Sunken Room Flooding Problem.doc
<!—-><!—-> <!—->
<!—->My friends recently bought an old (early 60’s) one story, slab on grade, stud and stucco house in S. Cal. recently that had a sunken family room added on in ’68 (the floor slab of which is about two feet below the floor slab grade of the rest of the house). A swimming pool adjacent adjacent to the sunken room was also added in ’74. With all the unusually heavy rain we’ve had here lately, the sunken room has continued to flood despite some remdedial work that was recently done that did not solve the problem. <!—->
The house was upgraded with various other cosmetic improvements just before they bought it last summer including a restucco on the exterior and new stamped concrete resurfacing of the concrete patio around the pool in the backyard and sidewalks along the east side of the house and around the front. The west side of the house also has an older concrete sidewalk that abuts the house along the east length of it, including the added on sunken room, in the back portion of the house. The resurfaced patio around the backyard pool also abuts the added on sunken room on both the south and west sides (the east side of it adjoins the rest of the house). When the flooding first occured a few weeks ago, a new “French” drainage trench was sawcut along the length of the sunken room about 6 inches deep, about 4 inches wide and about 4 inches outward of the eastern wall of the sunken room for the entire length of the room (about 30 feet). A one foot deep by one foot square plastic resevoir was installed at the southerly end of the trench along with a sump pump to eject water to the street as the resevoir fills up from drainage in the new trench. Gutters were also installed along the eaves above that same new trench and “Drylock” waterproofing was applied to the exterior of the east wall above the sidewalk grade but not below. The concept of these repairs was that water from the roof was not draining properly from this area causing standing water to then leak into the sunken room. However, when the problem arose again after the rains resumed after the repairs were completed, the problem seems to now be also related to the fact that the interior wall of the sunken room extends below the grade of the abutting sidewalk and patio by about two feet. With the water table being so high due to our recent unusual rains, there is obviously another source of water intrusion that we are at a loss to determine in addition to the roof drainage that has now been eliminated. We have not yet excavated the below grade portion of the walls of the sunken room on the outside to determine if waterproofing is still intact or if it was ever applied in the first place when built in ’68. At first we thought that the continued problem might be associated with poor drainage on the abutting portion of the rear patio and around the perimeter of the rest of the house. So, we had a civil engineer inspect it and it appears that there are, in fact, improper grades sloping in towards the house causing ponding in several areas around the perimeter. There are 5 floor drains installed in the patio around the pool and they all appear to be tied in to one drain pipe that drains under the patio to the street. However, contrary to my initial theory, they all seem to be draining freely and no significant water is ponding in the patio around the pool or abutting the house in the back near the sunkent room that has flooded although there is significant ponding elsewhere around the opposite side and front of the house in the planter areas between the house and sidewalk. It is obvious that water is “wicking” up the exterior walls from such ponding areas thus creating dampness but no flooding in the walls above grade in these other areas. Mold inside the walls is suspected in these areas, however, and mold has been confirmed inside the below grade portions of the exterior walls of the sunken room. It was also determined by the civil engineer that the weep screeds were covered over all around the house when it was restuccoed recently. The civil engineer recommended doing a detailed topographical survey “of the entire property” to confirm the improper slopes around the house before being able to then stipulate certain additional remedial repair work. He also said that some destructive testing of the below grade portion of the sunken room’s exterior wall and underlying foundation and perhaps, even its floor slab, would also be necessary to determine the extent of waterproofing there, if any, and to determine if the design details of such “as built” conditions were appropriately engineered to prevent such flooding. Then, he said he could propose certain corrective designs and additional remedial repair work (ie. more french drains, regrading of the lawn and flower beds, lowering the recently installed french drain and sump pump to deepen it below the floor slab grade in the sunken room, etc.) in a formal, certified and “stamped” report that could then be relied upon for bidding with repair contractors and for subsequent use relative to possible insurance and legal issues. The cost of his survey and report would be about $1500 before we even started to spend any more money to commence repairs. <!—->
My question to anyone who may have had experience in such situations is whether we are pursuing the right course of action by working with a civil engineer who has experience in hydrology and drainage matters. I’m wondering if his comprehensive approach might be “overkill” in case we could save time and money by simply focusing more immediately on just the design and waterproofing of the walls of the sunken room (rather than first studying the topography of the entire property)? Should we instead of, or in addition to, contact an architect first in regard to the more specific design issues pertaining to the walls of the sunken room and perhaps even/or simply a waterproofing contractor that could advise us (presumably at less or no cost) more specifically on how we could more effectively waterproof the underground portion of the sunken room walls and possibly lowering the newly installed trench and resevoir/pump? Any and all comments would be most gratefully apprciated. Dave Weigel 714-840-5397 / [email protected] <!—->
Edited 2/25/2005 2:14 am ET by Dave
Replies
I'm sorry...
that post is impossible to read...
I need glasses and for this itty bitty font and it all runs together...
others, I think will have the same problem too...
to encourge replies could you help us out a bit here...
break it up into short(er) paragraphs and use one or two fonts larger...
thanks and welcome to BT Dave...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
OK. Will do. Sorry and thanks. DW
Dave..
do you feel that the corrective action for the top side rain run off is adequate?
a deeper sump(s), drains at or below footer level and water proofing on the EXTERIOR of the room's walls are major pluses..
A survey may help.. but....
do you see any thing that suggest perculation or seepage at the footer / wall / slab juctions???
some thing tells me that the pool is acting as a diverter or a dam and holding the underground water against the foundation and the water is finding a way in...
the apron(s) are acting as a cork to the ground water also... the water has to go some place...
pictures are nice.. if you can hold them to around 100KB or so... there's a bunch of us here that haven't progressed out out of the stone age yet...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Thanks a million for your comments.
Apparently the prior corrective fix for roof runoff was NOT adequate because after spending a lot of money to have it done, the flooding came back with the next rain.
Additional exterior waterproofing and lowering the sump and drainage trench below the footing does seem to be a logical next step but I'm not a hydrology expert.
A survey including a topo of other parts of the house would perhaps divert attention from the immediate issue around the sunken room and seems to be a possibly unnecessary expense except as it pertains to other drainage issues elsewhere around the house. That's why I'm wondering if we should be seeking another "expert" in another field such as an architect, waterproofing contractor, foundation contractor, etc.?
The close proximity of the pool DOES seem logical to be a factor but again, who would be the proper "expert" to consult with (pool contractor)?
Water on the patio drains into 5 floor sinks and then collects into one pipe that exits to the street. It seems to be running freely.
We were also advised that we should perform a water supply system pressure test with the city water company to see if we have any possible leakage that could be going under the patio or floor slabs. Do you agree?
My friends may have some digital photos. I'll ask them to help get them posted if so. Many thanks for your kind thoughts. What's your area of expertise in these matters? Dave
Easy Tiger, get rid of the blue and the big font.
Sunken Room Flooding Problem.doc<!----><!---->
<!----><!----> <!----><!---->
<!---->My friends recently bought an old (early 60's) one story, slab on grade, stud and stucco house in S. Cal. recently that had a sunken family room added on in '68 (the floor slab of which is about two feet below the floor slab grade of the rest of the house). A swimming pool adjacent adjacent to the sunken room was also added in '74. With all the unusually heavy rain we've had here lately, the sunken room has continued to flood despite some remedial work that was recently done that did not solve the problem. <!----><!---->
The house was upgraded with various other cosmetic improvements just before they bought it last summer including a restucco on the exterior and new stamped concrete resurfacing of the concrete patio around the pool in the backyard and sidewalks along the east side of the house and around the front. The west side of the house also has an older concrete sidewalk that abuts the house along the east length of it, including the added on sunken room, in the back portion of the house. The resurfaced patio around the backyard pool also abuts the added on sunken room on both the south and west sides (the east side of it adjoins the rest of the house). <!---->
When the flooding first occurred a few weeks ago, a new "French" drainage trench was saw cut along the length of the sunken room about 6 inches deep, about 4 inches wide and about 4 inches outward of the eastern wall of the sunken room for the entire length of the room (about 30 feet). A one foot deep by one foot square plastic reservoir was installed at the southerly end of the trench along with a sump pump to eject water to the street as the reservoir fills up from drainage in the new trench. Gutters were also installed along the eaves above that same new trench and "Drylock" waterproofing was applied to the exterior of the east wall above the sidewalk grade but not below. <!---->
The concept of these repairs was that water from the roof was not draining properly from this area causing standing water to then leak into the sunken room. However, when the problem arose again after the rains resumed after the repairs were completed, the problem seems to now be also related to the fact that the interior wall of the sunken room extends below the grade of the abutting sidewalk and patio by about two feet. With the water table being so high due to our recent unusual rains, there is obviously another source of water intrusion that we are at a loss to determine in addition to the roof drainage that has now been eliminated. <!---->
We have not yet excavated the below grade portion of the walls of the sunken room on the outside to determine if waterproofing is still intact or if it was ever applied in the first place when built in '68. At first we thought that the continued problem might be associated with poor drainage on the abutting portion of the rear patio and around the perimeter of the rest of the house. So, we had a civil engineer inspect it and it appears that there are, in fact, improper grades sloping in towards the house causing ponding in several areas around the perimeter. <!---->
There are 5 floor drains installed in the patio around the pool and they all appear to be tied in to one drain pipe that drains under the patio to the street. However, contrary to my initial theory, they all seem to be draining freely and no significant water is ponding in the patio around the pool or abutting the house in the back near the sunken room that has flooded although there is significant ponding elsewhere around the opposite side and front of the house in the planter areas between the house and sidewalk. It is obvious that water is "wicking" up the exterior walls from such ponding areas thus creating dampness but no flooding in the walls above grade in these other areas. <!---->
Mold inside the walls is suspected in these areas, however, and mold has been confirmed inside the below grade portions of the exterior walls of the sunken room. It was also determined by the civil engineer that the weep screeds were covered over all around the house when it was restuccoed recently. The civil engineer recommended doing a detailed topographical survey "of the entire property" to confirm the improper slopes around the house before being able to then stipulate certain additional remedial repair work. He also said that some destructive testing of the below grade portion of the sunken room's exterior wall and underlying foundation and perhaps, even its floor slab, would also be necessary to determine the extent of waterproofing there, if any, and to determine if the design details of such "as built" conditions were appropriately engineered to prevent such flooding. <!---->
Then, he said he could propose certain corrective designs and additional remedial repair work (i.e. more french drains, regrading of the lawn and flower beds, lowering the recently installed french drain and sump pump to deepen it below the floor slab grade in the sunken room, etc.) in a formal, certified and "stamped" report that could then be relied upon for bidding with repair contractors and for subsequent use relative to possible insurance and legal issues. The cost of his survey and report would be about $1500 before we even started to spend any more money to commence repairs. <!----><!---->
My question to anyone who may have had experience in such situations is whether we are pursuing the right course of action by working with a civil engineer who has experience in hydrology and drainage matters. I'm wondering if his comprehensive approach might be "overkill" in case we could save time and money by simply focusing more immediately on just the design and waterproofing of the walls of the sunken room (rather than first studying the topography of the entire property)? Should we instead of, or in addition to, contact an architect first in regard to the more specific design issues pertaining to the walls of the sunken room and perhaps even/or simply a waterproofing contractor that could advise us (presumably at less or no cost) more specifically on how we could more effectively waterproof the underground portion of the sunken room walls and possibly lowering the newly installed trench and reservoir/pump? Any and all comments would be most gratefully appreciated. Dave Weigel
I also wouldn't post your phone number or e-mail, might get some strange calls. :0)
dave..i'd like to help.. but i'm not going to read that... sorryMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's what I was thinking ...
Mike would like to help ...
but he ain't gonna read that!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
oh, shut upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Apparently the prior corrective fix for roof runoff was NOT adequate because after spending a lot of money to have it done, the flooding came back with the next rain.
that my be part of it but I'm WTB that you have a more serious under ground problem.. those drains you do have can't be deep enough to address all of the problems...
can you tell where the water is entering the room...
Additional exterior waterproofing and lowering the sump and drainage trench below the footing does seem to be a logical next step but I'm not a hydrology expert.
that seems to be the logical approach... put the sump a bit below the footers and the drain at the footings... you wouldn't want to risk undermining the footers..
A survey including a topo of other parts of the house would perhaps divert attention from the immediate issue around the sunken room and seems to be a possibly unnecessary expense except as it pertains to other drainage issues elsewhere around the house. That's why I'm wondering if we should be seeking another "expert" in another field such as an architect, waterproofing contractor, foundation contractor, etc.?
Drainage and water proofing seems to be the way tpo look at it 1st...
The close proximity of the pool DOES seem logical to be a factor but again, who would be the proper "expert" to consult with (pool contractor)?
I doupt it....
Water on the patio drains into 5 floor sinks and then collects into one pipe that exits to the street. It seems to be running freely.
good..
We were also advised that we should perform a water supply system pressure test with the city water company to see if we have any possible leakage that could be going under the patio or floor slabs. Do you agree?
No... But I'll bet the gound is at limits for saturation and the rain pushes it over the edge.. do you know what kind of soils surround the mini pool...
use the default settings for font and color for posting.. you'll get more help...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Edited 2/25/2005 3:26 pm ET by IMERC
Many thanks. I'm forwarding your input to my friends for their use. Much appreciated. Dave (Flood Guy)
is the pool leaking
We don't think so. The level seems to be stable but the excavation for it back in 74 could have conceiveably changed the slopes and drainage in the rest of the yard. Thanks for your interest. Dave
Any chance the water table has risen to the point it's causing some of the flooding? I'm in San Jose (400 miles north of you) and we've had an unusually wet winter too.
I hope that the french drain has enough 'drop' to handle the water you're getting this year. French drains are only as effective as the grade 'drop' will let them be.
You're probably correct about the water table. That's why the civil engineer wants to survey all the grades with a topo. This has been a 100 year flood situation so the probability of similar high water table problems in the future will be lower in the future but my friends aren't willing to take the chance and spend a lot more money and possibly have it happen all over again (which would then be the third time). We may need a soils engineer come out and do some test borings to determine the level of the water table too as a next step. This is a very flat area so you make a very good point about the French drain "drop" too. Thanks a million for your interest and comments. Dave the Flood Guy
PS: I know the way to San Jose. Great area. DW
Glad to help - if it was helpful. - lol
The survey data will definitely help define the problem and keep the focus on workable solutions. Your friends will want to pay close attention to the costs, however. How much do they want to spend to avoid a problem that only occurs once a century - on average. It's all about cost/benefit.
If I were doing this in a nearly flat area, I would look at a french drain sloping into a drywell with a submersible pump to move the water from the drywell to the street. Naturally, the next several years would be very dry and the whole thing would be unused. - lol
You make a great point about the cost/value benefit. Chances are that we won't have any more significant rain now, as we approach the end of the rainy season, until next winter. If it was me, I would probably do the diagnosis portion of the project to get a good handle on what it will take to fix the problem for the long term. Then I might pursue whatever recourse that might be available to get it paid for by insurance, etc. (if that's a possible avenue of approach). Then, when I was able to determine what the "net" cost to me was going to be, I would probably weigh the cost/value benefit, as you suggested, and decide what to do in terms of spending my own money to proceed with getting it fixed. The repairs could even be done in phases based on the availability of cash to spend on them. Nonetheless, having the problem properly diagnosed will probably enhance the resale value if the repairs turn out to be more trouble than they are worth and they decide to move again instead. Thanks a million for your interest and comments. Dave
How's that? DW
all right...
yur 1st post came thru the same size as my tag line and very dense..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
. . . and, as demonstrated in the preceding posts, try to make frequent use of ellipses . . . that, too will break up your text ! ! !
To steal a phrase . . . ROAR ! ! !
Greg
I did not see the orginal one.But this one is also bad.Just leave it in the default font and size. AND COLOR.That is the way 95% of the messages are.And break up the paragraphs a little.
any chance of finding the original building plans for the sunken room - check w/local building officials(inspections) to see what was, at least supposed to be built? might give you some info on waterproofing, drains and such - sounds like your friends now have an indoor pool (maybe make is into a "hot tub/japanese bath????)
Getting the original building plans is a great idea and one I was also going to suggest. However, the sunken room addition was done in 1968 and the "outdoor" pool was added in 1972. So, it's doubtful that the City Building Dept. or the architect or the contractors that did the work will still have them. If such plans could be located, it would be a revelation, not only in terms of how the foundations and waterproofing structure was designed (and presumably approved by the city) but also whether the work was actually done per the plans and specs. Beyond that, it would probably be interesting to know what the city building codes require for such foundation and waterproofing systems to see if the existing conditions comply with code. Thanks a million for your interest and comments. Dave the Flood Guy