Anyone know here that pic is that was posted here some time ago that showed badly rusted nails in ACQ lumber? I’d like to print it out to show someone at work.
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Matt,
I don't believe these are the pictures that you are referring too, but I believe you will find them useful. These are pictures from a deck that I was hired to give a 'face-lift'. It was about 2 years old, all ACQ. Regular (not hot-dipped) galvy hangers were used. Our job was to demo the decking and railings and replace with Trex decking and cedar railings. Once we got the decking off, we also had to replace all of the hardware including joist hangers as well as re-fasten all other mechanical connections. This was not in a coastal area mind you. The saddles of about 75% of the hangers were toast.
DPI am glad i used ss and hot dipped fasteners on ACQ. I am saving those pics to show people how quickly the wrong connectors will corrode. I am sure there will be some deck failures and major lawsuits. I think there was a thread about that.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I agree on future lawsuits being big news one day soon. I really think this whole ACQ switchover was about the dumbest thing to ever come about. Must have been the people with the right money influencing the right people.... Aside from over-reactionary behaviors and media sendationalism, I don't think the old treated lumber was a real problem. Matter-of-fact, I believe there will be more death and injury as a result of the new lumber vs the old stuff.... furthermore, I'm not even sure the old stuff had any victims (aside from shotty workmanship but that's a different issue)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15777172&dopt=Abstract
The EPA has not concluded that CCA-treated wood poses any unreasonable risk to the public or the environment. Nevertheless, As is a known human carcinogen and, thus, the EPA believes that any reduction in the levels of potential exposure to As is desirable.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete, I agree whole heartedly in that I too thing the whole ACQ switchover is a bunch of hocus-pocus that created more problems than it has solved. I've seen a couple of my guys get nasty rashes from handling ACQ and we've never had that problem with the CCA. I believe that as long as you don't let your kids chew on it, it probably would have been fine.View Image
As far as kids eating PT boards - yea, well, there is this thing called natural selection. ;-)
anyone got any pics of rusted nails in ACQ lumber?
It's like no one is listening, isn't it?
I will try and seach for them.
Edit - my luck with the search function was even less fruitful than usual. I know the pic you were talking about. I think it showed 2 or 3 nails in the ACQ stuff bandsawed in half to show that most of some of the nails had corroded away.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Edited 11/21/2006 5:46 pm by jhausch
Out of curiosity, I searched high and low for that pic, to no avail. I remember it.
Hmmmmm..... I smell a conspiracy. FHB in bed with the ACQ manufacturers? I knew it! ;)View Image
Ya, Lowes is trying to cover their backside.
Agreed- CCA was yet another good product killed by idiotic chemophobia. And remember, CCA was the alternative to penta (PCP- not the horse tranquilizer kind, but the less fun kind that came with a dose of dioxin in every batch), which itself was the alternative to coal tar creosote...this puppy's been around the block a few times. Face it- if it fends off bugs that eat wood, it's just not gonna be good for you! The biggest toxicological risk with CCA lumber was the Cr+6 in the sawdust, which was a much bigger problem for the carpenters than for the owners or their kids. Even that wasn't much of an increased risk versus breathing in untreated sawdust.
Great pics.
I am using the triple Z hangers and hot dipped hanger nails, but I am first stapling up some 15# felt btw hanger and ledger, then wrapping the joist (2 sides and bottom) with another piece of 15# felt.
The idea is to isolate the wood from the hanger since they are not SS. I sure hope the hanger nails last.
I'll post pics on the blog tomorrow.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Thanks Bryan.
All: I'm still looking for the pic of the nails though. I'm making my framers go around and renail (toe nail) the studs to the PT bottom plate (slab floor) on several houses. They have done 1 thus far, and I don't think they understand it and probably think I'm a nut.
DP:
Thanks for the pics. I am currently dealing with a HO who is extremely skeptical about my stories about ACQ treated lumber. I am going to print those out right now and give them to him tomorrow.
BILL
diesel-
great pics. Thanks for posting those. They'll be around the world by Monday.;o)The end move in politics is always to pick up a gun. R. Buckminster Fuller
Even with HDG ("Triple Z") hangers and HDG nails, here is what we did:
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Even with the HDG ("TripleZ") hangers and HDG nails, here is what we did. Also, for the 4 "toe nails" in this hanger style, I used 3-1/4" 12 or 16d. I think that is what is supposed to be done, but I usually see folks just put more of the 1-1/2" joist hanger nails in those spots.
The staples that hold this tarpaper won't last long, but they are more for installation ease. I looked for SS joist hanger nails at the home center but did not see any. I sure hope there is enough galvy and meat on these to last.
Oops, see pics next post
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Edited 11/20/2006 7:14 am by jhausch
Here it is
View Image
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Oh, you made moisture traps. That is good how?
http://www.petedraganic.com/
It has been my experience that Asphalt Impregnated Felt (aka Tar Paper) dries very well when conditions allow. What I am trying to prevent is ACQ/Metal contact.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Edited 11/20/2006 12:09 pm by jhausch
What you might want to do is cut that felt back to within, say, 1/4" of the hangers. That way the metal is still protected, and you reduce the moisture trapping problem to a very good extent.
Another thing to consider: Before you lay your planks, run strips of felt about 3" wide centered on the tops of the joists, and fold their edges down at about a 45 degree angle. This protects the tops of the joists from moisture trapping between the planks. IWS would be even better.
There's nothing like demoing a few old decks to see what not to do. ;-)
-- J.S.
That's a good suggestion - the cutting back.
This deck will have a roof, but the back deck will not. I will consider your other suggestion for that. I will be using synthetic decking on both (Timbertech?, I think)
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
That looks like as good a system as any, but like Pete said... I'm not sure whether it does more harm than good. I really don't know all the answers to all the ACQ questions. I'm afraid none of us do and only time will tell.
FWIW, you're better off not having found the SS joist hanger nails you were looking for. You don't want to mix galvy with SS. That's as big a no-no as using electro-galvy or common nails.
I believe the hangers you were referring to are Simpson's 'double shear nailing' hangers. And yes, you should be using a 10D nail for the toe-nail portion and Teco or 'hanger nails' for the face nailing are fine.
I use the double hot dipped galvy nails with Simpson Z-max joist hangers and hardware. No paper, no vycor. If it's good enough for Simpson then it's good enough for me too and I sleep well at night believing that I'm doing a good job.
If I were building in coastal area I would build with SS hangers and SS fasteners.
I'm not saying my way is the right way or the only way by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just sharing how I work with ACQ decks.View Image
Matt, I don't have direct experience with this so far, but you may not need to worry much about a PT plate inside the building envelope. Once it dries there isn't moisture to support corrosion.
That is what I'm kinda thinking but don't have data or expierence to support it. I need to do a test...