I am building a house on a city lot with a large oak tree that we definitely want to save. The foundation has been in for about a month and the house is framed. The house is about 18′ or 20′ from the trunk of the tree. The lot is not big enough to have put the house much farther away. The front of the house faces the tree and is about 22′ wide. When the footers were dug, no large roots were encountered. When the foundation was backfilled 4″ to 6″ of dirt was placed in front of the house to get the water to drain away from the house. This might cover 30% of the tree’s root system. Hindsight tells me that that may not have been a good idea… The backfill was placed with a track skidsteer and there was tree protection fence in place meaning that the machine didn’t compact the soil a lot (as with wheeled vehicles) and the machine didn’t drive any closer than about 13′ to the tree – yea, I know too close). My guess is that another at least another 20% of the root structure is under the city street – the street has been there for years and years – although maybe it was first paved 20 or 30 years ago.
The description of the tree is that it is an oak – my guess it’s a red oak – and has a trunk of about 30″ in diameter. It is a fairly picturesque tree in that it isn’t very tall – say maybe 40′ and maybe 50′ in diameter with a fairly symmetrical structure. I had a qualified tree guy cut off one large limb that was interfering with where the house needed to go. Probably removed 10% or less of the total tree.
Now the tree looks a bit wilted – I think. It was quite healthy looking before construction started. Is there anything I can do to help save it? What is worse is I still have to install a concrete driveway (2 strips of concrete) and the city is requiring me to install a city sidewalk, although the guy from the city who is overseeing the entire project (~12 homes) is going to help me to get some kind of variance to do something different with the sidewalk.
We have all kinds of expertise here – anyone an arborist? Having plenty of hindsight at this point. Need some foresight other than the grim…
Replies
not an arborist but some experience.
Set up soaker hoses under the enitre drip area to run for a few hours each day. If the back filled soil is poor you might try spread 10-10-10 ferilizer at a rate of 1lbs per inch of tree diamater.
Matt
Oaks do not take kindly to pruning during certain months of the year.. it will induce Oak wilt..
Second the vibration from the skid steer probably broke a lot of the smaller roots that carry water to the tree.. If the tap root was broken game over, get out the chain saw..
The burdon of over fill should be dealt with preferably by hand rather than with equipment.
Finally speak to either an arborist or your states forestry department about suitable supliments injected around the base of the tree in order to help it recover from the stresses thus far induced..
"Having plenty of hindsight at this point"
ya - well -
you can disturb about 10 to 20% of roots/top without much effect - you've done more than that - the limb removal was fine, the real problem is the assault on the roots - 13' isn't enough - and now you want/need to do more -
so - anything to do to give it a chance? frankly, by the time a mature tree exhibit symptoms, it's too late - but this is a significant enough specimen to do what you can - OK, no more driving under the drip line - remove the fill placed over 30% of the roots (absolutely guarenteed to kill a tree) - using a shovel, rake, and wheelbarrow would be appropriate pentence, keep the goddamn machines, tracked or otherwise, off it -
make sure it receives two 1" waterings a week, either rain or sprinkler - (remove the fill before you water over that area) - after you have the site as restored/tidy as possible, get 2 bags of Miller's soluble 20-20-20 fertilizer, mix 10 lbs in 100 gallons of water and apply the solution evenly under the drip line of the tree - two bags is enough for 5 applications 2 weeks apart - I'd probably make the first two applications one week apart -
do not cut anymore roots this year - sidewalk needs some alternative, perhaps someone here can suggest something that doesn't involve excavation -
you driveway needs to be postponed a year or two - can you get ahold of something like they used to build temporary airstrips with? expanded metal that lays on top the ground, spreads the load, and does not turn water - modern alternative is probably some plastic product -
sorry man - if you were going to save this tree, it had to be at the top of every list at every stage of planning/construction - maybe someone else here can learn a lesson -
"there's enough for everyone"
Edited 6/29/2008 9:30 am by DavidxDoud
I was advised to use a root auger as a way to get fertilizer into the soil and feed mature trees. Available at garden centers, this auger is about two feet long by inch and a half. It's easily driven into the soil by any corded electric drill. After drilling a large number of holes around the root area, each hole is filled with the appropriate fertilizer, then filled with water. The fertilizer then feeds the tree for a year or more.
Edited 6/29/2008 9:34 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Feeder roots for trees lie in the area between 6" and 12" below the surface. Using an auger is not necessary. Any feeding can be on top of the soil and watered in.
I've tried both methods on the same trees. The auger works better.
Matt,
Google the dirt doctor or Howard Garrett and get his sick tree treatment recipe.
Pete
All of what was said and the other thing is once it's in decline it is sending a message of dinner for the bugs.
The boars will attack it and it's over.
Get it on a spray schedule to try and help.Red oak is very easy to loose if it is, so check the leaf for further identification.
this is mostly a bump but...
Here is a little update and a few pics.
I'm trying to get the dirt away from the tree that was placed there.
Got a laborer from a labor pool to remove by hand the new dirt.... that didn't work out too well... In 7 hrs he probably removed 5 full wheelbarrows of dirt - actually about 20 wheelbarrows about 1/4 full... At that rate it was gonna take about 4 or 5 days....
Called a guy I know who works for a landscaper - Guadeloupe (sp?). He is working on it right now. He says he can get it mostly, if not all done in 5 hrs. After that I'll get my landscaper to come out and grade the other areas of the lot (again) so water won't sit around the tree.
Called the city arborist to come take a look. No return call as of yet. I'm paranoid the person is gonna come out and then decide I need to be fined....
The thing is that the city requires the right of way for all new construction homes to be graded at a 1/4" per foot (up-slope) coming up from the curb. The right of way is 9.5' wide (or close to it) but I guess this just isn't gonna happen. The dirt I had placed had brought the grade up about 4 to 6" which was only about 1/2 of what was needed to satisfy that city requirement...
Anyway, attached are a few pics of the tree. I forgot to get a close up that shows the wilting of the leaves...
I had location restrictions when building my house, but I wanted to save the tree in the photo below. The grading around the tree was changed a bit, and the excavator did ding the trunk a couple of times during construction.
When I put the patio in, I dug down, then poured a concrete footing around the perimeter of the patio, about 12" wide and 8" to 12" high.
On the subsoil inside the patio I set several runs of perforated 4" septic pipe, then filled with 8" to 12" of stondust, then dry set the 2" bluestone on top of that.
So the tree was abused.
Had a little scare the next couple of years, a little weakness at the crown, what I called a little crown die back. Then the tree took off. Still going strong, a built back in '95.
View Image
My tree is a red oak. In general, for red vs white oak...if the leaf fingers are pointed, it's a red oak, if the fingers are rounded, it's a white oak.
Edited to reduce size of picture.
Edited 7/5/2008 11:36 pm ET by Mongo
Yea - I got a red one in my front hard that I gave little reverence to. Grading, etc... Going strong after 9 yrs....
I had no idea a large oak could be that fragile... (on the current project)
It's amazing how many different kinds of Oaks there are. Again, I'll try and get some close-ups of the foliage and bark.
Edited 7/5/2008 9:41 pm ET by Matt
Here are a few more pics that I was hoping would show the wilting - didn't come out too good.... Still forgot to take a pic of the bark... I think you are right. Not a red oak - no pointed ends on leaves.... Or - looking at my Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Trees it could be a southern red oak...
$400 in labor and I've got the extra dirt from around the tree in maybe a 25' diameter circle. I feel like maybe I'm fighting a loosing battle though...
Edited 7/6/2008 2:01 pm ET by Matt
Forgot the pics...
matt... i don't get this one ...
View Image
where's the wilting ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That was just to show how much dirt we are removing - it's about 6" in that area - about the deepest.
I just don't see how I am going to be able to remove all the fill we added and still have the site drain properly and have the front walk and driveway work properly.
I have some large oaks on my property that I hope to preserve during construction. These are white oaks which I thought were pretty rugged as I have seen small "scrub oaks", as we call them, hanging off of road cuts where they have been for half a century or more. I was told that the Oregon white oaks are susceptible to damage if the soil over the roots is tamped down or if sufficient soil is added to block air from getting to the roots. I think additional soil can be added over the roots if it is sufficiently porous so that air can penetrate and create conditions similar to what existed prior to the soil being added. In my case, I won't be adding soil over the roots but I might cut some roots that extend outside the drip zone. The oak expert said that I might get a little bit of dying of the top of the oak tree but that they would recover from the proposed construction.There is a .pdf on protecting trees during construction at:
http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf/A3072.pdf
which mentions how to add soil over tree roots.
Thanks for the link to the article. It was informative. Maybe there is still home.... Maybe I'm just over-reacting...
Like I said in my first post though... I'm having 20-20 hindsight at this point...
Now you need to aerate the soil to allow water and air.
Green sand and compost etc.
Did you check out the sick tree treatment I posted you about?One other thing, the American elm tree that was in the blast area in Oklahoma City was practically shredded. They took care of it and we visited the museum there and the tree is doing well. They are actually getting trees started from the elm and they are for sell.Anyway, it is important to get the feet (roots at soil level) exposed. Many trees are transplanted to deep and will eventually have problems.Pete
Yes - I read the sick tree treatment...
It made reference to several things that I wasn't really sure about the availability of. For example - the compost... Sure I know what that is but I'm not sure the tree (or the project) can wait 6 months while I make some... Green sand? What's that? Lava sand? horticultural cornmeal ? dry molasses? Are these things available at the farm supply? There is a big one 15 miles or so from here...
Or do you think that the product shown at the bottom of the article will do it....
Edited 7/7/2008 6:35 am ET by Matt
Matt,
Dry molasses, green sand, cornmeal and liquid compost (concentrate)and other items is available at most garden centers and even some Home Depots and Lowes and many farm supplies.One poster mentioned Mycorrhizal Treatment. What this does is add microorganisms to your root structure. Compost does the same thing but doesn't cost much. If you can find some Mycorrhizal treatment, it would really kickstart the microorganisms. This is where the help is needed to get these little bitty roots that are important to the big old tree.Healthy soil will be the best thing. The sick tree treatment forgoes a bunch of chemicals that many people sell. By the way, sooner is better.Pete
Edited 7/7/2008 7:58 am ET by gotcha
You can buy bagged compost at HD or any garden center - likewise greensand & all the other ingredients.
Good luck to you and your tree!
>looking at my Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Trees it could be a southern red oak...<
I believe you are correct.
Have you added any water?
No - we have had a fair amount of rain lately.
Lot 13? You are in trouble. Call the Wicans. Do the tree chant, etc. (;-)
Yea.... I got this thing about the # 13.... and the address is 213... When I built the house for the DW and I the coffered ceiling had 13 squares. Each run of pickets on the screened porch had 13 pickets... I think there were others (9 yrs ago) - creeped me out. Thought I was hexed. All is good with the house though... Not yet sure about lot 13 yet though....
Edited 7/5/2008 9:28 pm ET by Matt
DW and I got married on Friday the 13th, Jan 1967.
Mulch it 4-6" with dark hardwood, fence it off from all foot traffic, water it one inch per week, My arborist says to put out an old tuna fish can and if it doesn't fill up with water by the end of the week to run a sprinkler 'til its full.
Don't over water, don't cut out any healthy limbs.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
You won't really know if the tree is gone until next year. Meanwhile, hiring a professional arborist would be the best approach.
If the tree is lost, red oak grows pretty fast. In about ten or twelve years, since it is in a good spot, you should be able to have a replacement that works from the perspective of shade and aesthetics.
Everywhere I have lived, and also where I worked, I tried to plant some trees in the right places. At the time, two or three bucks for a tree was a lot of money, and a trip into the woods to find a young tree to transplant was a lot of work. I knew I would not be there to see the results. I have fortunately had occasion over the years to go back to some of the places where I planted and found that it gave me as much pleasure to see the results as if I were still living there.
When I was young and planted the trees, twenty years seemed like a long time. Thirty years was almost impossible to understand. Now, forty years seems like a very short time to me. When I look back on my life and my choices, I find that I never regret having planted a tree or making something with my hands that was to the best of my ability.
I believe that there are many things that you cannot learn before you are fifty. As you get even older, there are more and more things that are understood. I am often surprised when I have a new understanding of something that was not even on the horizon of my awareness.
Trees provide a nice reference point that meshes well with our lives and helps us to understand our role in the universe.
Often, when I jog or bike past some of the older trees on Fort Leavenworth, I think of Grant and Eisenhower. I think that almost every Army officer has seen the same trees over time and appreciated their shade on a hot, humid Kansas summer day. I hate to see when one of them must be cut down.
These are the kinds of thoughts that trees bring to my mind.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on planting trees.I have a cabin at Lake Tahoe that my dad built in 1940. It's surrounded by hundred-year-old Jeffrey pines and has a couple of incense cedars that are about 100 feet tall and 10 feet around. My favorites though, are two smallish cedars that my parents told me were exactly as tall as I was when I was 2 years old. Now, 60 years later, they have trebled my height and yet they have used up scarcely a seventh of their expected lifespan while I have used up 6/7ths of mine. Not even my grandchildren to the tenth generation will see them fully grown.They give me perspective when I get to thinking too much of myself.
BruceT
Perspective is good.
One other thing for those who have planted trees and wonder how they are doing:
I recently used Google Earth to take a look at some of the places where I have lived. One of the first things I noticed was the trees that I had planted, and also the ones that were no longer there. I had also built a new kitchen as an addition to a house I owned in Florida in 1980. At that time I did not know about what a bad idea it is to let a roof slope into the wall of another part of the house. I never thought to build a large cricket until years later as I learned more about framing. When I Googled the house, I saw that subsequent owners had solved the problem correctly. It took a load off my mind.
Sounds like the root system is under stress, for about $40 you can give it a Mycorrhizal Treatment.
Care must now be taken NOT to over water!
Mycorrhizal Treatment...
I wonder if that is something they sell at a farm supply or maybe somewhere else?
I found this. Is that what you are fefering to?
Or how about this?
Edited 7/7/2008 6:25 am ET by Matt
When I used to work on the Tree farm we bought a lot of product from Tree help .com When I posted I could not recall their name. Good company, we never had any problems with them or their products!
A few more pics.
The extra soil has been removed as much as possible and yesterday I got part of the lot regraded to accommodate for the soil that was removed by hand.
Here is the rub: When I talked to my landscaper yesterday he said there is no way in he!! that placing that small amount of fill could have effected that tree that quickly. He said it takes at least a foot of fill and it takes at least 8 months or so to start effecting the tree. The fill was placed on 6/3/08. Granted he seemed a little defensive, but I made it clear to him that I wasn't trying to blame him - he still may have been in CYA mode though. He said he had been through this a number of times before, including on his own property where he had an area that had to have the grade raised, and the dye-back doesn't set in fully for 1 to 2 years. This guy does this stuff for a living - I tend to trust his word. He said there had to be another factor that was effecting this situation.
Still no call back from the city arborist - what a surprise.
The water and sewer still hasn't been run up to the house - that will cut more roots... At this point I wish I never had even gotten this lot with this tree. I'll call today about the Nature's Creation Mycorhizer/plant food.
I think I really need to get the arborist (an arborist) to look at it though.
Give this guya shout, he does this all over the Country and possibly has a connection with someone in yer neck o' the woods.
They can inject what is deemed needed and other hi-tech approaches.
http://www.dlarborist.com/#ggviewer-offsite-nav-10170360Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I am an arborist and a situation like yours it depends how much you want to spend. The easiest thing is to mulch with raw wood chips from a chipper as much as you can, there is no worry of nitrogen leaching or anything like that. Water is important too as mentioned. Using the auger is good as well it will help relieve any compaction introduced into the soil drill holes 2-3' centers, at minimum under the crown at 2x the crown if you are able.A better solution is to hire a company and have them vertical mulch with an airspade, availability of tree care companies that have this tool may be limited though. It fractures the soil sideways and down to help introduce porespace to the rootsAnother thing that would be great in addition to the things above, would be to use the chemical cambistat. I have personally seen it save trees, without a doubt. I must say I have no connection to the maker of the chemical. it is a registered chemical so you cannot get it.Arboristsite.com is a forum that has a homeowner helper section. Sign up and post the pictures and descriptions, they might add more.Good luck,
I don't think its too late at this point, but the sidewalk may create some issues. If the town has a town arborist, get him on board and he may be able to helpSteve
tip 'o the hat - thanks - horticulture is close, but not quite arborculture - tell me more about cambistat - "there's enough for everyone"
tell me more about cambistat -
If I remember right that product was used to slow down the growth of trees.Highway departments big user of cambistat.
Not a product to use on fruit, nut or sugar maples, as it lingers & think it has some of the same chemicals in it that they use to make anti-frezee, sweet but deadly.
cambistat is a growth regulator. It reduces tip growth while putting more growing energy towards root growth, which allows the tree to absorb more water and nutrients. The tree will look different next year. The leaves will be smaller, sthicker and darker green. It is not cheap stuff though, but it does last 3 years.Steve
Thanks much for your response...
I can maybe get the tree guy I regurally use to bring me a load of stuff from the chipper for free - or at the very least cheap - as much business as I've given him.
Do you think adding 6"+- of soil could have effected the tree in 3 to 4 weeks? I've gotten a large protion of the dirt off it but removing some is just not possible - without removing the house that i'm building. And, as I said before there is still more concrete to be installed. I have only met the home buyer once and talked to him on the phone once and he has already mentioned the tree...
I've called the city arborist 2x and am waiting for a return call.
I'm thinking that this may be a time not to DIY since I really don't know what the problem is. I'm looking in the yellow pages and there are about 8 arborists listed. Here is what came up for my city. This one look more promicing than some because they seem to focus more on preservation than cutting... (killing). I'll make a few calls today.
"Do you think adding 6"+- of soil could have effected the tree in 3 to 4 weeks?"'affected', yes - causing a general wilt, unlikely - usually damage from such activity will exhibit by decline in the top of the crown, and often decline will be more pronounced on the side of the tree where the fill is added - do not doubt, tho, that removal back to the original grade is necessary and appropriate - here's a link to 'Oak Wilt', of which I have limited knowledge - I hope that's not what you're dealing with - most resources mention a decline and leaf fall from the top down, what you describe is somewhat different - http://www.rainbowscivance.com/OakWilt/owd_FAQ_1.asphttp://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/400-499/nb479.htmearlier you mentioned something to the effect 'who would think the tree could be so fragile?' - answer: me and anyone else who works with them - your tree has been growing in its spot for 100 years or so, its knowledge and adaptation to its specific environment is absolute and complete, it works on it 24/7/365 - they can stand there and endure heat, drought, cold, wind, floods, and whatever nature throw at it - but its coping mechanisms for compaction and grade change are very limited and operate on time scales of years and decades and cares not a whit about your construction schedule - I'd suggest you give that most promising arborist a call, he might be able to help, but he's not a resurrectionist - and anyone else reading along here that might find themselves in a similar situation, make that call before you start the project - "there's enough for everyone"
The most promising company has a nice website with pretty much all the right information. As far as the soil piled up, its possible you may see results that quickly and you are doing what you can to reduce the effects of construction. Also the mulch/chips will help retain moisture as well. Steve
OK - here is the update:
after maybe 2.5 weeks the city arborist (actually called an Urban Forester) got back to me and, after looking at the tree said "yes it is worth saving". No comment.... :-)
While I was waiting for this great bit of information I used laborers to remove the dirt from directly around the tree and did some minor regrading of the lot (in the area away from the tree) to facilitate proper drainage. Cost about $600.
Then her boss came out and luckily I was there so we discussed the tree. She agreed that the tree looked stressed but looked at me kinda funny when I said that I thought that placing fill in the area was the reason. She said it takes a lot more fill than that to effect a tree. She said excavation is much worse than placing fill unless it is a foot or 2 of fill. She said it was more just the result of digging the foundation for the house. She said that big old trees can be fragile - "think of them as old people". She said the tree's main problem right now is lack of water, and that even though it has rained a fair amount lately it needs supplemental water. BTW - she said it is a southern red oak.
Anyway, this is what I've done in addition to removal of the fill: (all at the direct recommendation of the Urban Forester):
1) watered the tree weekly with soaker hoses.2) Applied a mycorrhizal treatment (actually I used 2). The UF said absolutely no fertilizer. "the last thing it needs now is nitrogen" is what she said but was OK with the mycorrhizal. To do the mycorrhizal treatment I used a rotary hammer to drill about 100 holes in the ground with a 1"x18" bit in the drip line zone. I've had those "bulb augers" before and they just aren't heavy duty enough to really drill a large number of holes in hard dirt with rocks and tree roots.3) mulched the area around the tree within the tree protection fence with triple shred mulch. She said triple shred because it would "get the tree what it needs ASAP".
When I installed the mulch I burred the soaker hoses in the mulch so I can water later and mess around with less hoses.
I can't necessarily say that the tree looks any better but it's only been a few weeks since I've started trying to rectify things. The UF said that she is adding the tree to a "monitor list" and that they would come once a year in the fall to remove dead limbs.
Right now I'm in the process of trying to get a variance from the city to install some kind of alternative sidewalk. Have to wait to find out about that, but all involved seem to think it is a good idea, but a better idea that was thrown out there was no sidewalk at all.... read less $$$... Normally, in those types of areas sidewalks are required on both sides of the street...