I’ve enjoyed the magazine for years, although I’m not active in the trades except to work on our own house and help out friends working on theirs.
We had a new roof installed on our house at the end of June, this year. I was away for most of the job. The contractor has done work in the area, but the crew who worked on our roof made a number of errors.
1. They tore off the old roof but left on the old drip edge, then proceeded to put the new drip edge on top of the old. Of course the profiles don’t match, and the new drip sticks out about 3/4″ all around the perimeter of the house. When I called the contractor about this he said I was mistaken, that no crew of his would tear off an old roof completely and leave the drip edge on. When he saw that this in fact was the case, he tried to tell me that this would work out so well for the gutters because the rain would drop right in due to the extra 3/4″. Honestly though, it looks really sloppy.
2. Because of the smaller surface area on the new drip, the nails went in one side and out the other in many places. On several sections of the new drip edge you can see nail holes where nails have been pulled out, or nails are exposed because they never went into the deck in the first place, just the old drip edge.
3. We had an archtectural shingle from GAF put on the roof, yet some of the bags at the end of the job said Royal Sovereign. Contractor said that these less expensive GAF shingles were used to cap the roof. We have since found out from GAF that this is not the recommended procedure for installing a Ridge Cap. They of course recommend using the architectural roof caps that go with the shingle we picked out.
4. In addition to the nail holes in the drip edge we have found shingles face-nailed so that they are not covered by the next course, examples of what I think is called undernailing, cracked ridge cap shingles, damaged shingles, and two long stains on separate parts of the roof. I’m not sure what caused these, but they run from the peak to the edge of the roof, are about 1/2 in wide, and are visible from the ground.
Although the contractor has most of our money and had said that he wants nothing but happy customers, he does not want any letter written to him outlining these problems. He has even offered to put on a whole new roof if that’s what we want. (I don’t really believe this.) Our dilemma is really what to do: Do we ask him to send over a different crew to repair those things that can be fixed easily? Do we ask the him to come back, remove the new shingles as necessary so as to remove the old drip, then install new drip and new shingles again? What is the likelyhood that the ice/water barier will be damaged if we ask this to be done? Will this approach cause more trouble than it’s worth? Do we ask for some more of our money back? A friend of mine who does carpentry looked at the overall job and asked why we would want them to come back at all. Honestly, part of me feels this way, especially since the contractor has never answered my questions as to why this happened in the first place. Thank you for taking the time to read this and hopefully respond.
Replies
I am curious why he does not want a letter written to him? did you mis-state this?
It sounds like poor all around work and you should definitely not pay him any balance.
Unless the drip edge looks downright intolerable, I would not recommenmd tearing up just a few shingles to replace it right. That will cause you more problems for sure.
If the rest of the rof is as bad as you say, the only good answer is to replace it all the way from top to bottom..
You have any way of posting digital photos of this? and the stains? Soemtimes an HO is very concerned over what is a fairly minot thing and other times, the actual conditions are far worse than what is described here verbally. My sense from your tone of type (voice) is that you have been taken and he should be redoing this roof. With the other screwups, it would not suprise me if he deleted underlayment and I&Wshield too
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You need to write a letter and send it to him certified - receipt requested. Regardless of what he says, you need to document the problems immediately. The longer you wait the harder you will have proving that you alerted him in a timely manner.
I think in most states you are required to let the contractor have a chance to resolve the complaints and bad work.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
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Jeeze, I thought i was the only one hiring what i thought was a reputable contractor. I agree with the other guys, do NOT pay, document everything including dates and times of conversations and pictures if you can. I would test the waters with this guy first, don't forget that he's already shot you a line of.... If the job is in the condition that you say and state law requires you to allow him to fix than challenge him to pay you to supervise the re-work, or place a condition of a third party inspection. Of course he won't like this but if he's all about good work and customer satisfaction then he's got nothing to hide. if it's not done the way it should be by industry standards then at least you've given him the benefit of doubt and an opportunity to make things right. But no more money at all until it's done right.
I suggest you hire a roof inspection done by a certified person who can analyze the roofs condition and document it with pictures. If litigation is the end result an experts word and pictures will be better received than a he said- they said battle.
It will also point up whether repairs are adequate or replacement is required.
I wouldn't want the ugliness of that drip edge staring at me everytime I came home. If the stains could be eliminated and other poor shingle installs were a minimum, then I would re-do the drip edge even though the exposure on the first few courses would be reduced a little.
" I would re-do the drip edge even though the exposure on the first few courses would be reduced a little."More to it than just that---Once these shingles are sealed, it will be almost impossible to pull the first couple rows to do the drip right without doing more damge to above shiungles and compromising their life.
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Pif,
I hope you don't think you're talking to a greenhorn here.
I repair roofs 300 days a year so I don't need to be instructed how that needs to be done.
The roof was just finished so the removal in the early A.M. will be no sweat.
I know you are no greenhorn, but you specialize in slates and in roofs in northern climates. An asphalt roof in a southern heat can be so welded together you can never get it apart without damaging some of the shingles in upper courses. It can be impossible to make a repair like that to perform or to look as new, which is what he is paying for.
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The roof was finished at the end of June according to the OP, but nowhere does he say it's in the South.
Yeah...so...are we having an argument?I think we'd both loke to see the roof before saying anything for certain and we have both said so. Beyind that, any definitive advise is a waste of time for all three of us.
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
You spelled that wrong. I'm a serenity risk. Walter is the secrecy risk!;)
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
I second the suggestion to write a certified letter to the contractor, detailing each instance of poor workmanship, with photos. I'd back up digital images with duplicates shot on film, so that you have negatives. It's much more difficult to "photo shop" or doctor negatives so they should have more credibility in court, if it ever comes to that.
It would also be wise to have a neighbor or friend come over and review all the problems with you, both on the roof and in the photos you'll have. Small claims court or civil court cases are decided on who followed proper procedure in obtaining evidence and finding credible witnesses. A neigbor with some DIY experience will do fine, as long as you both make the inspection with care.
You haven't told us what state you live in so we don't know what consumer protection laws there may be to back you up. In some jurisdictions when/if a licensed contractor gets more than X number of complaints in his file, his/her license is suspended until he/she resolves all of them. There may be some version of this rule in your city or state.
In any case, it's time to find out what specific legal remedies are available to you and what procedures are required at each stage. This is good information to have as a homeowner so just consider it part of protecting your home and family.
One thing about the job you've described, the ridge. Not all architectural shingles have a good ridge cap system. Depending on the climate and other factors, the architectural cap shingles may break down and loose their surface mineral much more rapidly than the manufacturer intended.
I recently replaced all the architectural cap shingles on a five year old hip roof job, because they were very badly weathered. I cut new caps from standard three tab shingles of the same color.
This is not meant to let your contractor off the hook. You deserved to be given a choice, with his recommendations, before writing up the contract. If he didn't want to guarantee the labor for replacing the OEM cap, he could have stipulated that in the contract.
It sounds to me like he just avoided the whole issue and used the three tab shingles. I'd call that a good indication of where his head's at on customer service.
That's it from me; keep negotiations open but do the other things too. It'll keep the worry down to a minimum too.
Best wishes, Peter
1)--drip edge---------can't imagine why they would tear off the roof and leave the old drip edge in place----and then install new drip edge over it.----can almost imagine why they might re-use old drip edge-----but if they are going to install new any how-----removing the old is super easy------------at this point removing and replacing drip might cause more problems than it solves
2)---see number 1
3)ridge caps "royal sovreign"----vs. the dimensional caps
something to keep in mind---GAF wants you to use their special accessory caps------cause they are a high profit item. I am not really familiar with the GAF product line------but with Elk and Certainteed------ya really get raped when buying the accessory caps.----------In the case of Elk caps----they are especially thick and durable-----but the colors are a rather poor match for the field shingles-----and even in the best of circumstances they have ragged,un-even and un-attractive edges-----------certainteeds Caps are MUCH better------in fact on my own home I may use 50 year Elk Barkwood shingles------but Cap with Certainteed Heather Blend------because Certainteeds Cap matches elks color BETTER than the Elk cap.
other elk colors are better matched by of all things----owens corning supreme colors
for customers--I save potential arguments--like the one YOU are going to be in-----and simply specify and use the Reccomended accessory cap------but MANY times---a better match is available.
read your contract----did the contractor specify the GAF accessory caps-----because using GAF 3 tabs----is just about standard practice---I bet 80% of roofing contractors would have done the same thing.
4)-------low nails-----if this is a WIDE SPREAD thing---it's a pretty big deal potentially
if you found 3 or 4 on a 35 square roof----maybe not a big deal at all as it is easily fixable----in fact I often find old 3 tab roofs where the shingles curled under----shrinking the exposure and exposing nails---maybe 10-20------and they NEVER leaked----who can tell?---not a good situation though-------------
a) contractor has offered to replace the roof-----so why are we having this conversation??????????
b) expert inspection as recommended by someone else here( I apologise but i forget who)-----good luck with that. Perhaps it would work out--perhaps not.
due to some FHB articles i wrote on roofing----I now get several calls a year from lawyers asking me to be an "expert witness" in situations like yours-----------
no possible way i would get involved in something like this---ZERO benefit to me-----and even any potential fee would almost certainley be LESS than I could make actually working-----so involving myself in a situation like this would actually COST me money
Best of luck to you,
stephen
I use alternate ridge and starter shingles too. That is not a big deal.I'd love to see pitures of this, to evaluate objectively
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1- The drip edge thing is a mystery to me as well. I can't imagine any scenario where this makes any sense. It would be harder to install new over old than removing the old 1st.
2-Need some pics to understand the severity.
3-I've got no problem with using the 3 tab for a ridge cap unless the contract spec'd the hip and ridge accessory.
4-As mentioned earlier, one or two exposed nail heads are probably inevitable, although they should be fixed. Same for shingle and ridge cap damage. Something's bound to get scuffed, but they should be repaired.
Getting a roof inspection is often tough. You don't know who's buddies with who and who's enemies. If one of my competitors that I get along with inspected my work, the report would vary greatly from one done by someone that doesn't like me.
Give them a chance to fix their work. We can be of much more help to you if you can get us some pics. Good luck.
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"3-I've got no problem with using the 3 tab for a ridge cap unless the contract spec'd the hip and ridge accessory."Would it be typical to sepecify that they where using the cap's?I really don' tknow much about roofing practices, but if the contract said "reshingle with XXX lainate shigle, yyy series, zzz color" that is what I would expect. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.Anythig else would not be what is specified.It would be up to the contractor to specify that somethign different was to be used for the caps..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Tear off and reroof. All of it. That's what you paid for and that's what you should get.
If there was no spec, then the roofer can use which ever he wants. Neither is wrong, IMHO. But, if he spec'd the hip & ridge accesorry and substituted the cheaper 3 tab, then he's got some 'splaining to do.
I don't spec either one, but I use the H&R. I have seen it spec'd on other's contracts, usually as an upcharge item.
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
"If there was no spec, then the roofer can use which ever he wants. "Actually if it ever went to court I think that the roofer would be in deep dodo.To any layman what covers the roof is a shingle and if the contracts says xyz shingles then that should be what is used.The roofer, being the expert in this case, would need to make it clear to the layment (ie, contract) that the caps are separate and what is being used.I bet that is what Judge Judy would say.But it might be common practice to use other matching products. And in 99.999999999% no one every knows so it ever comes up. And it might be better. But that is not what the contract says..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
ACTUALLY,
Bill------------ if the case ever went to court---------the roofer would quite EASILY be able to make the case that using the substitute ridge caps was the usual and customary trade practice----he would EASILY be able to produce and endless supply of roofers to back him up------and almost certainley all the largest local roofing material suppliers would verify his position that it was usal and customary local trade practice.
this is a rare instance when you are thinking logically from one perspective-----but not necissarily factually.
the use of substitute ridge caps is SO well established that when ordering roofing I have to specify the specific caps I want----or the substitute will show up on the delivery truck-----and when ordering at the counter-----asking for the actual hip and ridge product is so unusual that the counterman will ask for clarification 2 or 3 times-------------" just to be sure----you want the ACTUAL hip and ridge cap?"
for the record---- I prefer using the actual hip and ridge product( I am in a minority on this)-----because I HATE cutting cap out of 3 tabs----man is that tedious.
As far as specifying the ridge cap on a proposal-----SOMETIMES I do that--if I REALLY want the job---and only after explainingWHY I am using that particular ridge cap----and how lesser competitors might skimp in that area-----but currently---selling roofing is like shooting fish in a barrel and I have no need to TRY to make a sale---- (i am scheduling for June of 2008 for major projects)
Best wishes, Stephen
"because I HATE cutting cap out of 3 tabs----man is that tedious."I'm the other way. I can cut three tabs into ridge faster than I can fold and break those ridge pieces apart, and I hate the way they look beccause they do no taper back under the lap of the next one which can look terrible on hips.I agree al points you made to Bill. When I was roofing, my proposals were far more specific than any of my competitors ever were - one thing thaat helped win some jobs - and I don't think I EVER specified what type ridge material would be used.
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Elk ridge caps have a backcut essentially.
Certainteeds do not
this summer i have,in fact, delegated producing ridge caps to my 18 year old son----- i usually have him snap apart the caps first thing in the morning when they a cold-----and come right apart.
it's worth every penney of the $25/bundle i pay for the hip and ridge---and the $12 /hour I pay AJ to process them----so I don't have to do it myself!!!!!!
actually, the HO might have a solid case against using 3 tabs for cap. if I remember correctly royal soveriegns are a 25 year shingle and the contractor sold the guy a minimum of a 30 year roof. I'm pretty sure GAF does'nt make a 25 year architectural. those hip and ridge break aparts are made to match up with the 40 year architectural versions.
somebodys getting short changed
if I remember correctly royal soveriegns are a 25 year shingle and the contractor sold the guy a minimum of a 30 year roof.
That's correct, but several years ago the Timberline (GAF's 30 yr dimensional) was a 25 year shingle. They changed the warranty but not the shingle.
The new trend is to sell a 30 year dimensional and a limited lifetime (what ever that means) dimensional. OC has discontinued all but 5 colors of their 30 year dimensional and introduced a wide variety of colors in their limited lifetime Duration shingle which appears to be the old Oakridge 50. There is no longer a 40 year dimensional.
Certainteed has also dropped their 40 year and has changed the warranty on their 50 year to a "limited lifetime".
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
might be a problem for somebody else-----but not us.
OUR minimum( base model) shingle is a 30 year shingle---either dimensional or 3 tab( Certainteed XT30)
we won't touch a 20 or a 25 year shingle-------and as close as i can track it has been17 months since we handled a 3 tab shingle either.
once this local hail storm frenzy is past-----i will probably eliminate 30 year shingles as well---I am already half way there as it is.
stephen
Btw----- i can't comment on the GAF product line-------we don't use it and i am not familiar with it-----.
i will probably eliminate 30 year shingles as well
Per my previous post - that's being done for you.
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
I haven't seen any sign of Certainteed eliminating 30 year Landmark----but i would be fine with it if they did----delighted in fact.
stephen
They've done away with the Landmark 40, which I've never even seen anyway, but I keep getting warnings about avaliability of certain Landmark 30 colors.
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
I get no rumblings on the landmark 30's
what I do GET muttering about-----is the unlikelihood that Certainteed will continu to make TWO seperate color versions in the 50 year--lifetime series--the regular colors and the "enhanced colors"------next probably only the "enhanced" colors will be made.
my problem now----is that since GAF bought out ELK----next year perhaps ELK will no longer have a product line-------------
and i have a condo developement I have been re-roofing for 10-12 years---with ONE building remaining for next year---out of something like 25 buildings
i may have to buy some 30 year Elk barkwoods this december and store them untill spring so i can match the last roof next may
stephen
You put ridge on an archy roof by dual plying the piees to build the thickness for appearance, with the result that you double the overage of the ridge pieces. You fould use a 15 year three tab and still get a thirty year ridge so there is no great importance on that item
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You say you were away for most of the job. Did you or a neighbor actually see them strip the entire old roof?
Frequently enough, if the old roofing and drip-edge isn't removed.......new drip-edge will be installed just to hide the edge of the old roofing.
new drip-edge will be installed just to hide the edge of the old roofing
Blasphemy! Who would do such a thing?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I don't, but have encountered this many times. If a larger size of gutter-apron is used, it's a very effective way to hide the edge of the old roofing.......and the old drip-edge. Can easily fool a novice when bidding a tear-off at a glance.
I'm thinking that perhaps this crew did some tear-off while the HO was present and when he left, they just started shingling over on the rest of the house...knowing he wouldn't be back for some time. Since they were aware that they'd be installing new drip to hide the old roofing where no strip had taken place, they simply installed in the same manner on the freshly stripped sections for the sake of visual uniformity and thereby would stand a better chance of pulling off the partial strip deception.
This crew could not only be attempting to deceive the HO, but the GC, as well. Without knowing more about the relationship of this GC and that crew, who's to say with certainty based on what little info we have? Not saying this is what happened, but rather pointing out that it's a definite possibility given the highly irregular double drip-edge for no other easily conceivable reason.
HootOwl,
Your scenario makes the most sense to me too. It even fits the contractor's attitude and the concerns he's expressed afterwards.
Seems like the best remedy for the homeowner is to take the contractor up on removing and reshingling the entire roof.
As someone else said: Stay home and keep checking the job. Take lots of photos.
Yup.
Also sounds to me like the GC was completely surprised when he saw the double-drip for himself. Seems as if that GC was actually in on an intent to deceive, he woulda supplied that roofing crew with a drip or gutter-apron capable of totally hiding the old drip. Obviously he didn't cause the old drip is yet easily visible.
This kinda shid goes on all the time.......unfortunately. Most often when the HO ain't around. Been there, seen that. Been threatened a few times for having turned 'em in, too. Our house ain't burned down yet though. :-)
Sounds like you got a crew of day laborers from Home depot parking lot to me.
Any of them speak English? Obviously they've done enough roofing to be dangerous, but that doesn't make them roofers.
Tell him to start over, and stay home and babysit this time.
Pictures pictures pictures, it may be worse the second time.
Joe H
Went though the same thing awhile ago, trusting a roofing contractor to re- shingle our roof. No offence to any contractors but it seems hard to find anyone around our neck of the woods that's interested in doing quality work anymore.
We had missing extended drip which they tore off & nail hds showing where they were low of the nailing strip.
After going over this with the contractor they replaced the missing drip & tore off the shingles from the cap to half way down on the front of the house & replaced them. First they tried to replace the shingles where the nails were showing & made a big mess tearing & caulking up remaining shingles.Thats when - - it hit the roof!!!!
Finally it got done its been about two years,yes with leak repair!! Its just to bad things can't get done right the first time.
It leaves the home owners with a bad feeling about the whole job,wondering if it will ever be right until he or she dose it right the next time around.
Edited 7/19/2007 1:23 pm ET by workdog2
Sounds like a 'Hit and run job' to me.
Chuck S