All
I am doing a replacement of 4 Marvin windows. They were installed 13 years ago. They were installed in a new home by a company who sells only windows. The kind of company that is always at the fair and the home shows.
5 years ago I was called out to look at mold growing on corners of the kitchen window. And water would drip in the house with a strong east wind. The builder and the window company were ignoring their calls. The kitchen window is on the main floor with a twin double hung directly above it.
I removed some siding and trim and I found the studs under the window were rotten to the plate. The water and rot started at the 2nd story window, around the kitchen window and then to the plate.
The company rep, the window company owner and the builder all meet and placed blame on each other. The window guys were sure that the moisture came from the roof or the soffits. It was not the fault of the windows. The builder knew better, and took a syringe and shot water towards the lower corners of the frame and water ran out the bottom.
Anyway Marvin bought the HO a new kitchen window, caulked the upper window behind the guides and paid for part of the labor and materials to replace siding and sheathing. Sheathing under each window was replaced and they used tar paper for house wrap ths time. The bottom piece of 5/4 x 6 trim was replaced with 5/4 pine. Then 1/2″ plywood was installed over all the trim so that they could wrap the trim with aluminum and get the aluminum to tuck into the metal groove.
Now 5 years later it was leaking again. Again no reponse from the window company.
I came out and we ordered new upper windows. I finished them in the shop and today we started ripping out the old windows.
I’ll start a new post with pictures.
I am doing this thread so that those of you with Older marvin windows with rot showing up in the lower corners behind the guides can see what i going on behind the walls. It seems that the old Marvins didn’t have any sealant between the side jamb and the bottom .
Rich
Replies
All
This is what the damage looks like when you pull the guides back.
Rich
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Edited 11/17/2008 8:20 pm ET by cargin
Edited 11/17/2008 8:21 pm ET by cargin
All
This is a shot of what it looks like behind the guides where the windows are joined.
Rich
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And this is what it looks like underneath.
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This is what it did to the framing.
Remember the sheathing was replaced 5 years ago and the company sealed the corners.
Rich
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All
This is what it looked like behind the aluminum wrap. This 5/4 pine was installed just 5 years ago. The caulk seal between the window and the aluminum was in good condition. We had to cut it out with a knife.
Rich
The white trim on the left is the orginal 5/4 cedar the bottom board is the the unpainted pine.
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Ouch. I just installed about six of those windows on a side job. I don't recall the manufacturer, but the vinyl stops look almost identical. I will see one of the homeowners at my day job tommorrow, he might be interested to see this post.
Edited 11/19/2008 4:08 pm ET by arcflash
Arc
The new Marvins had a foam gasket in the corners.
Rich
This is the top o the window jamb but you can see the gasket.
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This is the bottom of the jamb and if you look close you can see the gasket.
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I wouldn't be alarmed unless I had older Marvins.
Rich
I think this example demonstrates the importance of window pans and proper lapping of pans, the WRB and cap flashings. If these three things had been in place, the window failure wouldn't have caused any further damage. On a more frustrating level, when are these window manufacturers going to wake up and start treating their wood windows like they are made out of wood? Good carpenters know they need to backprime and seal end grain cuts in the field, why can't they do that in the factory when they are manufacturing these products? This past spring I did a full epoxy restoration of 8 wood windows that were less than 10 years old. If it didn't void the warranty, I would prefer to disassemble the window, prime and paint all the unfinished backs and end grain, and reassemble the unit before installation. This alone would add years to the life of the window.
steve
I think this example demonstrates the importance of window pans and proper lapping of pans,
Window and door pans are not readily avaible here. If I mentioned this to my lumber yard they would give me that blank stare.
We will wrap the window sill with Tyvek's sill flashing.
I would prefer to disassemble the window, prime and paint all the unfinished backs and end grain, and reassemble the unit before installation. This alone would add years to the life of the window.
You are right, but the moisture shouldn't get that far. I have torn out windows much older that were perfectly sound. And many that weren't also.
Rich
Rich,
The tyvek sill wrap (I'm assuming you're referring to their peel and stick flexible flashing product) when installed properly is a pan flashing. Just make sure that it wraps over the rough framing of the window sill and laps over the WRB below the window. It's also nice to create a dam detail on the interior side of the rough sill with a 1/4"-1/2" square strip of whatever. This piece is put in place first, and the tyvek wrap can be formed into the corners created by the strip. Regarding the prepainting of all the window parts, the moisture can, will, and does get that far, and the evidence is right in front of you. The older windows you referred to were probably made from old growth pine stock which has a natural resistance to decay. The problem with new growth pine is that it rots very, very easily. Once the first spot of decay starts, it goes very quickly, and spreads quickly to the framing.
steve
I have also seen lap siding installed to create a drainage pitch. which would be nice on a new house.
That would screw up the height of my windows so i wouldn't cover paint or wallpaper with my trim.
I am going to install new house wrap under these windows and lap it on to the next piece of siding.
Rich
That's a great detail that should be standard, bringing the house wrap or tar paper coming from under the window over the siding. This directs the water out over the siding instead of directing it between the siding and the housewrap. Same principle as a kickout flashing. It's always difficult to get the full picture with these short forum posts, but when you said you were going to run the new house wrap under the windows, did you mean just the house wrap? If so, I'd suggest using one of the flexible peel and stick flasing products at the corners at least (if not along the entire sill). You really need a three point seal at the inside and outside corners of the rough sill for a proper watertight pan detail. It's not possible to do that with housewrap alone.
Steve
We will use the flexible tyvek wrap that is built for wrapping wills. Housewrap up to window, then flash the sill on to the wrap.
Install the window and then use straight flash by Tyvek on the sides and top
The top of the window is about 3" from a 2' deep soffit.
I am thingking that we should double up the tyvek under the window and on to the siding. With the flex wrapgoing over the top of the housewrap. An extra 12" x 6' on big deal.
The 15lb tarpaper that was installed 5 years ago was toast.
Rich
All
This is how we wrapped the sills.
Rich
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At this point we did not have the middle window out yet. We we do we will run Tyvek from this point to the next window. Then tape the seam. The siding is back primed cedar.
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I can't tell, but it sounds like there was no wrap or pan flash of any kind used previously. Is that true?
I learned on my first window install nearly forty years ago that windows sometimes leak, and that you have to wrap with tarpaper at the very least.
I'll agree that the factories sometimes leave something to be desired, but to install with no wrap under it is poor work too.
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Piffin
I can't tell, but it sounds like there was no wrap or pan flash of any kind used previously.
I believe that they cut the house wrap in th X pattern and wrapped it into the window framing. That is what it looked like on the sides. The bottom was too badly deteriorated to tell.
I saw the 1st articles in the magazines 5-6 years ago to change the way we flashed windows. Our lumberyard brought in a Tyvek rep 2 years ago to teach proper window flashing. It was obvious that this was a totally new message to most of the builders.
learned on my first window install nearly forty years ago that windows sometimes leak,
Me too, but new construction guys don't get to see the results of their workmanship like us repair/remodel guys.
but to install with no wrap under it is poor work too. You are right.
These top windows should have been replaced 5 years ago when the major work was done, or at the least taken out and properly flashed. At that time siding up to the 2nd story windows was taken off that side of the house and sheathing was replaced.
The window company or at the least the Marvin rep should have suggested proper sill flashing. But everybody was trying to limit their liablity.
and that you have to wrap with tarpaper at the very least. There was nothing left of the tar paper from 5 years ago.
In the meantime the HO gets screwed.
Rich
so there WAS tarpaper there. That is a LOT of water getting in. is this a wind driven location?I've spent the last few weeks fixing rot on a place where most was getting in around windows. There was a laundry list of things done wrong and bad detailing. I took some photos, but haven't unloaded the camera yet. I'll be making out their bill today.These were custom made windows with Mahogany frames and casing, pretty well made, but I think no seals at the joints either.And the underside of sills had no drip bead, nor dado slot to keep water from following surface tension to bleed right back into the wall.Some were site mulled together and had an applied sill extension to tie them all together, but the installers did such a sloppy job of that, the joint was anywhere from 1/16" gap to 5/16" gap, then just caulked with painters caulk, which had long since dried, cracked and shrunk, directing water right in.There were no head flashings of any kind anywheres. In one location, it had a pine ( instead of the mahogany used elsewhere) 2x10 head casing. It was a hard location to get to, and I thought of just putting a bevel on the top of it and re-caulking there, but my better sense got ahold of me and I ripped siding off to get the flashing in right.. There was lots of sign water had been getting in there.In several spots where siding and sheathing was rotting below windows, they had used ice and water shield to mnake pans, but there were several sopts where it was gobbed up, not lapped right direction, and not sealed lapps. Then when they turned it down onto the tyvek, they used a nice sharp knife to cut the ice membrane, slicing neatly through the housewrap at the same time, to leave a gaping maw to swallow any water coming that way.One roof dormer with a gable end had the frieze board flush surface with the clapboards, and again, brittle cheap painters caulk dried and cracked. All the rest of the house had the freize overlapping that joint, but this - the most wind blown side of the house, have gaps up to a quarter inch wide for wind to blow the water in. As I measured to rip new material to re-frieze it, I found that the board on one side was 9-1/4" and on the other was 8" Had to scratch my head over that one. The whole place was a puzzle with so much poor detailing and lack of flashings. every time I looked at a bad spot, I would say, "Oh yeah, I just need to fix THIS item" Then upon tearing into it, would discover 2-3 more things done wrong.A lot of it was caught just in the nick of time. Very little showing on the inside at all, and barely noticeable on the exterior. Painters had started to paint the place this summer, and said there is water we can squeeze out of this siding, gotta do something about that first.
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Piffin
is this a wind driven location?
Only from an east wind. East wind here is seldom but when we get it it's usually strong. They called me twice this year to come out and cover the windows with plastic because of several days of east wind and rain.
The orginal housewrap was a pink, woven stuff.
2nd time around they used 15 lb tar paper, but they didn't get it under the windows (pan).
Bottom flange was missing (from the repair).
The 5/4x 6 bottom trim piece was wrapped with aluminum. I think that trapped the water that did get in.
BTW, my intention was not to bash Marvin, but to alert people to check your windows. This place looked just fine on the outside. Except for the leaking it looked fine on the inside too after the repair 5 years ago. The damage was severe and hidden.
I have had trailer house windows that were older and didn't leak this much, and I have replaced a bunch of them.
Rich
Piffin
but my better sense got ahold of me and I ripped siding off to get the flashing in right
tough thing to do when the bill keeps getting bigger.
Sounds like rot doesn't care where it lives ME or IA.
Have a good day. Sorry about all the pics on you dail up guys.
Rich
I didn't see enough caulking, either. I can usually make up for poorer quality material with the right sealant..........usually.
I'd say the main reason for needing caulking is poorer quality workmanship and flashing. I can install a window with no caulk and no leaks. When you have to rely on caulk to keep water out, something is wrong.Actually, in the house I just finished re[pairs on, the main problem was poor fl;ashing details and lots of caulk gone bad.Since this is a good thread on the subject, I may come back later with some of the pictures from that one, if cargin doesn't mind.
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OK. Not all of us have access to a metal brake everytime we replace a little window trim. Not all of us are the best carpenters that ever happened to Breaktime. Id say that if your caulk joints are failing, than you need to learn proper caulking technique and when and where to use certain types of caulk.
My window details consist of a little flashing tape in the right places, trim, and the right sealant. I'm almost at four years and my window treatments haven't failed, and if you read enough of FHB, you would remember a certain article where the author had used a specific sealant in the 70's, painted over it, and his joint treatment is still going strong. I've also taken enough buildings apart to know that know-it-all builders are the reason I have to take apart that building. I'd say that sealants aren't used near enough, or when they are, the wrong ones are used.
gee, did you take that personally?
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No, I don't get mad at a computer.
Piffin
Some people have all the luck. Wai till you see what we uncovered yesterday.
So we have one window to replace on the main floor, below the windows that were leaking.
We know there has to be some damage below the window.
Here is what it looked like before we tore it open. Do sign of damage on the inside.
Rich
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This small spot was the only sign of damage I could see .
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Piffin
And this is what we found when we tore it open.
Rich
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And here is he culprit. There is a long valley above this point.
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Edited 12/9/2008 10:47 pm ET by cargin
That's what I call a funnel, damm, dog broke my keyboard...FN key is stuk on the lap top.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Ugh!But a great spot for me to jump in with similar here. I was lucky it hadn't got intot he sheathing so bad, but samew lack of proper flashing - no kickout.Similar to what you saw, photo 001 shows my first view.
When you see 004, there is a light gob if caulk hiding behind the wires from the sat dish. Notice too - no head flashing over the casing there. This was an all wood window built the old way.And when I open it up, see the water trail on the metal in phoot 011 and 012.It is interesting that they used I&W, but see where they ended it in 072. The wall on the inside under the sill had been showing water spotting there.They had another neat trick at the bottom of the I&W on the other side of the window shown in #18There was webs of white fuzzy mold growth on the backside of all the clapboards.I'll do another post to show all the repairs around this.
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I guess my photos of the finished aren't as comprehensive. I shot more of the problem than the fix, for documentation of the need.but there is a couple here of the head flashing and kickout in place.I also cut a slot into the underside of the sill to feed a metal flashing into with a bead of geocell, lapping down over the previous clapboard, and tucked some housewrap right way at the slits they left.There was another window the same way in another location on this house too.I'll do another post with some other water intrusion problems on this place.
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Anyone see the problem in #8?In the background you see where I started repairs on another dormer for the same reason. The cornerboard is 2x6 pine and is set tight down to the shingles, and had no painted seal on the end grain. The one on the background dormer is where I started. It had wood flaking off, and mushrooms growing right out of the pine cornerboard. #10 shows that they did a pretty poor job with the wrap and felt all facing the wrong lap direction too.
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Then cometh the really interesting one.See #24 for what I uncovered. I had been replacing siding on the east wall, under a bank of windows. The SE cornerboard looked good on the surface, but I thought I would check more. Got down on my knees and looked up and probed a bit. The cornerboard here was 2x12 pine and very punkly, so I pulled it.There were three things that contributed to this. One shows in the photo pretty well. I'll play with y'all and let you tell me what it was before I go further on this.But heck, I'll give you a couple more shots of that corner to go.
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Piffin
I'll play along. But you didn't give us any photos of the detailing above the damage.
I would say that the sill board under the bank of windows is not beveled and probably not flashed properly.
I have seen many older homes with very poor details without this much damage.
The ice and water and the typar didn't do much to protect this house. Water probably got behind the typar at the sill, and then the typar just held the moisture in instead of allowing it to dry out.
Rich
At that corner, like I said, there were three things contributing to the rot you see.
one is easily visible in the photos posted.The others are higher up that don't show in that photo.I gotta run off to work now. See you later with more photos.
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Piffin
So I'll take my second stab at the problem.
If I was doing this sill I would have put a dado on the bottom side for the siding to tuck into. I looks like this installation depended upon a caulk joint to seal out the water at the siding to sill joint.
With the I&W and the typar I would not have expected to see so much damage from a missing detail as that.
Rich
Yes, that was a problem. I used the Fein Mutimaster to let in a slot for flashing all along, ande I ran a router to make a drip bead on the outer underedge of the thick sill.The item that shows in that picture though is a cut through the wrap. see how a saw blade scored the ply sheathing a bit at the edges of the cornerboard location? most of this house has 2x6 cornerboards, but at the two corners of this sunroom space, it was 2x12. I theorize that they first installed 2x6 at this short wall section for the siding, then the window layout dictated a wider corner above the sill, so somebody, possibly the arcchy, siad to chenge to a wider cornerboard below, so it would not look top heavy.So the carpenter who did that, set his saw to dpth, and sliced off the siding, scoring right thru the wrap under it, and then slapped in the new cornerboard. No backpriming and only a painter's caulk to keep water oput. it had long since cracked and dried and it was just a surface caulk - not bedded in the caulk.There were other more major problems tho.Spme more pictures now. The sill above this was site applied to the whole bank of windows. It was very poorly fitted, just screwed on and then the gap ( which was from 1/16" to about a quarter inch wide) was then caulked.
#67 shoiws where I have one window ground clean, and the old bad caulk dug out, ready to repair.
I mixed up some epoxy with filler, #68, then sanded it, and then top finished with minwax wood filler, #74, sanded smooth again, and then put a primer sealer on it to hold for winter until the painters get this house in spring.
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I forgot a couple more things.
#31 - see the heavy 2x10 head casing above this window at the bad corner? There was NO flashing over it at all.
This is the one where Imentioned earlier that I';d considered just a bead of new caulk, but my good sense got the better of me, LOL. When I got up on a ladder, to plane a bevel onto the wood to be sure it was shedding AWAY form the wall, I found that the wood was wet under the paint, and there were 2-3 spots where the caulk was cracked dry and you could slide a quarter into the slot.
see #37. The water had been enough getting inside to make a small puddle on the sill, and a small rust spot starting on the cast radiator. So I tore off the siding above that casing, and installed a head flashing.The reason the ladder is where you see it in 31 is that while I was there, and overnight wind loosened more shingles on this roof. This is one where I replace shingles a couple of times a year, because they used a nail gun, set to deep, blowing nails right thru hot shingles, and the nails were all set too high above the headlap. About 6-8 shingles immediately above the door there were all loose and slipped down slope about an inch from that blow.Something else you can see in that photo, they apparently 'forgot' to install an apron under that threshold. There was a couple shims under the oak, but I could slide my fingers right back up into the gap there.anyways, #39 shows a step in my repairs of the rotted corner. I replaced the bottom legs of the corner studs, then drilled some impel rods into the rest where there is barely surface rot started - not enough to be a structrual concern, then I painted it with Cuprinol copper, let it all dry a couple more days, and resheathed and replaced....another 2-3 years and this owner would have been facing tens of thousands of dollars in rebuild costs instead of just repair costs.It is amazing how saving a $5 item like a kickout flashing can do so much yet guys get away with that all day long.
BTW, the outfit that did this job was one of the featured "Big Fifty" remodelors in the Remodeling magazine that year or the next.I always prefer being good to being big.
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piffin
Thanks for the pictures and the discussion. Being a big company usually leads to poor detailing. Seems like they are always chasing the next big project, not happy with today's job. With a larger crew you have more unskilled people to watch over. Some times they give those workers jobs that seem trivial and yet if not done right they can be critical. I can't think of an example now.
I have a rental trailer window to replace today, but it is cold, snowing and windy. I might stay close to the office for a while this morning.
If I get a chance I'll post some more pictures of our rotten corner.
Time for breakfast now though.
Rich
>>...more unskilled people to watch over. Some times they give those workers jobs that seem trivial and yet if not done right they can be critical.<<Rich,I'm with you there. I just don't think it's worth hiring unskilled people at all. Seems like no matter what task you give them, they find a way to mess it up in ways that will reflect badly on your company in the end. There just are very few jobs where skill doesn't matter, short of humping materials and cleaning up. Steve
mmoogie
I'm with you there. I just don't think it's worth hiring unskilled people at all.
You are mostly right.
The problem lies when the boss leaves them unsupervised to early or too often.
I work with my sons and I spend alot of time working side by side until I know they have the concepts down pat.
I see alot of carpenters at the lumberyard shooting the bull or picking up materials while their help is working. Picking up materials is an unskilled labor task.
Rich
Piffin
Back to the step flashing and the corner being rotten out. I posted pictures of the corner in post #36 & 37.
I tore it apart a little more yesterday.
The roofer used EPDM under the step flashing, to protect the corner from possible leaking at the bottom of the valley. The roofer did commercial and residential work. Well it worked. The valley/corner leaked, the EPDM saved the roof ply but the EPDM terminated behind the siding just like the step flashing did.
The king stud, the cripple, the middle stud, the corner stud, the double 2x6 silland all the studs under the window, about 6' of plate, the stud around the corner, the 2x6 bottom of the header and part of the header are all rotten.
The SR on the other side has a very good sponge paint job with 4 colors very deftly applied. The whole kitchen is done that way. So we are trying to save that. So far we have not sawsalled thru it.
We will be there all next week.
Rich
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The last problem is the way the deck is flashed. See below. The only thing between the rim board and the house is housewrap. The flashing on the 5/4x 6 with some silicone underneath. The deck is over a walk out basement and the whole length of the house. The deck boards are tight against the sliding doors and trim. I will be ugly trying to get them out to properly flash this deck. The bill is already getting out of hand. Oh the joys of opening up rot.
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I see you also had the same problem of the siding down tight on the shingles there.Job security!
;)I notice a pink woven housewrap that I am not familiar with, but it looks like the greengaurd that I've used to provide a wicking capilary action like a rainscreen wall - in theory anyways.If that is the same intent of this, do you have an opinion of whether it works that way - when fools don't inject water right behind it anyways?
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Piffen
The pink house wrap is made by Owens-Corning. It's about the same stuff as Greenguard.
I don't like it and wouldn't trust it. It reminds me of blue tarps. after a week in the sun a blue tar keeps out water like a cheese cloth.
i usually use Tvyek and that is what is the dominant housewrap in this area.
I know there are alot that don't like it, but.
Rich
Gottacha
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In #18 is that paper below the Ice/water shield on top the I/W shield or under it? It looks like the paper below is set to funnel water into the house?
In that one, they managed to slit the housewrap as they cut the I&W in place.
apparently it was a common practice for that crew..
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Gentlemen, just think of the possibilities for the Rot Doctor.
Of course, with vinyl siding and no outward signs-might be a little too far gone by the time they find it.
As I'v heard many times in the last few years-
"how could that have happened?"........A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I can see plenty of opportunity to get through the depression, if you don't get depressed working on rot repairs.
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I hear you. As I've done a repair in a 70's/80's and surprisingly late 90's neighborhood............and looked down the street at the very similarly framed houses...........
Maybe some of those door hangers-"Hi, working in your neighborhood on some rot repair/water intrusion and noticed some similarities in your home's construction"
Kinda make me feel like a "water in the basement'' concern.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Piffin
I would love to see pics of the work site.
I didn't intend it to be, but this could be a good thread with some good learning opportunities.
Hijack this thread, that's what it is here for.
Rich
The company that put those windows in originally should get this book.http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/4926c22906e820b627170a32100a0604/Product/View/MC907It would help you and your people too.Also a similar discusion here:http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45254
reinvent
Thanks for the tip. I read that article when it came out in JLC (with the guy installing window wrap properly). I know the book will contain more than just the article. I'll give it a try.
Rich
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View ImageJLC Guide to Moisture Control
Practical Details for Durable Buildings
From roof to basement, here's a practical guide for contractors on how to keep moisture out of a house. The editors of JLC have pulled together the best advice from dozens of experts on foundations and drainage, air and vapor control, exterior cladding, roof systems, and mechanical ventilation. It's filled with practical details and effective solutions for the kinds of serious moisture problems afflicting today's tighter and better sealed houses. And it includes a comprehensive troubleshooting guide, including advice for dealing with mold and rot.
reinvent
Here are a couple of pics of the results of the X method of wrapping a window with housewrap. I know I have done my share this way until I learned a better way.
Rich
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you could make a living replacing marvin windows from that vintage. marvin had some kind of paint coating process that just did not hold up. windows are rotting from the face inward.
overrated overpriced
for the rechord I've seen a few of those marvin windows all rotted out in my neck of the woods too______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
They had a wood preservative problem in some of their 87/89 time period windows. Originally they dealt with it by no cost replacement-dwindled to 25% off cost of window only. Timing was everything.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
As others have pointed out, it was a preservative problem. PPG switched formulation of the preservative that a lot of the mfgs were using at the time. Only Marvin made any concession to the end customers, I believe even though the the court ruled that it was not their liability, rather PPG's.I repaired a house full of them a few summers ago. Not sure what brand they actually were. Owner did not want to spring for new windows. Wound up cutting out the rotten bits of the windows, scarfing in replacement wood, and then cladding the sill and up the sides of the jamb behind the jambliners with copper...essentially creating an external sill pan. Steve
this is all just a learning curve, after all, we just started using windows in this country a few years ago.
Awhile back Marvin had major problems with their PPG finished windows. Marvin sued and finally won in a court battle with PPG. Meanwhile the customer gets screwed. I believe Marvin did replace some of the windows, but did NOT widely alert the public to this fact.
as Calvin noted, that was about 87-89 and all the window makers had the same problem then. This seems to be from more recent. It has me thinking of checking on a job where I used a lot of them about 12 years ago.
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Piffin
This house was built in 1995. 13 years ago.
Rich
Piffin
This house was built in 1995, 13 years ago.
If you take the windows out then you can remove the guide like this.
Of course you already knew that.
Rich
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Pelipeth
This was more than a perservative problem.
The factory did not seal the joint between the side jamb and the sill jamb.
The sill was metal clad.
Rich