All
We went to replace a window at this condo, condensation had rotted out the sash.
I expected to possibly replace the 2×4 sill and maybe some OSB. But this is what I found.
We also found this under the west side where we didn’t take off the siding.
The whole wall (30′) was bad. Rot starts at about 6′ up and at about 2′ off the ground the OSB was soaking wet in places.
When we pulled the FG aside we could see that no vapor barrier had been installed.
Upon further discussion with the HO, the unit ( built in the early 1990s) is built over a crawl space. The unit has always had high humidity, and a couple of years ago they installed plastic over the floor of the crawl space dirt. I could see moisture forming on the bottom of the plastic in the crawl space.
I posted this to
a. just post pics and talk about the problem
b. seek advice on how to remedy the problem
This is a condo and part of an association. I have pulled off the job and I am waiting for the association president and or an insurance adjuster to come look at the situation.
If I am going to redo all this OSB then I am going to need 4-5 more windows(3 week lag time) maybe a door.
I don’t know who pays for the work. The HO is an old family friend and will make it right.
But the other walls are probably bad too, as well as the unit next door.
To install a vapor barrier from the outside, I am inclined to cut XPS (Dow board) and fit it between the studs and then foam them in with Great Stuff. Then reinstall the FG (or new) then reinstall new OSB.
I would apprieciate your thoughts.
Rich
Replies
Rich,
Help me out here....what does FB stand for? What is the 4" round opening...venting? What state and area are you working in?
Paul in Seattle...where moisture is always a problem.
I answered my own question...first I meant FG rather than FB...I guessed Fiber Glass as in Insulation. Paul in Seattle
Paul
Click on my name and my profile will pop up.
Area is NW IA.
Hot humid summers.
Cold winters.
Rich
what a mess,i bet all the units look the same way.could be lots of work here.
is what caused this ,no vapor barrier on the inside so moisture heads out,then hits foam board on the outside so it can't evaporate?
looking at this makes me real lerry of using foam on the outside of a wall.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
From what Cargin said and the pics, I get the impression that there is no foam on the outside, just the OSB and old "Amoco" wrap. If the walls inside have a vapor retarding primer or a couple of coats of latex paint, that would slow the diffusion of water vapor into the wall cavity adequately. I see the problem as one of a few things.1. It could be a poorly sealed interior wall, with lots of leaks of humid inside air into the cavity. If the occupants do a lot of cooking or any other activity that generates a lot of humidity, the leaks will let that moisture into the cavity, bypassing any vapor retarder.2. The source of moisture could be wicking up of ground moisture from the crawl space up through the sill, if there is no sealer over the concrete. I do wonder if the damage was caused before the sheet of poly was put down a few years back and that part of the problem has been solved. In any case, the ground sheet ought to be revisited, seams taped shut, sealed to the crawl space walls.3. The bottom of the walls don't look awfully high above grade, making me wonder if rain splatter is a source of water intrusion. On the other hand, he said the damage starts about six feet up, IIRC.4. Continuing the last thought from 3, if the damage starts part way up the wall, are the windows the problem - not flashed correctly, especially at the head? [Edit: the first pic seems to show the OSB discolored from sill to half way up the wall]5. Is there water coming into the cavity from the roof, gutter backup, etc? [Edit: again, 1st pic seems to show a good overhang]Anyway, once the source of the water is identified and eliminated (if not just diffusion from the inside), the thought of laying pieces of foam against the DW and sealing with can foam strikes me as both introducing a VR inside and sealing against air leaks, both good things for IA climateEdited 10/26/2009 5:37 pm ET by DickRussell <!-- DICKRUSSELL -->
Edited 10/26/2009 5:39 pm ET by DickRussell
dick
Thanks for the reply.
Unit is owned by a single man in his 80s, his wife died about 6-8 years ago.
He bought the unit in 1999.
are the windows the problem - not flashed correctly
Nothing in this area was flashed properly in the early1990s. But I don't see alot of damage coming from the top of the window.
I do see alot of damage in the middle of the wall assembly 6-8' away from any window.
Roof is decent. Probably no I&W. But i don't see stains starting from the soffit down.
Ice damming in our area usually shows up in the soffit with brown staining.
Unit is too close to the ground. definitely. Some vinyl siding(3'-4') was below grade on the 1st row.
Rich
Edited 10/26/2009 7:53 pm ET by cargin
Edited 10/26/2009 7:54 pm ET by cargin
With no dampness on the fibreglass, I'd be looking seriously at grade, osb off over the box and wicking up moisture from the outside.
Don't envy your hunt any.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin
With no dampness on the fibreglass, I'd be looking seriously at grade, osb off over the box and wicking up moisture from the outside.
I am considering that.
That seems like a long way to wick up.
But with the vapor barrier theory how do I explain the near perfect backside of the drywall and the dry FG?
Rich
larry
Arn't you new around here. Welcome to BT. :)
Wall assembly is Sheetrock, 2x4 studs with R-11 FG between the studs, 7/16 or 1/2" OSB, then Amoco House wrap, then vinyl siding.
No foam.
Sheet rock was dray and clean, FG was dry.
Rich
didn't go back to the pic,but didn't it have that 1/8 foam fan board everyone throws under vinyl? seems it wouldn't let moisture out.the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Didn't see foam board in any of the pictures.The fanfold is only (supposed to be) used when siding over existing siding. It's sole purpose is to provide a flat surface on which to hang the new siding -- it has negligible insulation value.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Larry
No fan fold foam board on this job.
Rich
I am curious to know the answer for a previously asked question:Was this house power washed repeatedly mostly on the north side?North side would be where mildew grows on siding. That is where power washing would be concentrated. Water gets driven behind the siding and behind the wrap from poorly detailed openings like doors and windows.I could not see any mildew on the north side of the siding. Was it washed away? I would EXPECT mildew on the outside in a humid locale and north side.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil
I will ask the HO the question.
I believe than answer is no, it was not.
This is a retirement community enviroment.
Hose it down maybe, power wash, out of their league.
And I doubt the hose down either.
The power wash does not explain the extreme condensation on the windows.
Photo #1 SR in the middle of a wall.
#2 SR under window
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Rich
That drywall being so clean, does make me think the water come from outside. Unpainted drywall paper is so prone to mold/mildew. Just by appearances it looks like the OSB sucked up the moisture from outside. Capillary action drives water upwards when it is sandwiched between things like OSB and house wrap.Even a garden hose with a hose-end sprayer bottle of "mildew-B-gone" spray could drive water behind the siding and into it via window openings.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
I just got off the phone with a building envelop specialist. You have to pay for his advice.
He is the guy the insurance companies call in to figure out who is responsible for damages.
we call him inspector gadget, but he is a nice guy. But he has losts of tech stuff to read moisture in walls and heat loss.
He said "Let me ask you just one question " Do they alot of condensation on the windows"
And the answer is yes, excessive.
He had not even seen the pics yet.
He mentioned that it sounded very similar to another situation in Ames, IA a year ago.
He did not give me an opinion yet, we are just setting up the 1st on site meeting next week.
Below is a 2 pic of 1 window.
3nd pic is of the return air system in the crawl space.
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View Image
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Rich
That interior picture tells a LOT more about the problem.It could very well be (as stated previously) the interior moisture as vapor gets into the gaps in the drywall around the windows and is driven into the wall cavity where it condenses on the inside of the house wrap.Might be a multiple issue problem, from within and outside. House (and sheathing) is too low to the dirt grade, plus interior moisture driving into the wall against the house wrap.Have you thought about asking the neighbors if you could peek inside under their siding?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil
Inspector Gadget is going to look at all the buildings and give recommendations.
We are beyond the statue of limitations (according to him) and now we just need him to advise them and myself how to remedy the problem.
I have already looked under the siding in 4-5 places on the east unit of this duplex and the problem is similar.
Most of the other buildings are part basement/part crawlspace.
I have seen Thrasher systems in some of the basement units.
I have mentioned multiple times that I believe there are multiple moisture intrusion problems. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=125923.82
Rich
Edited 10/29/2009 6:32 pm ET by cargin
is there a humidifier installed on the HVAC system...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
humidifier installed on the HVAC
No
Electric heat
Rich
bulk water from the exterior...
water migrates to interior...
water evaporates into the interior and recondenses on the windows..
water pools to the bottom of windows...
the rest of the story is in the pictures...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
I'm sorry to inform you that you are backing the wrong horse. :)
I just did a repair on a 10 year old mobile home trailer.
Vinyl siding, no housewrap. NW corner of town no protection, very minumal overhang, no gutters. Just bare OSB under the vinyl siding.
Some of the vinyl siding was poorly installed so there was barely enough overlap on the horizonal seams.
Some minor staining on the area where the seam was exposed but otherwise the OSB was in very good condition. I worked on all 4 sides all near the bottom.
If I had worked close to the windows I know that I would have seen some damage under the J-channels.
Sorry no pics.
Rich
Edited 10/29/2009 8:18 pm ET by cargin
Moisture droplets on the underside of a crawlspace VB are normal - it's doing it's job.
What I can't figure out is why my 1925 remodel in Indianapolis (relatively close climate with IA), which has no vapor barrier or house wrap (it does have very, very old building paper), but does have blown in cellulose, has no moisture problems whatsoever.
That's because it has building paper, not housewrap.
These guys aren't cooking with propane are they?Jeff
Jeff
These guys aren't cooking with propane are they?
Are you asking me?
If so, no it is an all electric unit. single man in his 80s. He probably cooks very little.
Or do you think the guys here on BT are huffing the propane.
If so don't light a cigarette. :)
We had some kids in town that did that. Blew up the garage. Kids died too.
Rich
Going back and looking at all the pictures, I am having a tendency to agree with you--the problem is with moisture from the crawlspace. You've checked a couple other units, and they have problems on the north side, a little on the east, but next to none on the west or south sides. On the north side, it wouldn't be too hard to keep the OSB cooler than the drywall on the interior side. Therefore, condensation would take place on the OSB, not the drywall. It could then run down the OSB, looking like its coming from the exterior, when its really an interior problem.Also, looking at the pictures of the windows, the sash is bad, and the bottom of the framing is bad..but not the top. That isn't how water condensing on a window would work...it might rot the top of the framing, but not the bottom. Its highly likely that there is condensation happening there, not liquid water from the window. Dick
Huskies
The only side that was with out problems was the south side.
View Image
Rich
while wait till the jury returns...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
I have Insepctor Gadget coming to give us the "verdict".
He will come next week or the week after.
Rich
I am very interested..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Hope he arrives next week and not the following week!
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil
Same rot time, same rot station.
the saga continues
rich
IMERC
Vinyl siding is very loose and has alot of air movement behind it.
This is from
Water Managed Wall Systems by Joeseph Lstiburek from and article in JLC in March 2003
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/primers/bsp-063-water-managed-wall-systems/view?searchterm=jlc
"Foam sheathing drainage planes work well with vinyl, because you create the air space just by putting the vinyl up. Vinyl is also self-ventilating- I don't happen to like it's looks, but it performs beautifully."
From Building Science RR-0410 Vapor Barriers and Wall Design
Vinyl siding Approximately 40 Perms due to air leakage
Wood siding approximately 10 perms due to air leakage
Tar Paper Apprx 30 perms
Housewraps Approx 5 perms - 50 perms
OSB Approx 2 perms
Plywood Approx 10 perms
I mention all this to point out that vinyl sidng should be pretty good at drying out a wall assembly. And from my experience it is pretty good at sheding water, except at the windows and doors.
And through out the discussion we seem to be conflicted about the housewrap. Either it is very permable ( if it supports our view that the external water is getting past it) or it is very impermable (if it supports our view that the internal vapor gets trapped by the HG). :) :)
Rich
I don't know this particular housewrap, but there are several that allow vapour to pass through, while stopping liquid water.As for the Lisiturbek ref - that is generic, while what you have is specific. I keep going back to the photos where you see signs of liquid water trapped and moving horizontally between the vinyl and the wrap. If interior condensation, that water would be under the wrap, not over it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Depending on the conditions at a given time, you could have moisture coming through the housewrap and condensing on the back of the (cold) siding.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Yeah, I am not certain enough to make a case exactly where the moisture is coming from, but contrary to the statement that most vinyl fits loose enough to allow moisture to dissipate and drain, the signs behind this vinyl are that it is tight enough to be holding the water.I suspect that is what IMERC had in mind when he asked how hard it was to peel the vinyl. If it was stretched tight up, it might be more likely to have had that snug fit to the wall behind to be holding that water there.Someone - was it Mac? - said it was a bad combination of a lot of different things all compiled.The fact that south side has little problem is an indicator that condensation is a major factor.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There's a difference between water "hanging" behind the vinyl because of capillary action in the narrow space between the vinyl and the house wrap, and water "pooling" behind the vinyl. I don't see any signs of water pooling. And the "hanging" water is totally consistent with condensation.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I agree with that, but if it is outside the wrap, the source is exterior, if it is inside the wrap, the source may be the condensation from crawl space. It looks to be exterior, IMO
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If the wrap does indeed let water vapor through, the moisture on the outside is easily explained by water vapor passing through and condensing on the vinyl.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Piffin
I don't know this particular housewrap, but there are several that allow vapour to pass through, while stopping liquid water.
Most of the woven poly HW are about 14 perms.
Tyvek is 58 perms
Plastic vapor barrier is .1 perms
that is generic, while what you have is specific.
My point is that vinyl is very loose with lots of air movement behind it. Lisiturbek's comment is that vinyl siding is so loose that it is almost a drainage plane without installing furring strips.
of liquid water trapped and moving horizontally between the vinyl and the wrap. If interior condensation, that water would be under the wrap, not over it
I think the HW had lost was so bonded to the OSB from all the moisture trapped under it that it had lost all effectiveness. By the time I looked at the wall the HW was only functioning to trap interior moisture.
Lisiturbek has done other articles detailing how HW lose their ability to shed external moisture when they get bonded to the siding. The article was concerneing mostly stucco and recommended 2 layers of felt.
Rich
Piffin
I bought a couple of humidty meter devices to measure the unit in question.
CS and unit had 65% humidity.
Same day my office has 50%
I left one unit int the van overnight.
It was reading 98%.
I set on the sidewalk and it went up to 100%
Right now it is in my office reading 48%
At 98% humidity everything outside has dew on it. Under the siding on the north side the HW is not going to dry out very fast. we have had rain or drizzle 4 days out of 7 for the last 6 weeks. Farmers are a month behind and pretty worried.
The damage is old. The water on the outside of the HW at this time did not casue the damage, but it is a clue. You are right though, there are alot of butlers in the mystery.
Rich
Like I said earlier, you have to measure temperature at the same time, and then consult a dew point graph to determine dew point. It's dew points you need to be comparing.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Dan
All I know is that every thing I touch this morning outside is wet.
Every surface.
And it has been that way for weeks. We havebeen roofing for the last 6 weeks.
We either have heavy dew or frost.
I am just trying to explain the moisture on the outside of the HW for Piffin.
I would have to be there with temp reading and humidity reading the day of the picture to know for certain.
Rich
Yeah. I'm just saying that the RH measurements alone don't really provide much useful information, except when RH is near 100% you know there will be dew.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Ok - my bad. I asked too many questions.... Here is what I think - minus the answered questions. Very damp CS. Why else would they retrofit with CS plastic? CS plastic is run all the way up the foundation walls, (very bad building practice)channeling moisture from the ground up into the perimeter framing. As a result foundation is very damp and since air can't flow through the subfloor the easiest path up is the outside of the building envelope - the sheathing - viola - the building rots from the bottom up. Contributing factor - house wrap that doesn't breath properly.
Matt
CS plastic is run all the way up the foundation walls, (very bad building practice)
Do you think so?
I would try to find some way of sealing the plastic to the block wall. One method would be to run it from plate to plate.
I guess you could fasten it to the block with term bar or furring stips.
This CS plastic is just loose laid over the dirt.
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Sorry I have not posted all pics. Little trouble there with the Xs and concerns for the dail up guys.
I pulled this back slightly to show moisture. I have another pic that shows droplets just under the FG batts.
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Rich
Rich
Sorry - I was probably impatient...
is the CS vented to the exterior?
So, the CS plastic is not run up the foundation walls?
Matt
is the CS vented to the exterior? NO Also the floor is not insulated.
So, the CS plastic is not run up the foundation walls? NO
Rich
Edited 10/30/2009 6:49 am ET by cargin
on the last pic in your .149 post, it looks like plastic or insulation is run up the foundation wall.... what am I looking at there (but not understanding)?
Also in another pic it looked like maybe there was foam sill-seal between the foundation and the wood mud sill. Is there or not?
Edited 10/30/2009 7:45 am ET by Matt
Matt
on the last pic in your .149 post, it looks like plastic or insulation is run up the foundation wall....
That is fiberglass batts with a white plastic backing. FG to the concrete block side. Similar to what they use in commercial steel buildings.
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Rich
In the last picture I see a path for moisture to rise through the fiberglass and exit right at the sill. The plastic on the ground traps moisture under it, and needs to be sealed to the foundation to hold the moisture in. It's possible that it's not sealed and the fiberglass is simply letting the moisture rise where it can exit under the sill and become trapped under the siding. I saw several places in one of your pics where the sill appeared to not be sealed.The low elevation could also be allowing ground moisture to rise up under the siding.
Dam
The moisture from the ground or snow is a much greater threat to the OSB than moisture that rises thru the sill connection.
When it rises thru the sill it hits the outside air. It can go out or up.
You guys are forgetting that the CS plastic has only been in place for 1-2 years.
For the 1st 15 years the CS could vent to the living area. Remeber the return air that was hanging loose.
The furnace was getting all it's make up air from the crawlspace. There was only on return air duct cut in one wall. 2 stud bays 3.5" x 14.5". 101 sq inches, not even 3/4" of a square foot of return air.
Not that it mattered after the return air metal fell down.
Rich
In this picture, there is a cob web in the upper right area of the joist bay against the band joist.
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You may already know, spiders like to build their web in drafts of air movement. They figure it will snare some flying food. The black area behind it could be dirt and/or some mold/mildew further showing where the CS air went.
That air most likely went out above the band joist. Some could go into the stud wall cavity if the sheathing does cover the wall plate and band joist. Any carpeting in the house that has/had black marks where the carpet meets the wall plate?
P.S. Are you able to get any work done in between answering posts in this thread? :-)
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil
We are putting a access door on a crawl space of a modular home with no gutters.
Trying to get a tile guy to do a shower. We did the tear out and will prep the walls, he has to pour the base and tile the walls.
Putting a steel roof on a garage. Waiting for an electricain to change the service entrance
Working with rotten 4x6 deck (rotten at ground level, set in concrete) posts on a 2nd story deck. And some rotten deck boards. His wife just had back surgery.
We have 2 more steel roof jobs to do.
And I have to figure the price on this disaster. And Order windows (3 week lag time)so that I can work on this before Christmas.
And I have another window job/order that I am trying to get the go ahead on. But the farmer is in the field.
It rained all day yesterday. It is drizzling now. But clearing.
The metal roofs are very wet and slippery under normal conditions until 10 or 11 AM.
Trying to get a check out a church treasurer (who lives out of town) for a roof job.
So I have been doing office time and watching the weather. and trying to keep :)
Black stuff is mold/mildew. no black marks on the carpeting that I know of.
Rich
Matt
I only have one pic of the sill to black connection and I don't know if there is sil seal or not. This may have been built before foam sill seal. We used to use a black plastic stuff with some type of FG in between the plastic.
I think it is irrelavant anyway. Water vapor is going to pass thru the wood framing to the outside.
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Rich
Sill sealer serves 2 purposes - 1) to keep moisture from the cementous foundation from wicking up into the framing wood. and 2) in the case of a sealed & conditioned CS - which you kinda have, is to actually air seal the connection between the foundation and the framing (mud sill). Where air flows, moisture vapor flows. A side benefit of sill seal is that it helps keep bugs out. If there is none, I just see it is another nail in the coffin.
I haven't see the pre-sill sealer you spoke of but what I've seen was tar paper, sheet metal, or black plastic. None of these sealed air flow, but then again back then we weren't building conditioned crawl spaces.
In that last pic I can see that the OSB sheathing is in contact with the foundation block. I'm constantly ragging on my framers about leaving a small (1/8") gap between the top of the foundation and the bottom of the wall sheathing. I might even print some of your pics to help them understand. Actually - I think I'll E-mail them to the guy in just a minute.
From what I see this builder gave zero thought to moisture manangement. Heck - I'll bet $100 of Piffin's money ;-) that there isn't any damp proofing on the outside of the foundation either.
Edited 10/31/2009 7:44 am ET by Matt
And a seperate post to make it stand alone:
I think the major causes of 'your' rotten OSB wall sheathing is: 1) a poorely detailed CS. 2) OSB wall sheathing touching the damp foundation; the moisture is wicking up into the OSB. 3) House wrap that isn't allowing enough drying.
Above, 1) is the primary moisture source, 2) is the conduit (coupled with #2 below) and 3) is the cork at the end of the pipe.
A few other contributors are: 1) lack of flashing at the exterior of the building envelope. 2) mud sill setting right on damp masonry foundation and leaking air.
Bob: do you have any thoughts about crawl space plastic and running it all the way up the foundation walls and fastening it to the mudsill?
I wouldn't go there for fear of liability. I would wait for them to ask me and get waivers.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<sigh> Yeah, if you just look at it... somehow you'll get blamed for something that happened before you were even born.One could prompt.... "Hi Mister Neighbor. Would you like me to have a look at your house to check if you have the same problem? Sure, just sign here to give me permission to look".
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Piffin
have already looked under the siding in 4-5 places on the east unit of this duplex
I had the association president and 2 board members with me.
The association is responsible for exterior repairs.
Rich
Edited 10/29/2009 6:37 pm ET by cargin
The window damage is obviously due to condensation on the window surfaces. You can see that the sash is badly damaged -- the wood sashes in our windows (southern MN) don't look 1/4 that bad and they're 33 years old.The ductwork is a fright. It's amazing that any air circulates through those flex ducts. And if the return's been open like that forever then it was pumping moisture from the crawl into the house.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
The second picture is obviously either leakage through the window or condensation on the inside of the window that's dripped through into the stud cavity. A bit of a red herring with regard to the bigger problem.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Dan
or condensation on the inside of the window
That is my opinion.
Rich
north side of the house...
no sun..
exterior mildew build up...
break out the hose/pressure washer and clean this mess up...
what are the flashing details on the window???
WTB that the bottom corners let in a substanial amount of water..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
the hose/pressure washer
Put down the garden hose theory and back away slowly and nobody will get hurt :)
Rich
look to these details...
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Wow.
Novice here and it scares me the damage that vapor can do. I'm in a different climate so I'm naive but curious. Isn't this an example of a "vapor-open" wall assembly that is supposed to breath both directions? If so, the concept didn't do so well there. Is this type of wall assembly common practice there?
Any source of above average inside humidity?
Are they studs (4" or 6"?) in those first two pics still solid?
Edited 10/26/2009 5:06 pm ET by Righty_Tighty
Righty
Any source of above average inside humidity?
I believe and so does the HO that the crawl space was the source of the high humidity. Humidity seemed to be better after plastic was laid over the dirt floor of the crawl space a couple of years ago.
Common practice is to install 4 ml plastic vapor barrier over the studs on the inside and then sheetrock.
Plastic is generally not tightly sealed. IMO
Rich
Edited 10/26/2009 7:38 pm ET by cargin
The concept of "breathing both directions" is bogus in this climate. The "vapor drive" is from the inside towards the outside 90% of the time, so there's no "drying towards the inside".
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
are you saying you believe the source of the vapour problem is the crawl space and that the inside of th ewalls should have had a VB?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Piffin
are you saying you believe the source of the vapour problem is the crawl space and that the inside of th ewalls should have had a VB?
Yes
Rich
I do not see any flashing tape at the head or jambs on those windows. Bet there isn't a sill pan either. This looks like mass water leaks to me that got behind the air barrier.
While
This looks like mass water leaks to me that got behind the air barrier.
Granted there is no attempt to flash the window. But what is the source of the water in this pic where I typed in the V.
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When a window leaks then the stain generally flows down and outward, like in this pic.
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BTW thanks for giving your input. I don't want to sound confrontational. I know that when I post to BT some of the best in the business are here to comment.
Rich
You don't sound confrontational to me! Did I miss something? Seriously,in a previous life as a boatyard owner, I've seen water do mysterious things. Defies the laws of physics!! My guess would be that water (condensation or rainwater) entered at the sills, followed a path created by the nailing hem on the siding holding the air barrier tight to the osb laterally, then wicked up the osb. Osb tends to act like a sponge once it gets damp. What does the interior side of the osb look like. Can't imagine the much water in the cavities without severe damage to th drywall. Just a WAG.
Yeah, it would be good to check closely right at the bottom of the inside walls (behind the baseboard?) for signs of the drywall getting wet. Might yield some more clues if there's any pattern there.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I wonder if the "V" is the bathroom?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Dan
Bathroom is on the west wall
This is the north wall.
Bedroom, closet and living room behind this wall.
Thanks for the input.
Rich
Looking at that long shot, one can see that there is a hint of a pattern corresponding to stud bays -- about every 16 inches the stain goes higher or lower. This pattern would not be seen with wicking, it seems to me, suggesting that maybe condensation (which can vary widely stud bay to stud bay) is indeed a major factor.You might check the area of the "V" inside for electrical outlets, heating ducts, or some other source of air leakage into the stud bay.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
All
Thanks to all.
I stuck my head into the crawl space and I used my phone/light to look around.
It looked like plastic covered FG on the walls and plastic covering the dirt. I did not check on the detailing.
The reason for doing the job is that the window had excessive condesation. It was rotten. The bottom sash came apart if you opened it.
All the windows are rotting but this was the worst. There is definitely more water damage under all the windows.
I pulled out of the job and let the boys take the pictures. I went to find the HO (having coffee at the cafe). I wanted to get to the association president and the insurance agent as quickly as possible.
Tomorrow I will take more pics and check on some of the details mentioned tonight.
The units lie fairly close to a water way. It's not a creek but ther is probably a 1' wide stream flowing most of the year. It will carry alot of water in a heavy rain.
Off to bed for this kid.
Thanks again.
Rich
Well, good luck to all involved. Though it could be a boon for you (or maybe not), I'm sure it's really sad for the HO, and I feel for him. Some contractor really screwed folks over good with this one.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Everyone loves a good mystery, but this is not what I'd call a good one.I'm going to have to wait and see the photos when I get to high speed connectionsometime later on today or tomorrow
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
when I get to high speed connectionsometime later on today
How much will it cost you to upgrade to a satelite dish and high speed internet?
I remember when I told the kids and DW that we didn't need DSL. Dail up was fast enough. Why do we need the internet anyway? :)
Now I use it more than they do.
I am constantly sending pics or quotes to and from vendors or HOs. It really helps with absentee owners.
Thanks for stopping in a looking at the problem.
Rich
I specifically prohibit house wrap on all of my projects and use 15# or 30# felt instead.
IMO this problem was caused by the housewrap and made (much) worse by the uncapped crawl space/high interior moisture.
Flame away.
Jeff
Edited 10/27/2009 9:06 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Jeff
IMO there are 3 possible sources of moisture.
1. Thru the siding and windows, and then thru the housewrap.
2. Wicking up from the ground.
3. From the interior. Water vapor passes thru the wall assembly, thru the OSB and then cannot or pass thru the housewrap. Or it condensates on the back side of the OSB.
I have ruled out the roof as a source because the stains would be reversed, from the top down.
Thanks for the input.
Flame away.
I have burgers and hot dogs. :)
Piffin means he wants to wait until he's off the 300 baud modem and is using his 1200 baud one.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
""The whole wall (30') was bad. Rot starts at about 6' up and at about 2' off the ground the OSB was soaking wet in places.""
Seems to be the wrong time of the year for that much condensation (... 2' off the ground the OSB was soaking wet in places."")
I could understand that with a high humidity in the interior and a cold exterior but not at the end of summer especially on the west or south side. I would expect it to be dry but water stained if it was condensation.
Leads me to ask about sprinklers. The grade is pretty close to the siding and it wouldn't take much for the concrete to get soaked enough to wick water.
Google up "leaky condo + BC, Canada" or some such.Almost done now but for years around here all you saw were tarped over buildings with multimillion dollar remediation going on.My immediate neighbour is a Building Envelope Specialist, took the certification because he was getting so much repair work on stuff like this. That is the kind of person you need on this.Anything I can add is just anecdotal but there is lots of info from all concerned on the Web, the why, the how, the who...one personal thing I will add is I will never, ever purchase a building with any form of house wrap on it unless that building is totally engineered from the inside out and the top down to have that #### as a component and it was the last building on earth that fit my needs. And it had better be totally inexpensive.BC is/was the leaky condo capital of the world for a while, product of bad codes, bad design and bad building...we now have world class building envelope code (on the backs of all those owners who had to remedy) and construction is mostly shingled building paper in place of plastic, under true rain screened sidewalls with minute attention to flashing.Yell about that all you want but that is the way it is...that house wrap stuff will kill a home unless the entire thing is engineered for it. Even then your siding install punches it full of holes.I'll bet my retirement fund that if the rest of the condos in that property have inspection holes cut into them, you will see the same process. We saw it on the news every day, every day for years a different town, a different project but the same story. I know people who lost thier homes because of it.You can't put a band aid on that, its total rebuild time.
I doubt if this has anything to do with moisture in the crawl space. There would be signs of excess moisture such as mold and mildew, warped flooring, doors sticking... inside the house before the osb could retain enough moisture to actually rot. I'm guessing it's an outside source. I have seen this where sprinklers were hitting the side of a house, and there wasn't proper flashing and caulking around windows and doors. I have seen comparable damage where there was a failed shower on the inside of a wall...but you say it extends 30 feet of wall. I would think by drilling minimal size holes on other parts of the building, moisture readings could be taken to determine if this is an isolated area, or is this only found where sprinklers are located... or is it all the way around..and begin to narrow it down.
If there is a sprinkler system...turn it on ...see where the water goes.
With this much water in the sheathing...I would think there is probably mold inside the wall cavity as well. Have you looked at the back side of the drywall $$$$$
dovetail
HO said sprinklers do not hit the house. He specifically keeps an eye on that.
Our town has alot of iron in the water. It leaves very distinct rust stains in the sprinkler pattern.
I saw nothing to indicate that was a problem.
Thanks for the input.
Rich
Edited 10/26/2009 10:33 pm ET by cargin
Does your "V" in the picture correlate to the location of the closet inside thew house?
You also mentioned surface water nearby. Possible that the yard actually floods at some point during the summer ?
If so what about high water in the crawl space. ( Although I would expect damage to be apparent in the subfloor from that much moisture.) Owner wash the siding with a hose? I am still of the mind that that is a lot of moisture in the wrong location at the wrong time of the year to be vapor driven, although the pics are of the north side and that may make a difference.
Life is Good
dove
Does your "V" in the picture correlate to the location of the closet inside thew house?
Yes the bedroom closet.
The building does not flood. But the waterway will spill on to the outer yard 60-80' away from the house for short periods during a heavy rain.
But when building in this area are built in low lying areas, it is not unusual for the basement and footings to have problems with ground water during the construction process.
IMO, in a water way like this there is usually higher levels of subsoil moisture. Henceforth I believe that the crawl space provides a continual source of moisture.
I have done weatherization in a number of old crawl spaces in NW IA and they are usually bone dry.
Rich
""Yes the bedroom closet."" This would lead me to believe even more in the idea that the water source is from outside not inside.( Or quite possibly from ground water being absorbed by the sill plates, rim joist etc.) IMO:
In general closets have poor air circulation and lower temperatures than the balance of a house. A high moisture problem from inside would be indicated by mold, mildew, dampness on the inside walls of the closet or the back side of the drywall, especially during the winter months.
On the other hand being as the closet has poor circulation any outside moisture would have a harder time drying to the inside of the house. Even high humidity outside air condensing on an air conditioned inside wall surface will be less where a closet is located because of the temperature difference between closet and more conditioned space. I could be all wet too.
Life is Good
dovetail
Great theory for 2' of the wall.
How about the other 28'. :)
Rich
Seriously ....
Lousy siding, bad flashing details and bad moisture barrier. The 2' of the wall simply helps support outside water intrusion, not vapor driven condensation.
If there is a bath along an outside wall open that section up and check for damage. If it is condensation from inside then you would find that to be the most damaged area I would think. Unless there is damage to the floor and to the interior wall surfaces of the insulation in contact with them I will go with the above thoughts.
There are also homes here ( and a lot of them ) built on poorly draining soil with standing water in dirt (mud) crawls for most of six months. Retro fitting sump pumps is a business here. Musty smell, yes, some mold in the crawl , yes, some rot to joists and floor yes, but nothing like the damage you are seeing there.
Life is Good
dovetail
Lousy siding, bad flashing details and bad moisture barrier.
Lousy siding, It's standard vinyl siding. Poor at keeping the moisture out at the windows and corners. But in the field it performs pretty well. And it had a 1' overhang with gutters.
bad flashing details I'll give you that one. But have you ever seen damage radiate uphill like that. Usually it radiates down and out like the pic already posted of another job.
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bad moisture barrier. I have never liked the woven HW.
I am seriously considering the possiblity of moisture wicking up. But that is an awfully long was for moisture to wick up a wall. 1" of wicking action, yeah I could buy that. But 6' up!!
Rich
Edited 10/27/2009 2:04 pm ET by cargin
Just offering my opinion.
I will be interested in what others have to say. Hope you get to the bottom of the mystery.
Life is Good
dovetail
Just offering my opinion.
And I value your opinion. I am sorry if I sounded like I didn't.
I've got some new pics.
Rich
Edited 10/27/2009 6:32 pm ET by cargin
this house has been pressure washed and more than once... or at least flooded with a hose...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
this house has been pressure washed and more than once... or at least flooded with a hose...
I doubt it. Why did he wash the north side more than the south?
Rich
more sun to the south... more subsurface heat to dry with...
power or forced water washing injects boat loads of water behind the siding... it soaked in instead of drying... snow pile up would stay longer on the shaded sodes...
between that and the damp crawl space... colaberation...
I'd ask about the washing and dig to see if there were different methods of construction between the affected and unaffected sides...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
dovetail
Here are some more pics.
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Stain on the plate is from the outside in.
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Rich
OK, the pictures of the inside of the wall seem to confirm the wicking (vs condensation) hypothesis. If it were condensation, moisture would pool at the bottom of the stud bay and the entire bottom plate would be water stained.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Dan
just wait till you see this pic.
This is from the closet area. When I removed the OSB there was no FG in the pocket that the framers made to have a nailer on each side of the wall. This could be the wall of the closet and the Bedroom on the other side. Closet on the left and bedroom on the right.
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Rich
There was a photo with liquid water under the vinyl back a few posts. Was that water between the vinyl siding and the wrap, or under the wrap?It looked like over the warp. If so, I have a theory on this.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
On the outside of the wrap.
Rich
Vapor condensing at the back side of the vinyl siding and no where for the water to go so it is being absorbed back into the OSB?
Life is Good
Is this the south or west side? Wall getting wet from whatever mechanism (condensation, wicking, bulk leaks) can be exacerbated on the sunny side. One of the mechanisms of moisture movement, IIRC, is water moves from hot to cold. Sun can drive moisture behind the wall cladding further into the wall.Steve
moogie
Is this the south or west side?
The main damage is on the north side. Unless text in the picture states otherwise.
Rich
Piffin
Here is what I think is happening.
House is always humid from the crawlspace. One of the other residents in the court told me that he has had water in his crawl. He is a retired Plumbing, Heating and AC guy.
He ran plastic from the sill plate, down the wall, across the floor and back up to the sill plate.
Then he installed a air exchanger set to a humidstat.
I think a some moisture is wicking up. See photo of east unit east side.
View Image
That is the second course of siding. Bottom course is 6" off the ground or less.
Some water is leaking around the windows, but i don't think that is the primary source of moisture.
I still come back to high levels of humidity and no VB and the moisture passes thru the OSB and is blocked by the housewrap.
As some one pointed out the if it was interior moisture the the plate should be heavily stained. It is stained, from the outside in.
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I also think the back of the OSB that is blackened where the FG was missing in the wall blocking is a smoking gun.
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The south side and to a lesser extent the east and west have the sun to burn off the moisture. Some moisture does get thru the house wrap and condensates on the back of the siding.
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I also checked a spot on the south wall just above the brick that was normal. sorry no picture.
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Rich
The staining on the plate is confusing. If moisture was condensing in the wall as frost (on the back of the OSB and in the FG) I'd expect the water to pool at the bottom of the stud pocket when it warmed up a hair, staining the bottom plate more or less uniformly.But moisture could be condensing onto the back of the OSB and (mostly) being absorbed directly into it (possibly because the humidity in the house is so freakin' high that you get condensation on the OSB in above-zero weather and it comes as water, not frost). Not much condensation is occurring in the FG. Some of the condensation on the OSB runs down the inside and pools at the bottom, but not enough to flood the plate, since the OSB absorbs it so rapidly. Once water gets into the OSB the crummy housewrap on the outside won't let it evaporate through very well, exacerbating the problem.The problem's worse on the north side because it's generally colder on that side with no sun. With the sun there's both less condensation to begin with and more of the condensation is driven off during daylight hours, so less buildup over time.The problem is more severe near the bottom since the bottom of the stud cavity is colder due to air migration in the fiberglass.Anyway, that scenario seems to fit most of the evidence. I'm a little curious about the staining pattern on the back side of the OSB near studs -- not sure what one would expect in the condensation vs wicking scenarios, but closer examination there might yield more evidence (or further confuse things).BTW, do you know what humidity measures (or did measure) inside the house? If it is/was as high as you suggest you could get condensation in the walls at temps as warm as 40-50 degrees outside.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
""I also think the back of the OSB that is blackened where the FG was missing in the wall blocking is a smoking gun."" Possible that the black staining(and larger/taller stain) being more prevalent at the closet is because the OSB isn't drying to the inside of the building because the closet is cooler and has less air circulation?
I still have a hard time with seeing water vapor trapped behind the vinyl and house wrap in a large enough quantity over the summer months to condensate into the water seen in the pics.
We just finished the hot season and unless the owner kept the inside frigid the vapor should have been dried out and be seen as a stain but not be wet. They didn't by chance just redo landscaping and pull a bunch of plants/bushes out from around the other 3 sides of the house did they ?
Any chance you are going to check out that retired plumbers unit for damage ? If the sites are similar it may tell a story . I also wonder what the underside of the roof sheathing looks like.
Edited 10/28/2009 2:10 am by dovetail97128
I was looking at the photo where there appeared to be liquid wqater still on the wraps exterior where you were holding up a vunyl. I could see the line where it was trapped, as well as horizontal dirt/mildew lines where the zig in the vinyl had been in direct contact with the wrap all these years. Those were to me, a sign that water had been traveling horizontally behind the siding and was very slow to drain down. I believe, but could be wrong, that the woven nature of that particular wrap will allow water to pass thru it when held to it for long.So My operating theory on this is that water gets behind the siding at the windows J-trim and at vinyl joints, but does not drain down iommediately, rather it stays held and travels horizontally sideways behind the vinyl, and ends up soaking into the osb and staying there.everything I see suggests to me an exterior source of water, whether from what I just said, or from the osb wicking water up from the ground.I noticed one photo having plywood instead of osb. is that this house or another example?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, that's consistent with condensation from the inside. If it were from wicking the situation would be a little better there than the adjacent areas where the the OSB was touching the framing, since the OSB would be able to dry towards the inside better if not touching framing.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
All
Here is a pic of Virg and the damage.
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He is the nicest old guy. My kids loved him as a newpaper client.
Virg flew over Germany on the B-17s out of London. I think he was a bombadier. He was not a pilot.
OK here is the east unit. I had not looked at that yet until today.
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These pics are under the triple window on east unit.
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East side of east unit 2nd course of siding.
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I also checked another spot on the south side and it was like this pic.
Rich
Edited 10/27/2009 10:15 pm ET by cargin
Is his last name Yossarian?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Dan
Is his last name Yossarian? No
Not sure you got the joke. Think:"Help the bombardier!""I am the bombardier.""Then help the navigator!"(But you may be a little young to have seen the movie.)
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
You should try to figure out why there is so much variability in terms of the amount of damage around the house. Does it have to do with how close the ground is, snow pack, exposure to wind, exposure to sun?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Dan
You should try to figure out why there is so much variability
I am working on it. I am asking you. :)
Rich
Rich , Whatever the source of the problem the place is looking like a demo and rebuild.
Is the OSB actually wet or damp?
If so is the insulation wet or damp on the inner surface?
In the pic with your hand holding the insulation back, is that the outside or inside face of OSB shown in the picture. ( It has a vertical stain that appears to match a stud, which would seem to be a condensation item. Stud being a weak point in the insulation envelope, therefore more prone to have condensation occur at that location.)
Also am I correct that the insulation is totally unfaced?
I have never worked around or with vinyl siding so I have a question for you . What seals the laps/butt joints on those horizontal runs.?
Life is Good
dove
I have to eat supper and then go to bible study.
Have at it.
Rich
Edited 10/27/2009 10:13 pm ET by cargin
dovetail
Is the OSB actually wet or damp? Yes the OSB is damp to soaking
If so is the insulation wet or damp on the inner surface? NO
In the pic with your hand holding the insulation back, is that the outside or inside face of OSB shown in the picture. ( It has a vertical stain that appears to match a stud, which would seem to be a condensation item. Stud being a weak point in the insulation envelope, therefore more prone to have condensation occur at that location.) that is the inside of the FG.
Also am I correct that the insulation is totally unfaced? UnfacedI have never worked around or with vinyl siding so I have a question for you . What seals the laps/butt joints on those horizontal runs.? The joints overlap by about 2" and the bottom of the siding has weep holes.
Rich
I just saw this thread. I read a lot of it but not all of it. I think I read all of your posts. BTW - on some of the pics, I get the red 'X' broken picture icons too. For example, all of the first set you posted. I have high speed access. Maybe my browser is too old...
I agree with others that the building seems to be rotting from the bottom up. If that is the case, I'm not sure that the vapor drive from the interior to the exterior theory is entirely consistent with the bottom up thing... Unless water droplets are running from the top down and therefore the bottom is more wet. Further to get that amount of vapor drive, it would have to be very humid inside and very dry outside. If so why would it be very humid inside? I don't know anything about the weather in IA, but I think you said it had been raining the last week? Doesn't sound like it's very dry outside...
Anyway, if you don't mind I have a some questions:1) Housewrap: Would you say that that housewrap is very breathable or not? It seems not to be. I haven't seen that brand but it appears to be a woven polyurethane fabric? Perhaps contact the housewrap manufacturer and say that you have a catastrophic failure of their product to function properly and they need to get a rep over there to check it out ASAP? Can't hurt.
2) the crawlspace: I know you mentioned some stuff about it, but I'd like to know more or, if you don't mind, have you further clarify what you already said: a) is the plastic vapor barrier on the crawl floor run up the sides of the foundation? b) If so how high? c) IS the CS insulated on the CS walls or on the CS ceiling? If the insulation is on the foundation walls and the plastic is run up the walls, in the insulation inside or outside the insulation? d) Is the CS vented or not? It looks like it is a sealed CS but I'm not sure. e) how dry (or damp) is the CS insulation? f) what do the floor joists in the CS look like? Moldy? Damp? Got a moisture meter? Can you take some pics of the CS, especially the foundation walls? Maybe you already did, and they were some of the broken pic icons (for me).
3) the OSB wall sheathing: might be hard to tell, but do you think it is more wet and rotten on the inside of the OSB sheets or the outside? IS the OSB touching the cementous foundation?
One thing I will say in general about the way the house is constructed: The siding is rather close to the finished grade. This happens a lot with slab on grade construction but in CS construction there should really be no reason that one can't have at least 8" (other than money). Is the CS foundation masonry (block) or is it concrete? If this is a retirement community, maybe they were trying to keep the foundations very low so there would be few/no steps into the front doors and from the garage into the house....
Edited 10/28/2009 7:40 am ET by Matt
Matt
Not much time .
Red X s are a mystery to me too. I have been copying off Picasa web albums. pics are disappearing.
others that the building seems to be rotting from the bottom up.
I could buy that if the damage was up 12" or maybe 24", but 6'? Why don't the east, west and south have as bad of damage.
Humidity is coming from the crawl space. I just stcuk my head in the CS and used my phone flashlight to look around. Moisture droplets under the the plastic ( just installed within the last 2 years). I will look closer today. And measure the humidity in the unit and the crawl space.
I'll take pics of the CS today and post them as Red Xs LOL
Units are design for handicap access and hence forth they are too close to the ground. The units have concrete patios on the back at the same level as the floor.
That means that 12" of the floor system have to be below grade.
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Got to go to work. Thanks
Rich
You realize of course, however you fix it, the powers-to-be will watching that building like a hawk for any future damage. You will be called back for any problem or perceived problem.
Good luck.rorger
""That means that 12" of the floor system have to be below grade."" What is the floor system anyway?
When you say <12"below grade> are you really meaning the joist are below the earth grade outside the foundation? Here, with a high enough water table that would put the joists in standing water part of the year or during extreme "wet" events.
Central heat with ducts below the floor? I have seen ducts flooded part of the year here from high water table. I don't recall seeing any foundation vents in the pics ..... Look carefully for any signs of water on top of that crawlspace plastic. ( residual silt or marks of puddles).
Life is Good
Well, having gone back and scrolled through the pictures I can see, it looks a lot like this event has several causes.
Having the sheathing touching the foundation wall and the lack of obvious sill seal stands out as an uh-oh.
The utter lack of flashing around the windows cannot be good, especially given the number of nail holes the J-channel around them usually requires. So, that's an uh-oh too.
If the c/s is as unprotected from vapor transfer as it sounds, that will be an uh-oh, too.
Those are all 'small' uh-ohs that likely are additive.
The dirt inder the siding also supports Marty's supposition that the siding has been washed. That could be a small uh-oh, too--just enough extra water to make a bad situation worse.
The crawl may be the leading component. Vapor in the c/s will rise on warmer air up to the underside of the floor system, and against the rim and all. Basic physics, there. On the north and east sides, those walls will be cooler, on average, in IA. Likely cool enough to be near DP, too. When the DP is not on the framing, it will be on the fondation wall.
Condensation on framing not good with an impermeable membrane on the outside. Condensation on the foundation in contact with the sheathing also not good. Sheathing in contact with the foundation on the exterior not good when the exterior conditions go through the DP, either.
But, that's just a guess on my part. One based on knowing a bit about humidity and how it condenses. (It's only 69% RH with a 63ºDP at noon today, here.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
New product name OSB = Oriented Sponge Board
I hate it.
Jeff
>> Why don't the east, west and south have as bad of damage. << Because of exposure to the sun.
I used amowrap when it first came out wrapping houses we framed. The stuff was tough as hell, and would never tear or rip off the walls, and always layed flat when we installed it. In one particular subdivision I also did the repairs to vinyl siding, and added decks etc. when needed, and I always noticed that the wall was wet behind the Amowrap and on top of the sheathing. I later learned this phenomenon is called "wetting" and is discussed by Joe Lstiburek at Building Science in his lectures. This may or maynot be happening here, but I am not a big fan of that wrap.I told the builder what we found, and we switched papers when he found something cheaper, but no better.Greg in Connecticut
I agree with Matt -- find a rep for the wrap product, and have them out to help you trouble shoot. Perhaps the wrap is less than permeable, or was designed for use in a different wall system? Something clearly is not allowing moisture to pass through the wall system.
What I can't figure out is why my 1925 remodel in Indianapolis (relatively close climate with IA), which has no vapor barrier or house wrap (it does have very, very old building paper), but does have blown in cellulose, has no moisture problems whatsoever. This place seems reasonable loose (as opposed to built tight) and positively pressured should shed the interior moisture with enough ventilation...have you checked the roof rafters for rot? Is there a way for moisture to vent through the roof? We had a friend whose roof was rotting from the underside because of an excessively wet crawl space. A sump pup and vapor retarder cleared up the issue to be of my knowledge, but there wasn't damage like this!
It doesn't sound like the crawl had a true vapor barrier installed, which would still allow moisture (especially if wet enough) to escape into the house. Without ventilation treatment, and with a house wrap which doesn't let the house breathe, all that moisture could conceivably be condensing inside the wall cavity or maybe it gravitates to the back side of the house wrap and stops there?
Good luck."It depends on the situation..."
Looking at the electrical box, is the staining/rot on the adjacent stud worse right at the top, where the knockout is in the box? Can't tell from the picture, since there's insulation in the way.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Take a long, narrow piece of OSB and stick one end in a bucket of water. See how rapidly it wicks upward.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Actually, the closet there favors the humidity-from-the-inside hypothesis. With the closet colder, the wall would be colder, and condensation would be more likely to form in the wall. The dewwpoint of the air in the closet would be the same as the rest of the house, and the relative humidity would be higher, so there would be the same or even higher "vapor drive" from the inside.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
You are correct... Thinking my analysis of the source is incorrect on this one. On second look I noticed stains around the electrical box in the last set of pics as well.
I have worked on Synthetic stucco repairs that didn't have this much damage present.
Total absence of vapor barrier or vapor barrier paint is news to me except in really older homes, I just can't wrap my head around that much vapor being present in the wall cavity.
Edited 10/27/2009 8:44 pm by dovetail97128
dovetail
second look I noticed stains around the electrical box
That is a tear in the paper around the outlet box from the construction.
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Rich
I was looking at the stud the box is attached to.
Looks as if the box itself might have had condensate on it and stained the stud.
Life is Good
> I could understand that with a high humidity in the interior and a cold exterior but not at the end of summer especially on the west or south side. I would expect it to be dry but water stained if it was condensation.Good point. Makes it seem that condensation may not be the (only) issue.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I assume this is located near you, in NW Iowa.
I'd say it's about 80% certain that lack of a VB (aggravated by the humid crawl) is the cause. The other possible cause I can think of would be wicking of moisture up from the foundation -- not that unlikely given the low foundation and the possibility that water and snow stands there much of the year.
If lack of a VB is the primary cause, you should see evidence of more moisture inside the wall than on the outside, including evidence that water has puddled at the bottoms of the stud bays. But this much damage wouldn't have occurred unless there wasn't also the serious humidity problem -- that MUST be addressed.
So you probably need to address the wet/humid crawl, the VB issue, and potential wicking, in order to have a sound fix.
But whatever you do, the foundation is so low to the ground that it's a bit worrisome WRT snow laying against the walls.
You might want to consider painting the inside with a VB paint, or placing a VB over the existing drywall and then covering with 1/4" rock. Neither will address the lack of VB at wall junctions, though.
On the outside, it MIGHT be a good idea to consider some sort of rubber flashing running up the wall a foot or so, to protect against snow laying there. This would, however, slightly worsen the missing VB problem.
(And, sad to say, it almost looks like the whole thing should be torn down and rebuilt -- it's just not a suitable design for that climate.)
Dan
I assume this is located near you, in NW Iowa
About 4 blocks away. :)
Rich
All
I posted the 1st time after lunch and i was in a hurry to get to another job for the afternoon.
I am going to post all the pics.
I hope it makes sense.
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Rich
All
More pics
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Rich
All
More pics
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Rich
Not really any strong pattern that jumps out at me and suggests more than we've already discussed. The rot below the left corner of that window appears to be a bit worse than elsewhere, but that could be due to unrelated leakage there, more infiltration from the inside due to poor sealing around the window, or simply the fact that the window blocks the upward migration of wicked moisture.Can't tell for sure from the pictures, but there's no obvious sill strip on top of the foundation. But the sill doesn't appear to be as rotten as the rim joist above it. (But just a tiny area is exposed, so could be different elsewhere.)Generally my opinion is weighing more towards wicking, but a minor contradiction of that theory is the fact that the bottom piece of OSB is separate -- one would expect the wicking to stop there, at least in spots, due to the joint. (But certainly, when the thing is rebuilt, that bottom area should be foam or some other material that won't wick.)
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
What a horror show.How was the vapor barrier in the crawl space detailed, mainly, what were the edges of the barrier sealed to?What I'm trying to get at is if the barrier was sealed to the foundation block, then crawl space generated moisture shouldn't have been able to get to the rim joist and wall framing. If the edges of the barrier were sealed to the framing, then the framing becomes a target. If the edges weren't sealed at all, the framing becomes a target.Other than that; 1) yup, wood framing is way to close to grade, and looks to even be below grade in some places.
2) Vinyl siding is not a minimal moisture barrier, it does tend to admit water.One other thing, it's obvious that the outside or exterior face of the OSB sheathing is trashed. It looks like some of the framing is too. But what might offer a hint is what the inside face of the osb in those same areas looks like. While there is long-term and quite extensive moisture damage to the sheathing, if you remove a sheet and the inside face is in significantly better shape than the outside face, it might help you towards determining if the majority of the vapor/water is coming from the interior or exterior.I might have missed this, but is there any insulation on the crawl space side of the rim board? Or is the inside of the rim exposed to the open crawl space? Could moisture have come from the crawl space, through the rim, and then gotten trapped between the house wrap and the osb? Just an idea.Man, those photos are just so depressing from here, I'd hate to have to see it up close and personal. What a bummer.
I assume the subfloor is some sort of OSB as well. Have you checked that around the outside walls to see what condition it's in? (Probably have to check from the crawl, or maybe in a utility area.)
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
got to see some of the pics....
might have been better off not gett to see them...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
What a mess. Do you happen to know the perm rating of that housewrap? I haven't seen that type before around these parts.... I'm leaning towards the absense of a VB on the interior... and possibly a low perm housewrap on the exterior.
Yeah, I was wondering about that housewrap too -- I don't see that brand much. And, though I'm generally a fan of housewrap in this climate, if there are wicking problems the housewrap would exacerbate it.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Doobz26
This is a woven polyolefin. Perm rating of 14-15
Tyvek is a perm rating of 58.
Rich
Perm rating of 14-15 isn't too bad. The thing is.. OSB is waaay lower than that. I can't remember off hand but i thought it was like 1. And with the sheets installed vertically there is no 1/8" air gap between sheets as if they were installed horizontally. Those stud bays are closed up tight. If interior moisture and no VB is the problem I'd think the attic would be pretty messed up as well. Have you been up there?
I stumbled upon an interesting study while trying to find the perm rating of OSB. Here is the link: http://www.energy.wsu.edu/documents/building/project/ComparingTheMoisturePerformanceOfWoodFramedWallSystems.pdf
I haven't read through it all... but it seemed interesting.
Edited 10/26/2009 10:57 pm ET by Doobz26
Doo
Thanks for the link
I went and read the summary.
The foam sheathing performed the best.
foam isn't a part of the problem wall but I thought it wa insteresting.
Rich
How many months of the year does snow lay packed against that wall?
With the siding as low as it is, the moisture could just slowly work it's way up the wall. 10 years of that would keep it moist year round.
Hard to believe the inside doesn't show problems.Pete
gotcha
How many months of the year does snow lay packed against that wall?
In Iowa that can be highly variable. Sometimes 3 months sometimes not at all.
We have alot of wind driven snow. So it depends on the direction of the wind where the drifts are.
Rarely does snow pile up against the side of the building like it would in the UP of MI.
We have had 4 weeks of almost non stop drizzle or rain. But this damage is much older than just the last few weeks.
Rich
If it's like here, some years there's no snow at all, other years there's a foot or two against the house from about Dec 10 until late March.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
As some of the others had suggested, the osb sheathing looks to be only 2 or 3 inches above grade. Looking at the photo's, the damage seems to be worse close to the bottom of the wall suggesting that the source of the moisture is from wet soil. Also from the photo's the, grade looks very flat which would allow water to stand/collect.
Have you pulled any of the sheathing off the see what if any damage has occurred to the framing? That might tell you more.
Is it possible that water is getting under the housewrap, and then wicking its way around? I found this article some time ago, it seems to relate here, too. http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/pdf/RainScreen.pdf
Read the sidebar on page 4, that's where this idea is discussed. Along with this, all the rain we've had recently could explain why the bottom is wetter....the top is finally drying out some.
I ask because I ran across a quite similar problem in my garage, wirh poorly flashed windows letting water get under the roofing felt used as wrap...taking out the sheathing and some studs in a rather similar pattern.
Dick
Howls
Thans for the link.
Rains screens and air spaces make alot of sense.
Quite at odds with todya's build it fast and cheap mentality.
Rich
what's wid the X's dude???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC
You are kidding me?
No one else has mentioned Red Xs.
Others are seeing the pics.
I thought I had that problem figured out.
Or at least a way around it
Rich
not kidding...
no matter.. enough came thru for me to see what's going on...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
something else...
describe in reasonable detail how easy or difficult it was to "peel" the siding...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Rich
describe in reasonable detail how easy or difficult it was to "peel" the siding...
What do you mean
It's vinyl siding.
I comes right off witha sipper tool and a flat bar for the nails.
It came off easy. Like vinyl always does.
Rich
in this pic the locking shoulder is dirty and water maked... the nail is rusty..
one cours up is a horzontal dirt line... more than mere condensation is at work here...
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in this pic... look at the lap... that mud was injected...
WTB the closer to the rim the more dirt and mud you'll find.. and the more pronounced the horizontal the silt line is...
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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
The staining/rust pattern is consistent with condensation on the back of the vinyl (and probably other scenarios). The staining at the lap is normal -- you'd see it anywhere after several years.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Those two pics are what I am seeing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
wind driven rain and a poor choice of house wrap???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
No one else has mentioned Red Xs.
Whole first third of the images are blank for me.
Never saw the "v" others were talking about. First visible images were in about the third "page" of this thread. And, some of those were missing, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm guessing your connection is too slow/flaky for the images.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
i've got about the slowest connection there is here and I could see images if I wanted to wait that long. So I don't think that is it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, the images were there and they went away. It may be the ones that he reposted in later posts.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
can you see the images in the .1 post?
not till #32 here....
#57 is a no show...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
I had pics on all most of my posts.
But today, I don't have any pics until post # 60.
I just love computers.
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Rich
DIIK what the deal is....
all in all I didn't miss much did I???
I like the keyboard pounder... tells all....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
View Image
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
pix are absent till #32 for me too...
so why does that happen???
it's the same on Mac as it is windoze...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
"windoze" - I like that one. And yes, I'm a victim. To tell you the truth though when it comes to computers I can let some anomalies go - especially when they apparently are not my problem. I really think it is just something to do with the way he posted them.
but nobody gave me a chance to sneak in microshid...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Something at the server end. Directory corruption? Who knows.
guess using this system for posting pics works about the best.. at least most of the time...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
My SD hunting pics are still up
Go figure
Rich
I don't dare....
something omnious would happen...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I'm on board with what Matt said. I just can't believe there is that much water damage from condensation. I've never really seen much condensation damage in anything I've taken apart. I find that it is always bulk water coming in from the outside. In this case, you have a number of factors - windows, doors, and that patio all seem to be open pathways for water to get in. Additionally, I think that the moisture behind the vinyl is getting pushed through the housewrap and saturating the sheathing (I'm not sure about the term - inward diffusion maybe?# possibly when the sun hits it. Once the sheathing is wet, it stays wet, because the plastic housewrap isn't letting out. Think of it like this - if you put a cheap tarp on your roof before a rainstorm, water will definitely make it's way through. It may only rain for an hour, but there will be moisture on the underside. That same moisture that accumulated in an hour will take days or weeks #if at all), to evaporate back through the tarp. I think this is one of those situations - the wrap is letting bulk water through and holding it there. Granted, I wouldn't bet my house on it, but it just seems crazy to me that there would be that much damage due to condensation moisture. I could be completely wrong though...
Booyah!
You have a double vapor barrier with the vinyl and plastic housewrap. Moisture is finding its way in but not out. Rebuild it with felt or Tyvek.
If the vinyl were effectively a second vapor barrier, millions of houses in the country would be in trouble. And the housewrap is not SUPPOSED to be a vapor barrier (though this brand is questionable in that regard).
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Yes, you're right.........and yes, they are. Specifically if installed over another vapor barrier. Do the research, look it up.
I'm with most here, I believe this problem is bulk water, not vapor or condensation.
The images are missing off the Google photo server for some reason.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
RE the no-shows, same here.
Not anymore.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I also am getting the dreaded "X" in the early pictures. Prospero limiting the amount/size of pics he can post ?
Life is Good
guessing your connection is too slow/flaky for the images
Nope, aDSL with a good connect last night.
Guessing that the hosting was not working.
OP did not attach any of the files, so mzinga/prospero probably only had the links as long as the temporary addressing lasted.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yep, as I posted later, the OP's server "lost" the pictures.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Well, if it had been triple X it would have come out as ####.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Now they're showing up as Xs. I'm guessing the server for the images is down.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Message from Google:The requested URL http://lh6.ggpht.com/_dIIURxT2Gwo/SuXkr4XltyI/AAAAAAAAEf4/UR52MMIopAs/s640/SANY3158.JPG was not found on this server.
I don't know if the OP removed them or the server's down or they timed out or what.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Edited 10/28/2009 7:22 am by DanH
this will please Rich till no end...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
jeesh - I'm getting like Piffin - all these posts to one thread.... :-)
Finally, regarding the theory of the lack of an interior vapor barrier at the sheetrock, if that is the case why does the rot appear to be worst at the very bottom of the sheathing. If the moisture source was coming through the wall cavities from the home's interior, there should be a ~1' band of relatively "unscathed" OSB at the bottom of the house. With the house wrap that doesn't appear to be breathing very well, if anything I'd say that the ability of the wall assembly to dry to the interior is a possible benefit. Otherwise I be the stud cavities would be filled with mold.
The colder air in the stud cavities is towards the bottom, so more condensation occurs there. Additionally, condensation forming high on the OSB runs down until it hits the sill, making the sill area the worst spot, and providing the moisture to rot the OSB on the rim.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
What's the moisture source? Indoor herb farming?
:-)
Matt
What's the moisture source?
The Crawl Space. Remember the excessive moistur condensation on the windows.
The open return air.
The 15 years without a vapor barrier over the CS soil.
Look at this pic of the CS soil
View Image
That looks to me like soil that used to be very wet and now has dried up quite a bit to form cracks.
This soil was not bone dry. There was somae moisture content to the soil.
Old (50-80 year old ) crawl spaces that I have been in are usually bone dry, and a powdery type of dry.
95% of new housing in this area is built over basements. Crawlspaces are only used for entry level housing or additions.
Rich
Its not condensation. Its not the crawlspace.
Although these may play a factor, if the crawlspace was the culprit, the joists would be worse off than the sheathing. I have NEVER seen this much damage due to simple condensation. Housewrap alone would be more than enough to protect against it. Adding another vapor barrier inside the house would cause the sheetrock to rot so bad, it would fall off of the studs.
You have two vapor barriers. Driving rain is getting in behind the window channels and possibly in the laps. Interior moisture and maybe some moisture from the crawlspace cannot make its way past two vapor barriers. That wrap looks like woven plastic to me. Vinyl siding also acts as a vapor barrier. Ask inspector gadget about double vapor barriers and see what he says.
If driving rain can do that, why hasn't it severely damaged 10 million other homes with vinyl over OSB?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
You are not making sense. I'll leave it at that.
Many people believe that two membranes of any type, no matter how close together or far apart, and no matter where placed, comprise the dreaded "double vapor barrier".
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Sometimes reality doesn't make sense. Taunton has several good books on the subject. I would recommend Renovating Old Houses first. I don't have the time nor patience to recopy the text on a posting board. You can find good information under the "Insulation and Weatherization" chapter where they discuss in fine detail the use of vapor barriers.
Vapor barriers are not only not required in my area, sometimes they are downright destructive. The one house that I took an interior vapor barrier out of, had mold and mildew on every wall but where there was no vapor barrier. There aren't many houses around here that have them.
I know in cold climates, they are required but just not here. Vinyl siding is a vapor barrier. I don't care if you call it housewrap or not, plastic is a vapor barrier. Now you have two vapor barriers, hence "double vapor barrier". Condensation by itself cannot cause that much destruction. Something is assisting it. Make sense? Good Luck!
Edited 10/31/2009 7:40 pm ET by excaliber32
Where in the world are you?The problems shown in this thread are in the same climate that I'm in (Midwest). Vapor barriers on the warm side (in winter) are just good building science for the North.Granted the vapor permeability of the HW is important. The project in question here should have been slab on grade (for accessibility) with VB below the slab, good interior VB, high perm HW, good grading and overhangs, gutters, good flashing, etc.
excaliber32, I think I've read the whole sordid thread and I think I'm agreeing with you. I am not claiming to be any kind of an expert on this subject but this house's windows are without flashing of any kind. I'm even pretty sure that the HW is cut and trimmed at the window and not wrapped to the inside. In such a case it would be easy for rain water, under the right conditions, too be sucked in behind the HW by the gallon and then run down to the sill and have no place to go. So it would be trapped there and soak up the OSB until it looks like it looks. If the rain/weather/wind is coming against that side horizontally, that means that the other side of the house is in a low pressure area so in a leaky house it would draw air out of those leaks on the leeward side. Now with rain smashing against the rain side and all the leaking holes sucking, gallons of water can be vacuumed in in minutes. And there is the fact that the south side is not affected. Doesn't that cast doubt on the CS issue? So I'm contending that the window flashing is the major issue but there are others as well and one being that it's so low in the ground. Mesic
Around here hard rain rarely drives from the due north, more often west or northwest. I would assume the same was true down there -- it's not that far from me. And, IIRC, the damage on the west side is significantly less severe than on the north side.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
One thing I think we all agree on - the water damage is due to multiple causes.
Yeah, I suspect that a lot is due to simple intrusion from the outside at the foundation, being so low to the ground. Rainwater can splash up 6 inches easy, and easily get under the bottom of the siding and into the OSB. But that doesn't account for the odd patterns seen higher up.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
When I build my houses I like to set the mudsill (or sole plate in the case of slab on grade construction) in 1/2". Then when the wall sheathing is installed it come out flush with the foundation (having a ~1/8" gap between the sheathing and masonry). A lot of people (including the builder of the subject house in this thread) don't set the framing in 1/2". This results in a 1/2" gap behind the bottom edge of the siding. As you say, water can splash up. I started a thread about this a year or 2 ago and it seemed like maybe 50/50 for doing it either of the 2 ways. I even tried a house or 2 without the 1/2" setback. In the thread, one self professed guru blasted me and said my method was essentially BS. He is no longer with us. I think he couldn't deal with hearing adverse opinions.
Yeah, setting the framing back would help, but the framing and OSB is still to close to the ground, at least without some sort of splash shield (and reasonable assurance that water won't pool on the ground to a depth of 2-3 inches in heavy rains).
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
All the vinyl siding I've seen has vent holes in it. I don't know, maybe some doesn't but I haven't seen it. Also, as tight as the stuff snaps together I seriously doubt leaks at the laps. If anything there might be leaks at the vent holes, but I doubt it.
The problem with vinyl siding is that it expands and contracts so one must leave gaps at the end of the "boards" so it can move around. Hence the leaks around the windows and doors. The newer windows with integral j-channels are better about this. With these type of windows and proper flashing techniques, I believe that the window issue is 95% eliminated though. Doors and other penetrations can still be an issue though. Also there is a local BS that sells doors with PVC J-channel brick mold. I don't use them though because I've seen other quality issues with them.
I'm confused. I thought you posted another pic that showed heavy condensation the bottom of the CS VB?
Matt
You are talking about this post.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=125923.173.
I think the soil under the plastic has moisture similar to outside soil.
But the cracking looks to me like it was very wet at one time.
I would expect the soil in a CS to get dryer and dryer over time because it is not exposed to rain and snow. There is ground water moisture working it's way up.
And yet this soil still has some moisture content.
Rich
Hey, I'm gettin the shakes from no posts in a few days.... :-) ..... any updates ??
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil
I gave them an estimate for the repairs and for replacing all the windows in the unit I was looking at, but not for the east side. The owner of that side knows meand the situation but he has not contactedd me in anyway.
I wanted to get the windows ordered because they have a 3 week lag time to get her. Which puts it pretty close to Thanksgiving.
So I got the go ahead to order the windows. A couple hours later they called and put the windows on hold.
They want a 2nd estimate.
The owner of the east unit is a realtor and I think he wants to get lawyered up.
So the project is on hold, and I'll be doing the project when it is -10 F in January.
Rich
Is inspector gadget still coming to diagnose the problem?
Matt
Yes, as far as I know.
All you want to know is , which bulter killed the OSB? :) :)
The association president does not know how to contact him.
All contact for inspector gadget is thru me. I wouldn't even know he existed except that an insurance company called him in last year on a similar situation. On that case it was clear that the windows were the cause of the problem. Actually there were 3 sources of water intrusion. It didn't take inspector gadget to find the cause of last year's dilema. But it sure helped to have him back me up. I'm just a contractor, and wasn't it contractors who screwed up the 1st time.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=112965.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=113816.1
BTW, I have worked for several of the people in the association.
Repairing a garage wall that was hit by a car, basement window replacement, countertops, replacing flashings, ceiling repair, that sort of thing.
I have other work to do. I ordered windows for another house on Monday that we won't see for 3-4 weeks. We typically work outside until January every year.
Sometimes the coldest period of the winter is before the new year. Winter is unpredictable, you can never guess the weather.
Rich
Matt
In response to one of your earlier posts about the bttom edge of the OSB
We don't do much building.
Mostly repairs and remodeling.
But when I have a raw edge like plywood, OSB or foam at the bottom of a wall assembly.
Then I like to bend or buy a Z flashing to cover that edge from bugs, water and whatever.
Rich
Matt
I sent myself a post that I intended for you at post #226.
Sorry for the confusion.
Rich
Are there enough building failures in Iowa for this to be a full time job for the inspector? Sounds like he is booked up. Or does he do all kinds of insurance inspection?Just curious, John
John
Are there enough building failures in Iowa for this to be a full time job for the inspector? Sounds like he is booked up.
He is very busy. It sounds like he travels alot, not just in Iowa.
He is not a "home inspector" like if you were going to buy a house.
He does building envelop failures to the best of my knowledge. What else I am not sure.
He has this behind his name AIA & NCARB
I will look them up later.
Rich
He has this behind his name AIA & NCARB
So do I - he's an architect and member of the AIA (American Institute of Architects) and NCARB (National Council of Architectural Registration Boards) - NCARB allows you to obtain registration reciprocity in different states more easily. It's not that easy to get and takes time.
But when I have a raw edge like plywood, OSB or foam at the bottom of a wall assembly.
As far as OSB goes the entire product is a 'raw edge.' ;o)Jeff
Phil
I was kind of letting the thread die, because it was it was turning into
" I think it was the butler"
and
" I think it was the maid"
But it was a fun thread, and there was lots of good comments about a situation that we see all too often in construction. Bad design, and a developer wanting to get in and out fast and cheap.
Rich
You could start a brand new thread when you know more or when you start repairs.Of course, if you are willing to do so. :-) I bet there will be much interest to see the end results.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
yes please lots of houses that look like those all over the US
vinyl, low to ground
The crawl space.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
so what has happened??
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC
We are on hold.
No one has contacted me since I was told they wanted to put the windows on hold.
I suppose they are getting a second estimate.
Rich
was more interested in what inspector gaget had to say...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
BTW...
we had a serious break in the weather... and the fishing has been exceptional...
winter is back today...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I read through all the posts and have an alternative suggestion which suprisingly has not been mentioned at all.
I have seen what I'm about to describe on one block of town houses, and on one mid-priced home.
Take a look at the roof and see if there is a drip ledge installed so that the rain falls into the gutter.
In both instances there was no drip ledge, so when the gutters overflowed in heavy rains, the water simply splashed up into the fascia and behind the aluminium.
From there it ran along the soffit back to the house wall. In the case of the town house, recently resided with vinyl, the soffit had a slight slope back to the walls,
From there it simply ran down behind the siding until it hit the first horizontal stop, which in both cases was the windows, from there it poured into the house.
I guess with foam around windows, it might not be able to enter the house, but rather remain in whatever spaces it could get into, perhaps even pour into the crawlspace. Couple that with what would be a normally damp crawlspace, high interior humidity, and guess what would happen.
Scope out the gutters and the roof edge, check the slope of the soffit with a level and see if that helps with explaining this situation.
With the town houses, the roofers and the siding contractors were pointing fingers at each other, the architect was perplexed, and it turned out to be a combination of the two. The rooofer hadn't put on drip edge and the siding contractor had saved a whole thousand feet or so of siding by stopping 1/2" below the level of the fascia, just slopped the soffit a tad to solve the problem.
Another twist to yer conundrum, but well worth checking.
two other things to check are that bathroom fans are connected to exterior vents and working; likewise for kitchen exhaust fan. Encountered both problems, and it this case they may be contributory.
And the house with the same problem? same deal, no drip cap, sloping soffit, but the homeowner also complained that her front door leaked whenever they pressure washed it!! The window folks had advised them that they needed new windows! I guess when all you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail eh?
Eric in Calgary
cowtown
Thanks for the input.
I will check on the drip edge. I made the assumption it was there.
The unit has gutters so from the ground I would not see if drip edge was present or not.
If my problem was overhead then I would have stains from the top down. Instead I have stains from the bottom up, getting progressively less damageing as I get up the wall.
View Image
But I do not take your advice or comments lightly. I will look for that angle.
the roofers and the siding contractors were pointing fingers at each other
Boy have I seen that.
I guess when all you got is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail eh?
You are so right there.
Thanks for the input.
Rich
buddy, i hope I ain't steered you wrong,
It just struck me as funny that with all that water damage not one person had suggested where most of the water comes from... the roof...
And as for the damage being visible primarily on the bottom, well water falls faster than it creeps up. And it can fall down, and then creep up.
I've seen a water hose from a washer dripping on a concrete floor wick up to just shy of 5' via FG insulation too. Water goes up, goes down, goes sideways.. Yu know the drill.
BTW, you got your time, labour, expertise covered on this exploration?, cause if they go looking for bids to repair after all yer scutwork, it's you gonna be out of pocket, while others make the profit......been there done that.
In thinking of methodologies, if you find the roofing/gutter/sofffit debacle, u may be able to substantiate/refute it with a painters moisture meter stuck into the interior drywall above a window and below the window. If the readings are higher at the top than at the bottom, it's an indication that the problem is coming from above vs the coming from below option. yer client is probably PO'd enuf to allow you free rein vis-a-vis damages, but the pins leave only small holes,so if yer tight to the casings, they are practically invisible except to those with OCD.
Good luck
Eric
The building has 18-24" overhangs and gutters. Even if the installation isn't perfect, not much water is going to strike the siding, and none of it above the top of the windows.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
oh?
I guess my 2x experience in suggeting this must be all wrong.
Curiously enuf I was back at the client with the house today to hang some doors, and asked if their "water pouring in from the top of the windows" problem was solved....It disappeared when they had their roof fixed....but she wasn't sure exactly what the roofer did..
Besides, in this instance, 240+ responses to the fella with the problem, and not one of the responses that I saw has suggested checking roof/gutters/fascia/soffit etc.
So where's the logic in discounting an alternative theory based in pragmatic experience.
Besides, the roof etc AIN"T been apparently investigated as far as I know.
I admit it's only a tad more intuitive than turning a crank, but it really isn't that hard a concept to grasp.
As I said, seen it twice, but that was before foaming windows became commonplace.
Ergo, the water will not likely drip into the house, but continue on down the sheathing, hitting joints, and getting wicked up in the FG, hence almost certainly even wicking up.
A leaking water pipe on a sill plate wicked up 5' rotting out studs before it was observed. Just another one of my experiences.
Make sense yet?
Eric
Well, the truth is, something is wrong, you could be right. It doesn't seem that the water is coming from the top down, but sometimes water does weird stuff.
Not really. If you'll recall from the pictures, the tops of the windows were very close to the soffit, and there was no water staining on the sheathing near the tops of the windows. Also, the pattern of staining doesn't suggest that the water is entering at the windows and working outward. And the pattern at the bottom of the windows doesn't resemble patterns seen in other situations of severe leakage through the window sill area.While certainly with a shallow overhang water could dribble around the drip edge and back into the structure, it's highly unlikely to occur so uniformly with an overhang of 18-24" (which is what the house appears to have).It is plausible, of course, that water could dribble past the edge (and gutter) and strike the siding farther down, but if this were an issue then millions of homes with vinyl siding would be showing similar damage.Most plausible, in terms of roof-related problems, is that clogged gutters and/or poor detailing at the gutter is causing a lot of water to run over the edge and splash on the ground. The splashing drives water up through the lap and vent holes in the siding, and the fallen water, given the apparently flat ground, would likely pool there to a depth of 2-3" or so in a heavy downpour, coming dangerously close to the lower edge of the sheathing.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
cowtown
buddy, i hope I ain't steered you wrong
There are alot of hands on the steering wheel right now, don't worry. Most of them are cyberhands. LOL It's good discussion.
BTW, you got your time, labour, expertise covered on this exploration
Good question. I have keep track, but I have not billed for it. It was included in my estimate. Which will make me look more expensive than the next guy. Which I usually am anyway. :)
We have doing other work and my son Tim is in the hospital (35 miles away) with H1N1 so I have been spending evenings there. I spent all weekend there too. So I have not had time to worry about it.
It's out of my hands right now anyway. Do good work, give an honest opinion and estimate and things will shake out. You don't always get rewarded right away.
I have had jobs where they rejected my advice and estimate, got another contractor and then I have to come back and do the work over. On roof work the poor work can take several years to show up.
And sometimes the other contractor does good work cheaper. As long as I have work and food on the table I can't complain.
Rich
Want to thank You for keeping this thread open / posting your replies and giving out the information on what you have discovered to date. The return plenum to the damp crawl certainly modified my opinion of int. vs. ext. water source.
Life is Good
dove
thank You for keeping this thread open /
No problem.
It's the only way I can get e-mail that's not an invoice or a request for my time. LOL
It's an instructive discussion, and I think we are going to be seeing more building envelop failures in the future.
What strikes me is how the old houses (with plenty of breathing space) could get away with construction techinques that destroy the modern homes.
Alot of homes (most) were built from 1980-2000 with HW and window details just like this one.
I just saw the present best practice in JLC about 5 years ago. Our lumberyard had a Tyvek man do a seminar about 2 years ago. It was obvious to me that this was new stuff for most if not all the other contractors.
I still drive by sites and see the old X method being done, especially on commercial work.
Rich
Maybe start a new topic when the results are in?
nah... keep it all connected
Dan and All
Ok I have not heard from the condo people in 2 weeks or more. I have been busy, and my son Tim has been in the hospital for most of those two weeks.
So I called the condo president today and I asked her what the status of the job was.
She informed me that they got a second estimate and they expected that contractor to start today.
She said they expect a bill from me for the time I spent on the job and she expects me to NOT GOUGE them.
So I asked her why she thought that I would gouge them?
Well she said I was a good honest person, but that my labor estimate was pretty high.
I explained that I was accounting for the time already spent and there were alot of unknowns in this job. I told her that it was better to go into the job prepared for some hidden damage. I gave her an honest estimate based what I knew and what I proposed to do.
I was kind of taken aback. I have done minor stuff for her and 3-4 other people out there.
My lumberyard rep had given me the heads up about a week ago that he went out there with the Anderson window rep and another contractor. The real estate broker/developer that I mentioned earlier (he owns the other 1/2 of this unit and rents it out) was behind all this and he brought his contractor.
Anyway my lumberyard rep had the impression that they were going to reuse the insulation and try to cover it up as fast and cheaply as possible.
I am offended and hurt, but in retrospect I may have dodged a bullet. The real estate guy can be difficult and he is always looking for an angle to keep his wallet in his pocket. I just wish she had said that "we got another estimate and we are going with the other guy, I am sorry that I forgot to call you back."
I e-mailed inspector gadget to inform him of the devolopments, and he informed me that he called to set up an appointment, but they never returned his call. I sent him pictures. His comment was
I hope they realize they have multiple causation….
So, thank you everybody for the advice and the comments. This was a very good discussion and I had fun looking at all the angles of the wall failure.
I am glad I don't have to deal with the subfloor going below grade and behind the concrete when the ground freezes.
But the mystery continues and you can all go about your ways convinced that you know which butler really did it. :-)
View Image
Rich
Some lawyer(s) can have a field day with this situation.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Phil
Some lawyer(s) can have a field day with this situation.
Like I said "dodged a bullet.
Rich
has the consultant's report made it in yet???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
They never returned his phone call for an appointment.
No report.
So you can be right, it was the pressure washering. :)
Rich
Cargin..
sorry missed .249 and I have this feeling yur way better off not touching this...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
Yup
Rich
Wow Rich.That stinks on so many levels. Their loss. I'll bet they don't get to the root of it.Steve
mmoogie
I'll bet they don't get to the root of it.
I might get to look at it again some day with new owners. :)
Most of these people will have moved on in 10 years.
Rich
I think that person is an ARS. Don't gouge them? Some people have no skills, like living with others. Send them a bill, bordering on gouging. Then put them on the do not return call list. Then tell fellow contractors this development is a POS.Then they can get all the hacks in to fix this every 4-5 years.I think they did you a big favor!! One old fart on a condo board can be your demise.I ended up enclosing a wall they ripped out of my Mom's place, to fix a leaking pipe. It was exposed for 3 months, electric wires hanging out of the wall not capped off, one very hot water pipe exposed. with 4 young grand kids running around.I fixed the wall and sent a fair bill, the old cheap fart said so and so said they would do it for $100.00. I pointed out that did not cover materials.I asked why it would take 3 months. There reply the plywood had to aclimatise.
Shoe
I am not going to do anything unkind or talk behind their back.
Obviously someone has been talking behind my back and painting me as a overpriced contractor.
It doesn't feel good and I would not want to do that to someone else. What goes around comes around. If I speak degradingly about other people or contractors then what is my audience supposed to think? "I wonder what he says about me when my back is turned."
No someone has been putting me down and then giving a low price quoting apples against oranges. It's an unfair fight and a fight over questionable spoils. I think I am better off without the job and the condo association.
I'll be back.
Rich
Rich
I guess I may have worded that properly.You have put a lot of time including here, to find out what happened. You did something that shows you take pride in your work . But hanging around the lumber desk you sometimes here comments about certain "no go zones" even if you are ordering to a certain address they may ask for cash up front. !!People talking behind your back about pricing. I hear this all the time in the coffee shop, or get asked to see if an estimate is fair. A lot of people making comments have no clue on what it costs to do anything to a house.Last year I did a 4 suite condo gut and interior redoe. Well all the experts came out of the wall as to costs. The biggest mouths were the retired ladies who haven't worked in years and the old man has 2-3 pensions. And unfortunatly these people land in positions of descision making. ie condo boards, recreation boards etc.I had the privilage to be asked to drive 20 miles to drill holes, for fence posts, 5 feet deep in rocky soil for $5.00 a hole. maybe 6 of 7. She was flabergast I would not do it. As I let her down nicely.I'm sure there is more of this else were and you can do well. Find out the developer, see were else he has done this and go advertise there.
" Well she said I was a good honest person, but that my labor estimate was pretty high. "
Translation: We really don't want to pay to have it fixed correctly so we hired a guy to just replace the obvious bad stuff. He says he can use some caulk and putty in some areas to help save money. He gives a pretty good tail light warranty. If it occurs again we might get back to you to see if a qualified contractor can actually diagnose the problem.
BTW - "causation" I'll file that one away for one day when I become a consultant and just walk around pointing at stuff.
Matt
You summed it up pretty well.
consultant and just walk around pointing at stuff
I really like this inspector gadget. On the last job we wer notified that he was coming at the last minute to review the cause of the problem and our fixes.
I was anticipating a problem with him.
Instead he was very helpful and supportive.
He liked what we had done and the documentation that I had in pictures.
He was like John Denver with a moisture meter and alot of Building Science research behind him.
"causation" Yeah I liked that word too.
Rich
how would a home BUYER avoid buying something like this?
Talk to the neighbors BEFORE buying. Particularly to the ones who are peeking out the windows when you pull up to the other houses. They know everything that has happened.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
A good HI should catch it.
Darn!! Been out of town and slow to catch upon reading.
Good that you got yourself cleared of the mess, bad that it had to happen in such a manner. Might keep a disk of the photos you took just for insurance for the future. Enjoyed this thread immensely, thank you for the opportunity to participate.
Life is Good
Yea - well... I was really looking forward to Dr. gadget's prognosis.
me too...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
Ok, I talked with my lumber yard rep (spy) today.
He was up there to assist with ordering the windows.
The sills under the windows are completely gone. They feel the bottom plate needs to be replaced in places.
They removed the insulation and discovered that there is no vapor barrier (Gasp)
So the current plan is to remove all the sheathing and spray foam the walls to create the vapor barrier on both sides of this unit.
I love the solution but I was afraid to suggest it because of the cost. There is no one in town that does it, it will have to be out of town contractors for the foaming.
And since the vinyl siding is nearly 20 years old they are going to replace all the vinyl siding.
The rep said " I think it is going to snowball".
If it's going to snowball I don't want to be the one handing them the bill or holding it while they find the money.
He also noticed some brick on another unit (brick up 1/2 way ) had a top ledge that was improperly sloped toward the house and poorly flashed. He advised them to remove some siding and take a look to see if there was damage behind the brick.
I had better stop asking questions and keep my nosy self out of the situation. I don't want to get into "I told you so" mode.
Rich
but you did trll them so...
they just didn't care to listen...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Looks exactly like my house except it had the first generation Tyvek on it. The bottom 3-4 inches around my house are the same punky pieces of OSB and dry rot sill plates. A big job to fix and work on but needs to get done. Wicking and wind driven rain splashing are the most likely causes for the damage. I had to replace 12 feet of an entire wall because the studs had gotten pretty bad. Probably if there had been about 8-12 inches of flashing along the bottom when vinyl siding first installed this might not have been an issue.
My house is on a concrete slab with the house not sitting perfectly square on it leaving about 4-8 inches of the slab exposed to the elements (including a 4'x30' front porch that is the same slab as the house). A perfect setup for rain to bounce and get in under the siding. I am just waiting for the building inspector to come around to hound me about something and I'll ask him how something like this was passed less than 20 years ago.
Vinyl siding may go up easy and looks pretty good but bugs and water seem to get behind it pretty easily.
Allen
My situation has multiple "causation".
I believe some of it is from below.
Vinyl siding may go up easy and looks pretty good but bugs and water seem to get behind it pretty easily.
You should come to IA and see all the asian beetles that get behind the vinyl siding.
My house is on a concrete slab
In Canada? Sounds like the perimeter would get pretty cold
and I'll ask him how something like this was passed less than 20 years ago.
We'll see how far you get with that one. :)
Thanks for the reply. I am sorry that you have this kind of damage to your house. I feel sorry for anyone with this kind of damage.
Rich
ALL
This is a Buidling Science article that issome good reading about mold, OSB and current building practices.
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-027-material-view-of-mold
Rich
In this month's JLC I see they have a book called "JLC guide to Moisture control". Anyone got that one? Any good? Practical advice or more quadruple gasketed fantasy walls?
And BTW - I think a lot of what we have seen in this thread is OSB's inability to tolerate moisture. So, what better type of sheathing is there? I'm wishing for something that breaths well but isn't prone to mold, etc. Plywood and OSB don't breath and don't do well with moisture. Rigid foam doesn't breath. So, what sheet material fits the bill?
Edited 11/21/2009 8:19 pm ET by Matt
Matt
Did you click on the link I posted by Building Science? Just about 3-4 posts ago.
It had a test between OSB and plywood.
Rich
Yes, I read that and saw the test pic. Plywood doesn't have perm rating I'm looking for.
BTW - didn't someone a few years ago here tell us that in a providence in Canada wall sheathing ventilation holes were required. I think it was British Columbia and I think it was even the insurance industry that was forcing the issue.
I think building wall systems that have the ability to dry is paramount - right after preventing moisture intrusion in the first place. I was really disipointed we didn't get any "closure" on your situation; the initial thread topic.
Matt
disipointed we didn't get any "closure" on your situation
It was multiple butlers.
Rich
Yes it is/was in BC. When I moved out here I saw gaps between outside sheathing of maybe 1/2 inch. Sometimes I saw what looked like they took a skill saw and cut slashes all over the sheathing and sometimes there would be like 2 inch or bigger holes drilled in the sheathing under windows.
Apparently some of what I mention they don't have to do anymore. Which ones I don't know but I've been told that some home warranty insurance companies still want it.
In summary, I don't have clue;)roger
Amazing!!!!"WE" the nations have been building since the 1800s and have had written record of whats happening and there is still not clear answers.
What causes that?
Too much pressure for new materials? tar paper pushed out by tyvek
ply or that old black board (gyplap of the 60s) pushed out by OSB?
Yeah, that's a good point -- the sort of damage seen in the photos wouldn't have occurred if the old brown/black fiberboard sheathing was used. It will absorb water, but nowhere near as bad as OSB.But of course you can't (easily) hang vinyl on the old fiberboard stuff, because it won't hold nails.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
The building process is constantly evolving. It's not just changing materials, it's changing methods and codes. We had an energy crunch back in the 70s. Then we tightened up our buildings and started getting mold. Sometime around then code started requiring vapor barriers. Now in many areas none are required. I could go on and on. A lot of the changes are for the better. Here, we have gotten 2 new energy codes in the past 6 years. Now, here all new home windows have to be Low-E. Now we can buy Energy Star homes. They are certified to be a minimum of 15% more efficient than a standard code house, which is probably 50% more efficient than a standard code house of 1970 vintage and I make a WAG of 200% more efficient than a 1900 house. We now have engineered floor systems that allow us longer spans and therefore the current trend of "open floorplans". Homes in seismic or high wind areas are so tied down with engineered metal strapping, sheer panels etc, that there is no way they could be reviled by the 2x4s and 16p nails of 1950. All this progress comes at a price though. Some builders operate on the bleeding edge. Others are just pain sloppy or don't understand buildings as systems. Some are on their game and can deliver what homebuyers want (and are willing to pay for) while still retaining a reasonable level of quality. A very few builders have even earned themselves the luxury of building high performance homes at a high sq ft cost and make a good living at it. One guy here I know of built a high performance home and eventually had to "give it away" (his words).
At the other end of the spectrum there is always the pressure by homebuyers for builders to deliver cheaper square footage. Two new neighborhoods next to each other. One has homes for $110 a sq ft the other has homes similar in appearance for $125 a sq foot. Who cares that $125 buys you properly flashed exterior systems, higher effiency HVAC equipment and better faucets? Both faucets put out water - don't they? They both have central heat and air, don't they? Flashing? What's that and why do I care? "I don't see any leaks". Guess which neighborhood "takes off" and which stagnates with a few sales per year. "I'd much rather have the granite counter tops than the 18 Seer AC unit..." (TIC) What's a SEER, anyway?
That is why 20 % of the builders sell to 80% of the home buyers and 60% of the homes are built with questionable materials and methods... (these figures I made up to illustrate a point). It ends up being about building what people want. Not what we think they should have.
The good news is that codes are designed to protect home buyers from themselves. Now they don't have to know what sheer panel are and why they need to be at the corners of the house. Codes have taken away the choice. This is good. Prices per sq ft go up though. There are other prices for progres too.
Think it's simple? Like they say "if it was easy anyone could do it". Apparently some people can't do it. The funny thing is that more builders fail at the business aspects than the sticks and bricks aspects. So, this mold issue, or whatever the technical issue is is just the tip of the iceberg.
The mold issue and it's prevention does seem to be getting out of hand. Now I hear recommendations of back venting cabinets and even mirrors. Try selling those concepts.John
1. wonder why there is no research by the OSB board makers to solve some of these issues or by the vinyl siding or tyvek companies.2. ever seen anything like this on a hardie plank wall or does Hardie breath enough to prevent it?
I suspect it would have been nearly as bad with Hardie. The bottom of the OSB still would have been essentially exposed to splashing water, though not quite as badly since there wouldn't have been water splashing through the drainholes in the bottom edge of the siding.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
seems like in the south east us there are lots of "raised concrete" slabs with vinyl above
edward
Slab houses are common in the south, but in Canada it has to be a rare house, because of the heaving and the cold getting under the slab.
Rich