Just finished a two story box gutter re-line job and had one downspout to install. The scaffold setup we used for the re-line was positioned poorly for installing the downspout, so we dropped the scaffolding and set a ladder up to install the downspout. Homeowner comes home and stops my guy because he’s not tied off. Homeowner is a commercial contruction company owner and recently had a fall related death on one of his jobs in another state.
I’d be glad to comply with this, but I don’t have a clue how. To attach a control point on the roof above would take more ladder climbing than installing the downspout. I know the demand is unreasonable, but he’s a good regular customer and a fine fellow to boot. He’s a little shaken and is over re-acting. Anybody got any tips?
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Haul the boom truck over there -- or wait till he's not home !!
Who am I to give advice on safety <G>
Haul the boom truck over there
Actually, it's on a job about 6-7 blocks away and we'll be done with it there in a day or two. That's what I'd already decided to do - just drive it over.
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Interesting Thread.
Your solution is ideal since you have the bucket truck or arial boom or whatever tool you have.
Cudo's for respecting his position since he is in a bad situ right now.
I had a kid drop 2 stories thru a hole right behind me about 15 years ago.
He ended up being ok after a helicopter ride that he'll never remember and 3 days in a coma but to loose someone would be horrible!
Overcaution is a good place to come from for him right now. That is probably all he thinks about.
I remember OSHA training about if the tie off is more challenging than the job then exception, but with a ladder you must have 3 attachment points at all times so how do you hold and fasten the downspout when you need 2 feet and 1 hand on the ladder while your other hand is free to work.
I think he is overreacting. Finish the job when he isn't home, sounds like a good plan to me.
Finish the job when he isn't home,
We already tried that and got caught. There's very few people I'd put up with this from, but he's one. He's truly shaken that one of his employees died. And it's not financial concern. He and his brother/partner are famous for caring about much more than the bottom line. His brother is vice-mayor. He ran against the current mayor and lost by a slim margin in a heated battle. The winner asked the loser to be his vice mayor and he accapted. Not something you see happen very often. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
No kidding about the boom truck. First-man-up anchor points are often a real PITA. If the anchor has to be on the roof then someone has to get there to install it, and a bosun's chair or some other use of a boom is the simplest way, if the boom can reach. There is a chimney at my place that is hard to access safely, and fortunately (?) I can throw a rope over the ridge to get at it, but I bet that's not an OSHA approved method. Next time I need up there I'm going to have a welder fab up a stainless chicken ladder and permanently install it on the roof.
Sometimes it take a lot more effort to reach the work area safely than it does to do the work. Can you rebuild the scaffold so as to reach the downspout safely? If so, I would do that and bill for it.
I don't think your client is necessarily over-reacting. Ladder falls are near the top of the list for construction injuries and/or deaths, IIRC.
I'm not sure if it was an OSHA reg or one the company I used to work for but their in house rules (not sure if they were teh OSHA rules or derived from the OSAH regs) had something about time in the area (amount of risk exposure) and made an excpetion if the setup time was actaully longer than the time to do the job. The jist being that the worked spent more time unprotected while installing the protection than if he were to just do the job he was to jus tdo the job without the harness. I've not looked at OSHA rules (ever) but that clause I worked under was eitehr condoned by OSHA or an official policy form their own regs.
found this interpretation at: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=22128 emphasis mine
Yeah, thanks, John. I knew what the OSHA ruling was. I did a search and couldn't find any sort of device for this situation to make this guy happy. We comply, lots more work likely comes our way. We don't, he might look elsewhere.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Might want to educate him on the fact that fall pro isn't required by OSHA on portable ladders.
I tried to find the ref for the exposure times but nada...
over re-acting .... how should he act about a death on his job ?
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Maybe over compensating would be a better description.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
didn't mean to sound like a smart a$$I have no solution since all I have ever done is tie off ,perhaps you could ask the guy if he has any roof anchors you could borrow ? maybe he'll come around.
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Not to mention that a harness has to have a 5000lb. anchor point to be OSHA approved.
Where would you find that on the side of the house without connecting to something bearing?
Maybe you could tie the ladder to the house somehow and anchor to it? It might be enough to satisfy his concerns.
Due to the recent state of the economy, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
At the risk of sounding stupid, since he's a construction company owner, maybe you could just ask him what would work best.
Hmm Since you have a boom truck use it
I have never used any safety harness when on a portable ladder but I do make sure to use other ladder safety. so unless the ladder itself falls I really take care to stay aware of my every move when any mistake could be costly.
I could never understand why you would fall off a ladder unless you decided to do something stupid like over reach or try to handle a task beyond your ability. Like trying to handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood on a windy day while climbing a ladder single handed. Or if you were careless about setting it up to begin with. You know there are jobs that you simply must assume some risk and with a proper assessment of that risk and a good understanding and experience in using your tools you just do it and make sure you don't make a mistake that could get you hurt.
I mean every table saw manual says never operate the saw with out the blade guard but we all know there are just common woodworking task you simply can not do with a standard blade guard on. And with experience on how to do it safely we do them all the time without cutting off fingers or sending a projectile off the blade. We know the dangers and how to avoid a mishap.
No one said construction work is without some dangers and a mistake can cost a life so be careful and never do anything that feels unsafe if it feels unsafe it probably is. But you know if OSHA had been around at the time, the Hover Dam would never have been completed. Of course there are tasks you just say hay this is way too risky so the budget will have to include the the equipment to do it safely. For me since I do not own a boom truck or man lift it would mean a expensive machine rental. Or maybe with proper ladder use it can be done carefully without mishap. And there are tasks I would do myself but would never let a employee I am responsible for do since I know they can be unsafe if your not extremely careful.
Throw a rope over the ridge to the ground on the opposite side.
Tie it off there to what ever will hold the OSHA load.
(Truck bumper?)
Have the ladderman harness up and climb
( just make sure he doesn't trip over the rope on his way up or down!).
dovetail nailed it for you.
The ladder needs the anchor point,then the man hooks his harness to the ladder. The second, ground man, holds the ladder for additinal safety. Both men wera hard hats.
Won't work in this situation. We're at the corner of a hip roof. Getting a tie-off point set is possible, but will require twice the ladder work puting the downspout up will.
I've also thought of using a ladder stabilizer to resist twisting and clipping off to the ladder.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Corner stabilizer
Got one, but it won't work in this situation, due to a porch and balustrade.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Tie the life line to the bottom rung, and loop it over the top rung. Slide the rope grab up as you go up. If you come off the ladder your weight is pulling down on the top rung. There ya hang.
"Both men wera hard hats."1st: Youa Italiano??2nd: ...and safety glasses and work gloves and respirators and steel toed shoes and Long pants and long sleeves and knee pads and hearing protection and sunscreen and Nomex jacket and lead lined underwear and elbow pads and shin guards and batting gloves and a cup and a chastity belt and a burkah.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
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according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Ya fergot the copy of yer living will.
Had one last week that was a real Duh moment.
I go up a ladder to the fifth step. the company requires that someone now has to hold the ladder because I'm over 4' high. My partner holds the ladder while I remove a ceiling tile and take a cover off a pull box. A supervisor stops us and send my ladder holder off to get his hard hat. I don't need on because I am not going above the ceiling.
After getting in compliance we are ready to make a circuit tie in and my partner goes to the basement to turn off breakers. I'm still up the ladder and on the phone with him as we go through identifying which wires go to which circuit. The supervisor that stopped him from holding the ladder w/o a hard hat is now holding the ladder for me.
Can you guess what she didn't have on?
I had to bite my lip to not say anything about her lack of compliance, and really fight the urge to drop a pair of Kliens right beside her.
Edited 6/16/2009 7:41 am ET by DaveRicheson
I found my chasity belt chaffs my nethers, and since honey buns used a steel lock I am a lightning hazard.
OSHA forgets about attaching tie offs as unless they are built into the original structure some one has to place them.
Tie off on a truck bumper? only if the ignition is disabled. I could see a Ytube video showing a flying tied off worker.
I am glad to hear that some one has a safety concern. I hate ladders I'm a wimp .
Could OSHA legislate wasps and horseflys from attacking people on ladders?
After my neighbor died from falling off his roof and I did first aid, I installed two anchors on my house and two on my shop. but you still have to crawl up to tie off!!!
HMMM OSHA approved burkas sounds like a business opportunity.
Can you guess what she didn't have on?
Underwear?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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You had to say it, didn't you?
That was a mental image I didn't want this morning!
A sweathog in a skirt with no undies!!!
nevertheless, the original picture you painted was as good as any scene in a sitcom
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At least she wasn't above you on the ladder. LOL'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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I love that story. She's what I call conveniently safe. As long as it's convenient for her she will be safe. Once it's not convenient then she's not safe.
I remember one time when I worked railroad contracting. A super from the office was out visiting crews on some sort of fact finding mission. He decided to give us a safety lecture at the truck on morning before we started our day.We were always up to snuff on our safety. Real dumb obvious stuff. Telling us about proper foot wear and all that. This is like at six in the morning in the middle of Wyoming.
We leave the the parking area and he proceeds to follow us. One of the guys I was working with who wasn't known to be that swift stops. Turns his flash light on the super and says. You can come to work with us when you go buy the right boots. You can't come on the Railroad in loafers. And get a hard hat and safety glasses while your in town." Then he shook his head and kept walking.
It was hilarious. He went to town and bought some gear too.
Posting without a net.
I had to go up in a ceiling yesterday to get to a j-box and add another circuit. Darn thing was drive pinned to the upper deck right between a run of duct and wire tray, and almost directly over a block wall. It took two hours to do a 20 minute job because I had to install an anchor point to hook my fall arrest gear to before I could climb on top the wall (had to go buy the anchor plate with the tie off loop thing on it).
What frost me is that we get a lot of lip bumping about our cost verses a contractors cost, yet the powers that be will convieniently leave the site so a contractor can break our safety rules to get a job done. If we stop a job a contractor is doing because they aren't in compliance we are "picking" on them.
Level playing field my butt!
OK - This issue has been resolved. We just did a box gutter re-line with copper as I mentioned and this is a downspout we added to make the system work better. All the existing downspouts are aluminum and in good shape. We were adding an aluminum downspout to match the rest. He likes the boom lift idea and decided to switch to copper downspouts "while we're at it".
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I could offer you the use of our sweathog with no undies.
Nobody would look if she went up the ladder.
Not even an OSHA inspector.
"and decided to switch to copper downspouts "while we're at it""That sounds like a great resolution - makes it worth while getting the machine over there!The thread has made for good conversation and thinking tho.
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