Hello everyone,
I’m renovating my kitchen and, in the process, took the decorative trim off of a ceiling beam and supporting post in the kitchen. It is a ‘T’ shaped structure, with the top of the ‘T’ stretching from one exterior wall to the other and supporting the ceiling joists. The post is in the middle of the kitchen (and extends down into the basement). The beam extends 10 feet on either side of the post.
I am a bit worried because the beam on one side of the post is sagging noticably. The other side looks fine. It is made of 2 2x4s nailed together, which seems kind of flimsy to me. The post is made of 2 2x6s nailed together.
A few other possibly relevant facts: The house was built in 1912, but has been renovated several times since then, so I’m not sure how old this beam is. the house used to be a 1 and a half story but was renovated to a 2-story 15 years ago.
I called in a house framer to have a look and he said that, to bring the house up to modern codes, I’d have to replace the beam and post with 10×10 of laminated lumber. He quoted $3000 dollars for this work. I’m working on a budget and hadn’t anticipated this expense. Also, I’m not sure that I want a huge beam going across my already somewhat low (just under 8 feet) ceilings.
I did a bit of reading and am considering temporarily jacking up the beam and then reinforcing it with long bars of steel screwed to the beam and also steel connector pieces where the beam meets the post and then covering the whole thing up again.
What do you think? What should I do? Part of me says, “This house has been standing for almost a century and hasn’t fallen down yet, so I can just leave it.” And another part of me says, “This is structural. Don’t take any shortcuts. Get the guy to bring it up to code.”
Help!
Kris
Replies
Ther's no way we can tell if the beam is O.K. or not unless we see the structure and what the beam is carrying.
But given that it's only 2X4s and is sagging, I'd say something needs to be done with it.
There are options that can be considered if headroom is a problem - Like recessing the beam into the floor system.
It may cost money now that you hadn't planned on spending. But how much MORE will it cost a few years down the road when the sag gets bad enough that you HAVE to fix it?
Thanks. I understand that you can't comment on the house structure without seeing it. I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for how serious this is. Some people have said to me that a lot of old houses have some sagging and no one worries about it. I asked the framing guy if he thought it should be changed and he said that he would if it was his house, which is a pretty indirect answer. He said that I might have problems with ceiling drywall cracking, but I am planning on putting up a wooden ceiling, so this is not a concern. I don't know what to think.
Kris
"...he said that he would if it was his house, which is a pretty indirect answer."
I don't find that indirect at all. Sounds to me like he's recommending that you fix it.
The house isn't really just the same is it's been since it's built, since a 2nd floor was added. There might have been additional load added to the beam when it was put in.
BTW - I knew a lady in Germany back in the 1980s names Kris. You don't mention which gender you are, but I've never seen a guy spell his name that way.
Just curious...
For two people in a marriage to live together day after day is unquestionably the one miracle the Vatican has overlooked. [Bill Cosby]
>> but I've never seen a guy spell his name that way.Kris Kristofferson
O.K., I've never MET a guy who spelled their name that way...
Pray for the success of atheism
>> O.K., I've never MET a guy who spelled their name that way...Kris Kringle.
he said that he would if it was his house
What he meant was, he wants you to pay him to replace the beam in your house. I don't think that he gave you an unbiased opinion. You might spend a few bucks to have an engineer or architect look at the situation, and propose a solution. The framer might know what the proper size beam is, and then again he might be over-building to CYA. An archy or engr who is not going to make money off the repair work would be a better resource.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You said yourself you had no idea how long this 2 x 4 "beam" has been in place. While I don`t doubt its original, there`s a good chance a previous owner didn`t like the "large beam running through his kitchen" and what you are stuck with is his solution.
I would consider recessing a properly sized beam up into the ceiling. You may be able to get rid of both the existing "beam" and the post. (Is the post sitting atop anything structural?)
Get a hold of an engineer....find out what size beam you need.....then speak to a contractor about the cost. Spending the extra money before you put in a brand new kitchen will be a hell of a lot more cost effective than having to do so down the line.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I removed about 13' of wall in an upper flat and replaced it with 2"x6" LVL with a steel plate sandwiched, with 1/2" through bolts. I went into the attic after and jumped on the area over the new beam (mid-span) while someone was below, looking at the deflection. It didn't move more than about 1/16" and I'm a horse. My ceiling in the upper is about 7'-9", and while the height (rather, not losing headroom) was a bit of an issue, it's still at the same level as the door openings (standard ht).
This would be a lot better as a means of support than what you have, but you still need to look at what it's supporting. If this is a load bearing wall, you really need to beef it up. If you sell the house and it falls on someone, you could be liable. It was hidden from you, so you may have a case against the previous owner if they covered the sagging beam.
There are different types of L.V.L. beams try a mini lamb 4x6 as stong as your 4x10.
> the house used to be a 1 and a half story but was renovated to a 2-story 15 years ago.
Was that work done with permits and a Certificate of Occupancy? Structural work isn't something that should be done one room at a time. Every load in the building has to be supported all the way down to the ground. The best way to go is to have an engineer look at the whole house. Tell us where this is, perhaps someone can recommend a local engineer.
-- J.S.
In general, improperly built structures don't "break", they sag. And they sag further and further intil the nails in the joints are pulled loose. That's when the beam will let loose.
And given your houses history, that is what is happening now -- the sagging is slowly pulling out the nails.
Fix it now, for somewhere near the amount quoted, or fix it later, probably for much more.
Should you worry? Yes.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
All of this is good advice. You need to have a structual engineer take a look.
If the beam is sagging there is probably some secondary loading as the weight of the second floor is transferred to other places. Failure could be slow and gradual or it could be "accelerated" by high winds, heavy snow load, etc. Not trying to scare you but paying for the expert is worht it.
Just make sure that whoever looks at it has the letters 'PE' behind his or her name.
I have no doubt that you need to worry until you get this properly replaced. Whether the 10x10(?) LVL is the right solution is beyond my ken from here, but you should definitely NOT ignore it.
The guys making suggestions about specific methods how, or with what, from the little info they have here are wasting their time and yours
wishful thinking will not hold your house together.
But it does not have to cost you three grand, though that is a fair figure from the pros POV. If you are doing all this other work yourself, and you are up for some heavy work, an engineer can give you options and solutions where the materials should cost only a grand or twelve hundred. It is knowing how, putting the knowledge to work, and absorbing the liabilities that makes up the rest of the cost. So if an engineer specs it, and if you have digital photography and patience, we can ehlp you learn how to insert that piece of wood.
Ooops - strike that last if Boss' instincts are correct and you are a tiny little gurl. This IS heavy work and will take helper(s)
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I say get another bid for the beam replacement and have it recessed as said above. Sorry, but a "beam" of 2x4s is a joke.
Find a structural engineer and get a plan for replacing that beam. Replacing a 2x4 beam with a 10x10 sounds like overkill, but only someone who is there and can do the calculations should be trusted to tell you what to do. It sounds like the framer is overengineering to cover his butt, which I don't blame him for. You want a more precisely engineered solution, ask someone who's qualified.
If I can be permitted to ask a related question of the pros: When you do a beam replacement like this, what do you do about a stud wall that's resting on the beam being replaced? Just to make it more fun, imagine there's no bottom plate under the stud wall, the studs just sit on the beam. Above those studs there's a 4x4 plate holding up the roof. And just to add to the fun, there's a shiplap joint in the top plate right over the center of the beam, which has started to fail I suspect because the beam is sagging. Can't see the sagging below, POs put in a suspended DW ceiling below the original plaster ceiling. I wonder why?
what about steel? It will probably not be as "deep" if you were going to try this yourself and did not want to recess the lvl into the ceiling.
I have put a few steel I or flange beams in on different jobs and they can be done with some mechanical advantage by one person - or rather easily with 2 people if you block it up correctly.
Frank
For the curious. Yup, I'm a woman, though not a "tiny little girl." Six feet tall, strong, and at ease with power tools.
Thanks everyone for all the advice. I have a friend of the family who is a structural engineer, so I'll give him a call -- see what he says. I'm thinking that I could, with some help from friends, replace the beam with LVL or steel.
I've discovered so many half-assed do-it-yourself jobs from the previous (longtime)owner of this house. It's frustrating. His approach was just to nail some cheap material up to cover up even more cheap material. Putting in new windows, I discovered 5 layers of old siding (every one a different material) under the vinyl siding. What fun!
Thanks again. You guys are great.
Kris
Oh, a few more things to add. When I bought the house, I found professional blueprints for the second story addition in a drawer, so I suppose it was done with permits, etc. But the company that designed it no longer exists. I called the builder who did the work (listed on the blueprint) and he is quite old and seems to have no memory of the job. It's a mystery.
Above the beam are the old ceiling joists, and above them (running perpendicular to the ceiling joists) are new joists supporting the second story. I suspect that the new joists are transferring the weight of the second story to the exterior walls, so the piddly little beam is thankfully not carrying all that weight.
Oh yeah, and the floor joists of the second floor are nice and level. I looked again and they've been shimmed to accomodate the sagging beam. In other words, the beam was this shape 15 years when the second-story was built. This could be good -- meaning that the beam is not moving. But it also seems strange. If the beam was sagging then, why wasn't it replaced?
And finally, I live in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. Anyone know any good engineers/contractors/house people up here?
Thanks again.
Kris
"Above the beam are the old ceiling joists, and above them (running perpendicular to the ceiling joists) are new joists supporting the second story."
This layout suggests that you could recess a new beam and not lose headroom.
"Oh yeah, and the floor joists of the second floor are nice and level. I looked again and they've been shimmed to accomodate the sagging beam."
This suggests that the existing beam may not be doing very much. It's pretty wimpy anyways. Perhaps the new one could span the whole thing with no post.
Women are certainly as welcome here as the guys. Fixing lousy DIY repairs is just part of the game. Hang around here adn you'll read plenty of other folks' stories about similar things.
Hippopotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia is the fear of long words.
Any chance of you posting some pixs. of what youare talking about? It might help to clear up some confusion.
> I have a friend of the family who is a structural engineer, so I'll give him a call....
> I've discovered so many half-assed do-it-yourself jobs from the previous (longtime)owner of this house.
Definitely have your engineer look over the whole structure, not just this beam problem. Why start by putting a band-aid on a finger if you also have a broken leg? It may be more cost effective if the engineer can re-route load paths elsewhere in the building.
-- J.S.