I’ve got an issue with people I hire that keeps cropping up and wondered if I could get some opinions.
I’m a homeowner DIY type who occasionally hires a pro (or a pro’s crew helper) to handle something I can’t or to help out. More often than not, I find my threshold for safe working practices exceeds theirs–meaning I see them doing stuff that I think is slightly (and sometimes exceedingly) dangerous, and that could be easily avoided.
Latest example–I hired a young guy recently to help me frame up a shed. He works for a local builder, went to vocational school and seems to know his stuff pretty well. I noticed he was making cuts with his saw and using his nail gun without any eye protection, so I offered him a pair of glasses, which he refused. I dropped it.
I also noticed he has a habit of holding his free hand fairly close to the area he’s nailing when aligning two pieces of wood. . .at one point a nail came out the side of a stud and nicked his finger (nothing serious, but a half inch further over could’ve easily had me running him to the emergency room).
This isn’t just young guys–I’ve had older guys who you’d think would know better wedging the blade guards of their saws pretty much all the time, or poking stock through a table saw with their fingers. I once offered a guy a pair of chaps as he was about to take down a leaner with a chainsaw and he refused saying “I never wear those–I need to be able to run if I need to.”
Now in general I keep my mouth shut and figure it’s their business. But I’m getting increasingly uncomfortable when this happens on my property in a situation where I’m hiring the guy. Part of me says, hey, if somebody’s going to work for me at my place, they need to work safe.
But how do I say that tactfully? How do I tell people that without offending them and making them feel like I’m stepping out of my bounds?
Replies
The biggest problem is that people who don't take their safety seriously are often the same breed who are prone to suing. If you insist politely, just say, 'I would feel much better...' That way if they hurt themselves, you cannot be held responsible. Maybe a lawyer could tell you better, but that's what I do.
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People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.
Jacob
as a professional carpenter, I probably do a lot of stuff that a HO would find uncomfortable. For instance, I tend to hold boards pretty close to where I'm shooting. And yes, I've have gotten nicked a couple of times.
However, when you hire someone to help you, under your supervision, you take on the liability if they get injured. Next time, when you ask someone to work with you, tell them you expect them to use and wear appropriate safety measures and gear.
Otherwise, you might be seeing them in the ER, or worse, in court.
However, if you are just hiring someone to do a job, not as help, I'd say butt out. Make sure they have worker's comp and liability, and let them do their job.
Make sure they have worker's comp and liability, and let them do their job.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Either, DIY, or higher a qualified/insured professional. Can't have the best of both worlds.
If he DIY's, or gets some volunteer help, it is easy to speak up about his safety concerns.
If he hires an insured pro, he doesn't have to worry about liability. The only worry becomes how to clean up the blood.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
Can't tell from your (lack of a ) profile where you hail from, but I can tell you that the law in many New York cases is that unless you directly tell them to use the safety equipment and they refuse, you are screwed. I handled these for about 20 years, (NYS ATTY REG # 1915818) and it amazed me how stupid people could be. Example - man walks across a rooftop skylight for three days, until he finally hits it right and it breaks. He falls through, gets tangled in the steel webbing and f's up his ankle (tri--mallealeor fracture). Courts hold it's the owner's fault for not properly protecting the worksite. Want examples, there's lots of 'em out there.
Your call, but I think you want to make it clear when you hire them, they need to follow good safety practices - including any that you feel are necessary. Some of these guys will think you are nuts, so try part B - include a release of liability (to you) and hold harmless (in your favor) if he violates the rules. Then make sure they have insurance.
Somebody said in a recent post that the workers get paid better than Burger King because it's more dangerous to be on a construction site. If you are running the job, it's your responsibilty to protect them, even if it's from themselves.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this.The liability issue is in the back of my mind, but I guess I was thinking more about how to insist that a guy working with power tools at my place uses safety glasses, for example, without coming across as a jerk who thinks he can tell everybody else how to do their job. The fact is, I don't want anybody who's working with or for me to get hurt, period, regardless of liability. But at the same time I want to respect their judgement and not try and dictate how they should do their job.I guess I'm just wondering whether there's a graceful way of insisting on basic safety. I often try a little humor, but things can get a little tense if the person refuses. Nobody likes to be told that they're being unsafe and they need to change their work habits--it's insulting. My practice to date has been to back off. But that doesn't sit well with me, seems like just an easy way to avoid conflict. Part of me thinks I should just in a very friendly and non-confrontational way say at the outset "I don't want to see anybody get hurt so please work safely, and that includes wearing safety glasses, etc." And if that doesn't jive with them then fine, I hire somebody else. If they think I'm out of line, fine. . .better that then having somebody out of work for 6 months or permanently disabled because of something that happened with me.And I guess I wonder too about hiring pros who have insurance, worker's comp. etc., and just letting them take their chances. I was once working for a contractor and a flooring guy was ripping oak on his table saw with no guard and literally pushing pieces through with his hand inches from the blade. If that's my house, I say forget it, I don't care if you're insured up the wazoo and you've been doing this for 30 years, you aren't working stupid like that while I'm paying you.
Edited 11/8/2005 9:50 pm ET by Megunticook
I don't care if you're insured up the wazoo and you've been doing this for 30 years, you aren't working stupid like that while I'm paying you.
That's some interesting big talk from a guy who can't figure out how to make an employee wear safety glasses!
I find it interesting that DIY's think that just because they read their entire safety manual, they are actually working safer than someone who has lived this job their entire life. You guys do so many dumb things that I can't bear to watch you's. I'd have to wear blinders around 90% of the DIY's that I've been around. You guys are scary!
blue
That's some interesting big talk from a guy who can't figure out how to make an employee wear safety glasses!
I find it interesting that DIY's think that just because they read their entire safety manual, they are actually working safer than someone who has lived this job their entire life. You guys do so many dumb things that I can't bear to watch you's. I'd have to wear blinders around 90% of the DIY's that I've been around. You guys are scary!
Now that's exactly the kind of reaction I'm afraid I'll get if I make an issue out of safety, and why until this point I've backed down when I sense resistance. The question is how do you insist on safety respectfully, and then be prepared to say "thanks anyway" and find somebody else if the person gets defensive about it.
By the way, you're right that DIYs are notoriously dangerous--I still cringe when I think of a landlord I had who was too cheap to hire a pro for any maintenance and hacked away with his Craftsman saw while binding the worn out blade on every cut he tried to make. I used to be pretty foolish myself, but as I've gotten older, started a family who depend on me, I respect the tools I use and take precautions. I've heard enough stories and seen enough guys with missing fingers and such to know that it happens all the time.
Do I "know more" than a pro? Not at all. . .but there are pros out there who get pretty casual about safety, and it's like driving without a seat belt--you can be the best driver in the world but if the cards fall the wrong way and some idiot plows into you, you're pretty vulnerable.
Edited 11/9/2005 1:46 am ET by Megunticook
Megunticook,
I have been to the ER several times to have debris "drilled" out of my eyeball------------------- So, needless to say --- I am a big fan of safety glasses
However----- If you ANY homeowner were to TELL me to wear safety glasses
You would Pizz me off beyond belief----you have NO idea how insulting and patronizing your attitude would be percieved--------
and since wearing/not wearing safety glasses is the LEAST important of safety issues I am going to have to deal with to complete any of my projects------ You and I would be parting company.
If you want---state your requirements BEFORE hiring---- that's fair---------
If You bring it up AFTER the fact----you are out of line.
Hire the insured and get out of our way.
Best wishes, Stephen
BTW----blue probably routinely does things with a saw that would horrify me------- not my problem.
I ,quite possibly ,regularly do things that would make blue wet his pants----not HIS problem either
YOU, making well intentioned, but semi informed ,judgements about what is safe for someone else----is WAY out of line
Edited 11/9/2005 7:28 am ET by Hazlett
Safety is safety - doesn't matter whether or not it is "safe for someone else". Standard safety practices should be used regardless of who is doing the work, doesn't matter if they are insured or not.
Best thing to do is get a certificate of insurance prior to allowing someone on your jobsite.
Jon,
I strongly disagree.
Let's look at tablesaws--------- I don't use mine all that often---it scares me----so I consider myself to be unsafe when working with it in ANY fashion.
Someone like---oh say Stan Foster, probably uses one all the time and is capable of doing things with one safely---that would be very foolish of me to attempt( He knows his safety zone---and I know my limitations.)
On the other hand---on a roof I am safe doing a variety of things maybe Stan Foster shouldn't even think of doing.
Of course this is constantly evolving---- I could routinely do things on a roof at age 28 I wouldn't dream of doing now at 43------ and I certainly wouldn't dream of telling Stan how to use his tablesaw.
I certainly wouldn't tolerate a homeowner projecting HIS fears onto ME---( I have enough of my own to worry about, LOL)
Stephen
I think the point they've been making here is that, you are safer with your table saw than Stan Foster is with his, and you are less safe on the roof than Stan because familiarity breeds contempt, you know, done it a million times before so I can do it again ..
No , Wane-------
they may be TRYING to make that point---but that doesn't make their point correct.
the only conceivable way I might be safer with my table saw than Stan with his---is if I never turn mine on.
however ---if I EVER turn mine on---than I will certainly bow to Stans superiority of judgement in table saw safety.
Regaurding rooftop safety
the " familiarity breeds contempt" ---is a popular stance----but it seems to imply that knowledge, education, experience etc. are more dangerous than ignorance.
BTW---this entire issue is only one of the reasons I prefer to avoid as much as possible having employees.
What is safe for me---with experience---might not be safe for an 18 year old new hire rookie----conversely what is safe for the 25 year old who has been doing this for 7 years-----might not be safe for me with my atrophying balance at age 43 .
Stephen
Safety isn't determined by the lowest common denominator
Edited 11/9/2005 3:36 pm ET by Hazlett
Edited 11/9/2005 3:40 pm ET by Hazlett
Stephen,
I think what I was trying to say is that there should be a minimum standard of safety on a job site, regardless of the site, the equipment, or the personnel. I agree that a homeowner standing there while you run your fingers within 1" of a saw blade should not be preaching to you about safety after the fact. However, if you are expected, either verbally or in writing, to observe certain safety practices on any given job site, and you are expected to have insurance - you can bet that if you don't have the insurance you won't be allowed on my site; and if you violate that safety code, you're gone.
There are some things that just have to be done - there's an inherent risk in construction. On the other hand, if you're just being a bonehead, I'm going to call you on it. I write the checks as the homeowner, and I don't have to tolerate unsafe activities on my site. Seems a lot of guys wave off the nail gun shot to the hand or foot, or the close calls with saws or other equipment. Fine, wave it off, it's no big deal.... unless I catch you. Bye-bye.
I've been a corporate safety director and a fire department safety officer, and have written company safety policy. There's gotta be a set of standards, but a lot of it is just plain common sense.
Jon
I've been a corporate safety director and a fire department safety officer, and have written company safety policy.
Does anyone else see the irony here? Jon's done a lot of things, but he'd never worked in the field, yet he gets to make the rules.
Sounds a lot like all the OSHA stuff that is written for our jobsites.
When the b-crats create a set of rules that no one can conform too, it kinds tells me something about the set of rules. Since we're all in a catch 22, I don't know why I should bother trying to learn them all.
blue
Who says I never worked in the field? You don't start at the top (unless your rich daddy owns the company - mine didn't). As for the fire dept - they don't make the rookies the safety officers - it's usually the veterans.
There's a big difference between a company safety policy and OSHA. OSHA is a bureaucratic nightmare, and part of the reason I was made the company safety officer is because my boss couldn't be bothered to do it himself, and we needed one for the paperwork. For a construction company, especially one specializing in commercial and industrial work, the safety policy was reasonably simple. Safety glasses and hard hats were the absolute minimum. Secondary were tying off ladders, fall protection, toeboards and railings on scaffolding, etc. Monthly safety briefings usually were Monday mornings and involved coffee and donuts for the crews. But if we didn't have a safety officer, AND provide a record of the monthly meetings, AND make everyone sign the attandance sheet, AND enforce the company policy, we took a big hit on our insurance premium. I was never happy about being "the man" - most of the crew didn't take me seriously until they got written up.
Safety is something to be taken seriously, and you guys who are pros should be even more conscious of it than the typical weekend warrior. You make a living with your hands and feet, you need your eyes and your head intact; why shouldn't you protect them? Safety policies and rules are written for those people who don't give a d### about their own safety. If you're on my site and you're not being safe, I won't wait until you've bled all over my subfloor or have your foot nailed to the roof deck - I WILL call you out on it and you will comply or be gone. I don't write safety policies for others anymore, but I DO make the rules on my own site.
I'm 48 years old and started working in construction during the middle 70's. We didn't use safety glasses and the table saw did not have a blade guard.There were times we "freehand" cuts on the table saw - for example with plywood. We would cut the board without using the miter gauge or the fence. We had a line to follow and we would eyeball the cut.The worst thing that ever happened to me was getting my finger into a skil saw blade. I cut off most of the end of my finger (a small section connected the tip to the rest of the finger) and my doctor stitched it up and it healed back and the chunk missing just "filled in". The finger is fine.Years ago I was taught to cut dados on a table saw. I think this is pretty dangerous a using a router would probably be a lot safer.I guess I've been lucky that I really haven't had any serious injuries. Knock on wood. Knock Knock
Mrfixitusa, I also started in the 70's. I wasn't required to wear safety glasses but I've never made a cut without them since the late 70's myself. I don't care if joe-blow gets all kinds of crud in his eyes: I just don't want that in mine!
I am very aware of issues regarding safe scaffolding building practices. On these planks, I wrote a warning because the ends were hanging off too much. I'm the guy up there with the tools in his hands. Since I wasn't cutting, I didn't wear my safety glasses.
blue
make a living with your hands and feet, you need your eyes and your head intact; why shouldn't you protect them
I guess, since you've never tried to make a living doing this, you need to ask that question.
Safety policies and rules are written for those people who don't give a d### about their own safety
I'm not so sure about that. Those guys don't bother reading or following it anyways. It is written for the sole purpose of creating yet another layer of governmental red tape and a nice cushy job.
I DO make the rules on my own site
Like I already said, fine, just make the rules known before the guys show up.
I'm always amused at how fired up you guys get about me hurting myself. I don't care if you want to saw your arm off with your saw guard on. I don't care if you want to put twenty spikes in your brain with your safe nailgun. I do care about my own safety and I don't need you to tell me what is safe and not safe. After 30 years in the trades, I think I know how to work safe and it has nothing to do with YOUR standards.
Once I start the job, its a little too late for you to do your due dilligence. If safety was such an issue before the job started, why didn't you visit me on my jobsite and see how I work on a day to day basis. Why didn't you interview me about my safety practices before I was hired? Why didn't you provide me with a detailed safety plan before I started? Why wasn't your written safety plan posted on your living room wall when I walked in to do my work?
More questions: Do you require your surgeon to put guards on his scalpel? Do you require your police officers to carry foam nightsticks and blanks instead of bullets? Do their police dogs get all their teeth pulled to prevent possible dog bites? Do you require that the Flying Wallendas keep their high wire act within 6" of the floor? Do you read all the fine print on every safety manual before you open the box?
There are so many contradictions in our over regulated life and I certainly don't need some homeowner telling me what's good for me.
blue
Blue,
you da man----well said.
Stephen
yo go!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"...if we didn't have a safety officer, and provide a record of the monthly meetings, and..."
Along those lines, I went to our monthly foreman's meeting last night and we were told we weren't turning in enough "safety violation" forms.
Aparently the insurance co. and OHSA expect to see a certain number of violations/ corrections per so many employees.
It was also brought up that if we see violations and ignore them, when an incident happens, we are opening ourselves to lawsuits, ect. I expect the same would be true at one's home. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
jon,
I am going to choose to assume that in the real world you aren't as full of youself as your posts are making you appear.
I suspect anyone who has posted in this thread has a VERY real grasp of safety. Some of us---since it is our eyes, our hands, our spinal columns at risk every day----have a different perspective on the liklihood of specific accidents occuring based on our considerable familiarity with the equipment and operations involved, and our own individual physical abilities---------We make our choices accordingly.
Since I am the one at risk---I am NOT going to follow someone elses mandated safety policy IF I know that said policy is MORE dangerous than MY standard procedure. 90 degree 2x6 roof jacks come to mind---as do the most common ladder safety guidelines.
I'm sorry. I didn't think that I was coming off that way. I hope you and blue realize that the simple common sense things are what I'm aiming to say. A sign on the wall that says "Hard Hats and Safety Glasses Required At All Times" is often enough of a safety policy.
And I'll agree that what may be safe for you is inherently unsafe and may be dowright scary for others. I'll run a chainsaw all day long (with appropriate ear and eye protection and safety gear), but all the safety equipment in the world won't make me get up on a 12/12 roof, because it isn't safe for ME.
On the other hand, familiarity can often lead to a lack of fear and subsequent respect for the procedure or tool. You see all the time, guys who have a lifetime of experience get injured because they take their methods or machinery for granted. That's why (I THINK) there are minimum safety standards - so at least you have a chance of protection if something goes wrong and you least expect it.
Jon,
Now see----there ya go being reasonable---when I was all prepared to dis-like ya. LOL.
RE: chainsaws---- I won't touch one---they scare the bejabbers out of me. ( used one once to cut up a storm damaged weedy cherry tree----man ya can make a huge mess in about 10 minutes with a chainsaw !)
but I have watched the crews with Davey Tree----I am sure some of those guys are real artists with that saw----just not me---and I ain't gonna try and tell THEM how to use it.
Defining a minimum safety standard is the tricky part----and the part where someone ELSE can infringe upon MY ability to work safely and profitably.
What's a safe weight for one person to lift? Very different for Myself, my wife, my teenage son , my 2 year old neice and my 79 year old father. should we assume the lowest common denominator( the 2 year old or the 79 year old with a stroke)----or the average?---either way---my son and/or myself will be unduly handicapped.
What about driving----what's too old?---my dad can't drive and my mom shouldn't drive----but somewhere out there---there might be a 90 year old perfectly capable.
work in a factory---under fairly regimented circumstances---highly controlled enviornment, repetitive tasks-----standards would be easier to outline.
But I think most of us work in more of a grey area---where a procedure might have been safe during yesterdays conditions----are totally un-acceptable today----and might be perfectly fine tomorrow.
the opportunity to make those calls for myself---is worth more to me than money.
Very best wishes to you,
Stephen.
DonK's right, but froma practicval point of view, you need to know where to draw the line. And that comes from experience. Wedging open the saw guard is stupid. Cutting a board while using your leg as a saw horse is equally stupid. Nailing close to your hand is common.
If a HO told me to do things the right way (meaning follow the mfgr safety instructions) or leavr the site, I would probably work a little safer in his presence.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Be nice about it. Remember the goal is reasonable safety not absolute safety. And also there may be more than one way to get there. Safety glasses and goggles come in many forms and styles. There are also face shields in several forms. Hearing protection come in plugs and muffs.
But bottom line is your the boss and work conditions and safety enforcement are your responsibility. If they get hurt your insurance and you are on the hook. You get nailed and the neither the judge nor the jury will take 'I didn't want to offend them' seriously.
Be nice about it. Couch the requirements in term of 'would you do me a favor and...' or 'I know I'm being picky and a real pain but how about humoring my crusty ways and ...'
If that doesn't get it you could try something like 'I'm the guy who signs your paycheck so how about doing it my way' or 'I think your a great guy and a good carpenter but before you decide you don't want to play by my rules you might want to ask yourself if you like your job.'
Worse case 'If you want to play on my team you play by my rules'
Point is your on the hook. You can no more shirk safety than you avoid responsibility. You can negotiate the fine points and form safety procedures and equipment take and such negotiation are great, often a way of making the requirements more palatable. Easier to get the kid to eat vegetables if they are allowed to chose the vegetables.
Some shops set up a list of safety equipment that he employee is required to obtain and maintain.
One job I was one required I have eye protection, hearing protection, hard hat, steel toes and leather gloves. I was allocated a sum of money and given a list of specifications and local suppliers. The allowance for safety equipment was renewed regularly or if the equipment was damaged on the job.
The actual make and model of what was selected, as long as it met the minimum specifications, was of no concern. Failure to have these on my person, safety glasses and steel toes worn, at any time, in work areas, was cause for being excused from work, without pay, for the day. A second offense within an unacceptable time period was cause for dismissal. Even the union wouldn't say much.
Safety is an absolute requirement. Safety, security itself, is never absolute and there is always some risk no matter what you do but there is never any time on a job in which some degree of safety awareness and preparedness is not required.
Try to be as flexible and friendly as possible in how an equivalent level of safety is maintained but if suggestions and sweet talk don't gain compliance you have to be stern. If disciplinary measures and firing has to be threatened or used it is the cost you have to pay to be the boss.
I think it boils down to the comfort level of the tool user. I have had more than one customer stare and wince while I'm coping base or crown with my jigsaw and CCF while my thumb is 1/8" from the moving blade. I do it all the time, and it's totally safe, but it LOOKS dangerous.
I don't frame roofs everyday so whenever I have to walk plates or balance awkwardly, I feel like a wuss. Guys on the crew that do it day in and day out look superhuman compared to me. They are comfortable...I am not because I'm out of place. Kind of like you, the weekend warrior, with a guy on a framing crew.
We know how the tools feel and react and can anticipate problems. I'm not saying it's a good idea to peg a blade guard because it's not, but most times it looks worse than it is.
Oh...hire a guy with insurance and WC and don't worry about it.
Before you hire me to do a countertop, you can tell me to wear a pink and purple skirt. If I want the job bad enough, I'll put up with whatever reasonable demands a customer makes.
Sounds to me like you're hiring a bunch of contractor-wanna-be's. No license, no insurance and no common sense.
Tel them you expect professional safe behaviour at the beginning and boot 'em out if they don't deliver.Problem solved.
Please do not post a picture of you in a pink skirt. Even if you shave your legs it's gonna be a horrible sight.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Item 14.b of the contract states:"Contractor shall wear appropriate ANSI-rated skirts in the color of pink, not to exceed knee length."
> ... not to exceed knee length."
That's unclear. Exceed, but in which direction? ;-)
-- J.S.
But how do I say that tactfully? How do I tell people that without offending them and making them feel like I'm stepping out of my bounds?
Simple, tell them before you hire them what you expect from them regarding safety techniques. Establish the ground rules before the situation occurs.
If you tell me up front that I'm going to have to work with your saw that has a guard on it (I don't own a saw with a guard, so I'd have to work with yours) then I most likely wouldn't hire on with you for two basic reasons. 1) I don't work with other people's saws- I think that's dangerous. 2) I don't work with guards on my saw- I think that's dangerous.
You have every right to protect yourself and do whats best for you. You are the money man and you make the call. Since you're the money man, you ultimatly will be responsible if someone gets hurt.
blue
Easy solution - dont hire anybody, DIY ALL!
That said, literally have spent days in hospital and at other times over a hundred stitches learning stuff the hard way; however, at least 2 specific instances can be recalled where sight in one eye was saved by wearing (prescription) glasses.
Let grandkids bust rocks on an anvil and run bulldozer sitting on lap, but hearing protection and safety goggles are mandatory.
for me, safety is a matter of having all of my senses on full alert all the time. if i have glasses, gloves, and earmuffs on, my senses are on a bit of a delay and that is a recipe for danger, just as drinking or smoking while working would be. i am of the opinion that safety measures such as these are, in many cases, merely protection from the situations they cause. knowing how to use your tools like an extension of yourself and being aware at all times are the best safety precautions. i've done many things with power tools that would be considered "risky" by an onlooker, yet the only thing i have ever been injured by is a utility knife that i ripped my calf open with. the only safety measure that would have aided in avoiding that situation was being intelligent enough not to cut with my leg in the way of the blade path.
as has been said, make sure their papers are straight, and let them be. it's also unsafe to work agitated, and safety recommendations from a HO are sure to agitate. i don't go to my accountant's office and tell him he needs a brighter bulb because the low light situation is straining his eyes. i just make sure he's a cpa and let him do his job.
"the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. one should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise."- f. scott fitzgerald
I think this is an excellent question and one I've considered from a homeowner liability standpoint. I've learned to make it a practice to require they show me proof of insurance and won't allow work until I speak to the agent to make sure it's in effect and covers the work in question.
I did this recently and found the folks were only insured for general landscape "per the agent, anything below chest height." I hired them for bushes, but passed on tree work. I don't want anyone hurt or anyone suing me for doing what they are not qualified/insured to do for that reason. Your home is usually your biggest investment and your insurance can be canceled in a heartbeat.
I wish we had an attorney on here who could write up a "hold harmless" type contract. I had to do my own with the last job and think it would hold up, but you never know.
The one thing I did include was that the company/individuals confirmed adequate insurance was in effect at the time. They held themselves out as professionals in the field of work and were completely responsible for assuming all relevant safety measures. You can't necessarily tell people how to do their job, but you can require them to be insured, etc. (Be sure to check the insurance!).
Remember too, that folks working in your neighborhood will often knock on your door. Sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes you get a poor job and assume lots of liability. I guess my main message is I want to protect our assets, hire adequately insured professionals in their field, have a job well done - for a fair price, and for everyone to stay safe. Just check it out up front and you might be okay. If you provide tools and instructions, the contractor could be technically considered an employee. That applies to housekeepers as well. (Not that I have one - I wish!) Simple things should not be so tricky and I am overly cautious, so please consider that as well.
P.S. I would avoid hiring people wearing skirts for outside work! (LOL!) A pink skirt, panty hose, and workboots are a fashion don't. Plus, it's probably unsafe to boot, especially with ladders involved! What a mental picture that paints! I can now try to cleanse that picture or revel in the humour for days. What a dilemma!
at least you have the option of cleansing or reveling.
I'd have to get the image out of my head ASAP, or there might be serious mental damage.
The skirts are mostly OK. Good ventilation on those hot summer days, or so I'm told. Biggest down side is that it makes looking up at the help a traumatic experience. Stimulating, I suppose, if you go that way. Not that there is anything wrong with that.I draw the line a tutus. They are a major safety hazard. Makes climbing down a trick because you can't see where your planting your feet. Point slippers are also questionable. Sure they make the legs look long and shapely, always a good thing, but they make climbing a ladder a pain and they don't come in my size. Tiaras are fine but I still haven't found one with an impact or electrical rating. A shame because nothing brings out the gleam in the eye and brings together a work outfit like a really nice diamond tiara.
I just came across this thread and am caught up on the reading here.
it's late and I'm tired, so this may not come out as clear as it sits inn my mind but here's a startMaine has it's own unique culture. Lots of good work ethic as well as the independent stubborn attitude that you are fighting with. My advice haas a little legal and a little common sense in it.Maine recognizes a status called independent artisan contractor. This person qualifies himself to be an independent businessperson by using advertising, business stationary, keeping books, etc( similar to the IRS twenty rules) and carrying contractor's ;iability insurance. When qualified, he is not required by the state to carry workers comp insurance on himself and he is not allowed to hire other people to work for him. He is neither a general contractor not an employee. He is strictly an Artisan.In your contract with such a person, he should stipulate that independent self-emoployed status and include his ins certificate #. He should have language agreeing to hold you harmless and to be toitally responsible for his own work.You might have worked with someo old salts that qualify.But more than likely from your description and from what I know of the local labour situation, I think you are hiring "employees" That means you are totally responsible for withholding taxes (if they make more than $600 per annum) insurance, etc.Yeah, it's hard, but whatchagonna do? You save some paperwork and you take on some risk the way you are doing it. So form a company and payroll them or stay under the table and take your chances...but you can reduce the risk by letting these kids know up front that you will only hire them if they are aas interested in their safety and you are, and agree to follow your lead, or hit the road. You can do it nicely and sound like the patron saint of fingers and eyeballs for your compassion.
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that's a good point Piffen,
once megunticook starts directing HOW the work is to be done----he may find he has an employee on his hands in the Eye of the IRS
and---If his position is that he has hired an independent contractor----then he is gonna find an expensive problem on his hands if he thinks he can ignore the contract and toss a " contractor" off of a contracted job---because he as a homeowner doesn't like the way the contractor handles a circ. saw, or a nail gun, or his ladder placements.
Better read those contracts folks, LOL
See a clause there reading" All work to be completed in a workmanlike manner according to standard practices." ??????
when push comes to shove----the homeowner is NOT in a good position to determine " Workmanlike Manner" or " Standard Practices"---certainley not compared to the contractor who will be able to produce scores of" independent experts" detailing their similar "workmanlike manner" or "standard practices"
Ironically----I would suspect that Megunticooks' experience as a corporate safety officer might actually be a handicap in making his case. The methods he would have promoted as a corporate safety officer might have been THEORETICALLY desireable----but it's doubtfull they were " standard practices" in the mom and pop residential world----and in SOME cases might actually PREVENT "Workmanlike Manner" ( 90 degree roof jacks come immediately to mind)
This thread has certainley been food for thought though, LOL.
Best wishes---( and working much safer than casual observers might recognise",
Stephen
Thanks for the local perspective and for clarifying the "artisan" thing.The latest case I described (hiring a member of a framing crew who's essentially "moonlighting" with me for a few weekends) is a pretty casual arrangement, and the fellow I'm referring to is also an acquaintance of mine here in town. There's no formal agreement, and all told it's only going to add up to 20 hours or so. That's typically the case if I'm just hiring somebody to help out for a day or so.When building the house, though, I did contract with a builder to take care of the framing and bring in his subs for the electrical, plumbing, and drywall (I took it from there). In that case we did have a contract, of course, and I did ask for proof of insurance. This was a guy in his 40s who'd been at it a while, had an excellent rep., and did good work. In other words, a total pro. But neither him nor any of his crew ever once wore safety glasses, they all wedged open their saw guards, etc. As it turned out, nothing happened on the job. But I didn't really like seeing that and it made me wonder about what they were thinking (this fellow had cut off a thumb on a table saw a few years earlier but luckily had it reattached--didn't seem to make any impact on his work habits, which had me really puzzled.)I never said anything about safety to him. But the reason I started this thread is that I'm starting to question this approach and wondering if it would be better for me to bring up safety at the outset. I don't want to be like OSHA or anything, but on the other hand I don't want anybody hurt when working for me. From some of the responses on this thread it's clear a lot of guys would be insulted at that and tell me to go screw myself--in which case I'd just find somebody else who took safety as seriously as I do.I think Maine probably has more than its share of tradesmen who do things the way they've always done them and don't really want to be bothered wearing safety glasses or taking other basic precautions. But it's everywhere--I've worked for contractors out west and I saw a lot of things done like using their leg for a sawhorse, never using eye protection, etc.
Here's my short answer, and you're probably not gonna like it....
You get what you pay for.
Why are you hiring some guy's helper, and not the helper's boss/company? I'll make a bet that it has something to do with money, right? You could hire the job out on the up and up, but that'll cost more and they might not let you help, right?
So you roll the dice and hire a 'moonlighter'. Fair enough. You want to pay a cut rate, you get cut rate service and that probably means no insurance certificate. So the money you've saved is wagered against getting through the job without injury. But, IMO, you really still don't get to tell them how to work safely. In your words, it's a 'casual' relationship. Casual for who? You and your wallet? Or both of you? You can make suggestions for safety, but you really don't get to push the issue.
Or you could hire the job out on the up and up. Get a contractor and a certificate of insurance. How he works is really none of your business as long as the job is done to the agreed upon standards. Any unfortunate accidents that may happen are on his dime not yours. You've bought yourself out of the potential liability.
Now if you want the best of both worlds.... and you seem to, you can cover them on your own insurance policy, take them on as legitimate employees and tell 'em to do whatever the heck you want to.
Don't get me wrong... I'm sure you're paying a decent wage.... I'm not calling you cheap or anything. I'm just saying that by paying for wages only... you are getting labor only. You're getting exactly what you're paying for. You're not getting the benefit of insurance coverage or the benefit of dictating the working environment to the extent that you would like to.... because you're not paying for those things. They can be paid for two different ways... by hiring someone with insurance or by paying for the insurance yourself as an employer. Or you can roll the dice some more.
Not a lot of middle ground to be had.
Good points Diesel.With major projects where there's a lot at stake, like framing my house, excavating my road, putting in underground power, etc. I find the best people around, schedule way in advance, and pay whatever they ask without dickering. I've seen second-hand what happens when you try to hire the cheap guy or squeeze people, and it's totally self-defeating.On the other hand, this particular current project I used as just a recent example is a simple shed--I really just needed an extra set of hands to help raise the walls and get things done a little quicker. Didn't think it warranted hiring a full-on contractor as I wanted to take on the challenge of designing and building a structure from the ground up and learn some things first hand. In other words, when I do stuff myself it's more because I enjoy it than I want to save dough. To be honest, I'd be a lot better off financially if I just used the hours I put into these projects to put in more billable hours in my own business. But I get sick of sitting on my a-- in front of a computer all the time and I like to work with my hands.But the question still stands, how do you address safety concerns respectfully--either in a casual situation like this or in a more professional context where you're hiring a pro.By the way, this fellow I hired is a colleague on the local fire dept., just a few years out of high school, and eager to pick up a little extra money. He's also pretty smart and a good worker. But maybe you're right--maybe in that situation it's not my place to ask him to wear glasses. We're talking about a couple weekends basically. You think that's out of line on my part?
Edited 11/10/2005 7:31 pm ET by Megunticook
By the way, this fellow I hired is a colleague on the local fire dept., just a few years out of high school, and eager to pick up a little extra money. He's also pretty smart and a good worker. But maybe you're right--maybe in that situation it's not my place to ask him to wear glasses. We're talking about a couple weekends basically. You think that's out of line on my part?
I think this particular relationship might change the dynamic a bit given your familiarity with each other. "Out of line"? I don't k now if I'd call it that. I mean... how for would it go? If you said, "Hey guy.... I'd really feel a whole lot better if you threw these glasses on while you're working with me" to me, I'd throw them on just to keep the peace. I mean, regardless of how I felt, I don't think it would be worth an argument... or losing a day's pay over.
If that doesn't work, shoot him in the eye.
All right, I'm kidding, but it sure would get the point across, huh? FWIW, I constantly have to chase my guys to keep the glasses on. Part of the problem is me.... while I wear mine most of the time, I do slip. They are always on the top of my head and I've even been dumb enough to make a cut and get crap in my eye... with the glasses sitting right on top of my head. Pretty much every time I see them in the store, I buy a few pairs to encourage the guys to wear them. They get beat up so fast and once they're scratched it's even harder to get the guys to wear 'em. I also can't wear clear glasses because they give me a nasty headache in a matter of minutes.... so I wear the sunglasses kind which ends up being another reason why indoors my glasses can end up on my head instead of over my eyes.
Pinning the guard on a circular saw will get you sent home pronto. That's a big hair across my azz. I watched a guy bury a 7 1/4" blade into his thigh a few years back and I'll never forget it. None of my three current employees have ever worked around guys that pin the guards though, so that really never comes up any more.
> Remember too, that folks working in your neighborhood will often knock on your door. Sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes you get a poor job and assume lots of liability.
The very best contractors are the ones that you have to go looking for. They're booked months in advance, and you only find them by talking to satisfied customers.
The worst are the ones that come looking for you. Fancy full color flyers that talk about discounts with deadlines should be a red flag.
-- J.S.