I’ve found a bunch of odd things since we bought the house a couple months ago. This ones a winner. I wondered why there were three face plates. Now I know.
It’s not clear in the photo, but the boxes are gangable and yet they are nailed through the ears to a cleats, top and bottom behind boxes. No clamps, no staples no wire nuts. The paneling has made in Japan 1964 stamped on the back. I guess the house hasn’t burned down yet. I know what I’ll be doing on the weekend.
Replies
It would be even scarier if you didn't recognize the problem.
Lots of people would look at that and say, "Problem? What problem?" At least you're going to do it right.
Good luck,
Scott.
please scott tell us what you see so that is so bad.
It's not just that no clamps were used, but it's scary to think that whoever did the wiring was unaware that metal boxes can be ganged.
He only had 3, single gang switch wall plates!
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
>>>please scott tell us what you see so that is so bad.Here's my list, others may find more.- boxes not ganged together properly
- doesn't look like the switch boxes are fastened to any framing members
- no bushings or connectors where conductors enter boxes
- splices held together with tape rather than approved wire nuts (technically solder and tape is still approved, but I doubt there is solder lurking under that tape).
- no pigtails
- in the case of the light fixture, it looks like the octagon box is surface mounted rather than flush with finished surface.Anything else?Scott.
> splices held together with tape rather than approved wire nutsThis work may have been done before wire nuts.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
>>>This work may have been done before wire nuts.Yes, but in that case wasn't solder required? I believe around here solder was required (but then again, I might be showing my "young" age, for a change. Holy moly, the word "young" is used very loosely with me...I've only ever known wire nuts.....)Scott.
I'm not sure whether solder was required or not.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Hi Dan,There were crimp connectors on the original house wiring from 1956. The attached shot is from when I replaced a dimmer switch. The dimmer said warranty expires MAR 1975. It was attached with the pink plastic crimp on cover. The red/black wire shows the crimp that's under the plastic cover, which needs to be cut off to see the crimp.The black connector is also a crimp on but more of a rubbery material with a separate plastic ring that hold the black cover in place. Those are original to the house.I wonder when wire nuts were first being used? Growing up, I knew them as Marrettes (trade name).
I don't know when wire nuts first became moderately popular -- I'm guessing the late 50s. The first ones were pretty crude -- just Bakelite with no internal metal.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Those were probably real Marr connectors, with the metal collar that set-screwed to the wires, which was then covered by a bakelite screw on housing.
Invented in 1914.
Not the ones I recall. But there were a lot of different styles over the years.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Dan,
I've seen porcelain wirenuts, unglazed inside (glazed outside) that I suspect date from 1900-1910. They're marked "medium simplex made in Holland Patented" and list the wire combination/gage usable (which is illegible).
Plastic wirenuts (bakelite) were used in the 1920s-1950s, based on what I've seen in the buildings I've worked on. This overlaps significantly with knob and tube, typically with wrapped/soldered/taped splices, used from day one of electric power to about WWII.
And then there's rag wire, or cotton/asphaultum sheathed non-metallic cable. First with rubber-insulated conductors (early 1900s to late 1940s), then with thermoplastic (nylon) insulation (1940s-early 1960s). The ragwire in the 1950s had an undersized equipment ground wire (16 gage in 12 gage cable, 18 gage for 14 gage cable). Lots of fun to work with.
Metallic raceway and metal-clad cable (BX, AC) is a whole 'nother thing.
These are educated guesses based on seeing a lot of old wiring in a lot of old buildings.
Cliff
Yeah, you're probably right about the porcelain wire nuts. I recall seeing those in light fixtures, but never anywhere else.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Just noticed the picture didn't attach. These are the crimp connectors I've seen in the house.
I'm with Mike. Where's the "scary" part? Could it be done better, sure? Will the house burn down tomorrow? Nope. Would everyone feel better if the boxs were mounted 10 feet apart using the same method?
who cares if the boxs aren't ganged, makes for ugly switch plates.
I see plenty of fastening and I've seen alot less.
no bushings .. really ... ever open an old wall?
splices ... so now you have xray vision.
no pigtails. Pigtails are required?
and surface mounted boxes start which fires exactly?
anything else? Yes. Your electrician license number to start along with where it's valid and what electrical and or construction work you do for a living. That would be a nice start. Get your head out of a book and into the real world.
>>>I'm with Mike. Where's the "scary" part? I didn't interpret Mike's question that way. I thought he was simply curious about code violations, and after all, the OP was wondering about what was wrong with the work that he found. I interpreted both posts as wanting to correct problems in the work, relative to the NEC.>>>who cares if the boxs aren't ganged, makes for ugly switch plates.OK.>>>I see plenty of fastening and I've seen alot less.OK.>>>no bushings .. really ... ever open an old wall?Yup.>>>splices ... so now you have xray vision.Nope.>>>no pigtails. Pigtails are required?Check the NEC and local amendments.>>>and surface mounted boxes start which fires exactly?I didn't suggest anything about fires.>>>Your electrician license number to start along with where it's valid and what electrical and or construction work you do for a living. That would be a nice start. Get your head out of a book and into the real world.I'm not an electrician (did I come across that way?), and I certainly don't intend to come across as someone with my head always in a book. I've done plenty of hands-on, practical, code-compliant, electrical work. All work has been inspected in my local jurisdiction. I don't think I need to pull my head out of anything. Perhaps you do?Scott.
Edited 10/24/2009 2:56 am by Scott
Everything was fine right up until he said:
'I don't think I need to pull my head out of anything. Perhaps you do?'.
Oh, the shame of response with an aggression.
seeyou invented shame.
Sorry, might have got a bit carried away there. I didn't like the tone of his response either.Scott.
ya, it's easy to do.
Now gunner, he keeps his up there. snork*
"anything else? Yes. Your electrician license number to start along with where it's valid and what electrical and or construction work you do for a living. That would be a nice start. Get your head out of a book and into the real world."
Are we really going to get into JLC style p*ssing matches where you have to "qualify" to post? Maybe we could all publish our resumes and then be ranked by the moderators. Calm down.
Right on.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
How ya doing with your plumber pals?
Have they thrown you out yet?
Joe H
Not yet, but I kinda lost interest in baiting them and drifted away.
Someone there did finally give me the proper English name for a lead toilet plug, which I'd been searching for for years, tho. One of the quirks of having learned a lot of the trades working here in Quebec is that altho I grew up speaking English, a lot of my technical vocabulary was acquired in French.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 10/26/2009 9:08 pm ET by Dinosaur
you would be surprised with what the old timers did and still do nowadays. I've seen wiring like that before and i'm guessing that house was wired back in the '50s. I'm not sure there was even an electrical code back then, and if there was, no one cared.
The house was built in '56 with no ground wires going anywhere but the kitchen, on the main floor. I put a GFI outlet in series with each of the other circuits feeding the main floor. The basement seems to have been finished by the home owner over the years. The materials, color of the floor tiles and dates on the back of the paneling make me think late 60's. I've found a lot of boxes with no clamps in the knockouts, up to 4 wires on one screw of a switch, ground wires not connected and a bunch of electrical tape. The lights in this room should be the last thing to correct.Adam
Edited 10/22/2009 8:52 pm ET by Muteability
At least you had boxes. Picture three wires coming togather inside a wall. Only three wire nuts holding them together.
Left them to show the inspector I could tell the difference when he came to check my new work. I passed.
Paul
Picture romex hanging down about a 18 inches from the basement ceiling, spanning a distance of 10-12 feet. Picture wire nuts holding a splice together in that span. Then picture ANOTHER similar splice about 3 feet away.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Actually, that's pretty good compared to some stuff I've seen.
The three switches are a classic. I've seen some pretty interesting stuff too, but I like the switches.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Just do a complete re-wire. Usually trying to fix stuff as you find it takes more time and money in the long run.
Good luck and work safe,
Cliff
Once I pull off the light fixtures in this room, I think I'll have had my nose in every box in the house. Ground wires have been added where accessible, without tearing out all the walls. This was the last space, as we've only been using it for storage up to now. At least all the wiring was copper.Adam
Once I took out the switch... Four hot wire to the top screw.Hot in, the other two switches and to an outlet. Should be all fixed tomorrow.
No clamps, no staples no wire nuts
I guess the house hasn't burned down yet.
Don't want to dissapoint you but the above would have nothing to do with the house burning down.
The only thing to be concerned about would be bare wires . all the coatings looked good to me.
Have to disagree with you there- No clamps means that those wires could chaff on the rough metal openings of those boxes causing some nice arcing and sparking...
What would cause the movement leading to the chafing?
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
I have seen people use the wires exposed in basements to act as shelves for stuff or even clothesline. We could play devils advocate on this all day, but the bottom line is the installation was substandard and crappy. Everyone flamed the poor guy who originally posted it quite unfairly I felt. Does this type of work exist commonly? sure. but that doesn't make it right. I really didn't see why the O.P was flamed for pointing out and fixing crappy substandard work.
Probably because he wasn't a pro. If he was, the reaction would have been different.
But the picture showed wires running all of two inches from one box to the next -- in a wall. I don't think anyone's going to be hanging anything on those.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
yeah,that is true, but I really didn't see why the poor O.P. was flamed so badly- they were legitimate mistakes that he pointed out- wires get stapled, clamped and properly connected in most cases. Are we flaming him because he was so amazed by it not being a pro in the trades?
>>>Are we flaming him because he was so amazed by it not being a pro in the trades?It wasn't the OP that got flamed; it was me, and I was just trying to help. Luckily I had picked up a set of asbestos underwear at Wally World this week. So far I am singe free. ;)Scott.
Edited 10/27/2009 10:36 pm by Scott
not that ya said that...
becareful out there...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
You still looking for a use for that old napalm?
Life is Good
That's Mr T and the napalm...
I like the plan "B" approach...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
yea, what he said.
I think you are being too picky- the pix 3 is obviously an earthquake region shock absorption mounting method- it prevents shock from harming the components.