So, I am still watching a project from early last year or the year before that, but Tommy showed Norm what a plumber did to get a 1.5-2″ pipe through a 4x beam. Instead of just notching it or boring a hole the plumber simply cut the beam into two, removing a 6-8″ segment of the beam. But this wasn’t what scared me in the episode. Heh
What scared me was the project house was also a MA pilot project for plastic source plumbing. Its black, but I am not sure it is PEX. Anyway, instead of using a tool to expand the inside diameter to accept a fitting (and in which the tube would contract to make a tight seal), they inserted a collar over the end, inserted the fitting, and with the collar pulled back to the end of the pipe used a tool to crimp everything together.
I’ve run a lot of quad-shield RG6 coax using the crimp-style method and hated it. In fact, I went back and refitted everything using compression fittings. I simply don’t trust crimping, and I’m especially scared of water-pressure scenarios of crimped fittings. Anyone else catch this episode on DIY?
Replies
Saw the show..saw the piping..do not like it..I do not trust any crimped connection. I want the assurance of a soldered joint..
I understand the concept of technology, progress, etc..but that IMO is another step towrds a disposable house..vinyl siding, vinyl windows, plastics everywhere..whatever happened to quality workmanship built to last the test of time??
One of the things they mentioned was that the plumber had already rough-fitted 2.5 baths, and it would have taken him a couple of days using copper. Steve also comments 'now everyone can be their own plumber' to the shagrin of the plumber in front of him.Soldering typically insures against DIYers, but crimp is more monkey-oriented, and I would have preferred them pilot-project PEX using the other method.
I'm sorry to say..but those shows are a detriment to our industry..Just like you pointed out "Now anybody can be a plumber"
It's crap like this that gives a HO just enough knowledge to be lethal to craftsmen...
And yes, maybe PEX is the next generation piping. But lets make it so that you have solid connections maybe say fuse-sealed together like the gas companies use..Something that requires a knowledge to install...
Not at all. Many of us make a good living fixing DIY work and other contractors' work.
DG/Builder
Forgot about that aspect...That's a good (profitable) way of looking at this issue..
Word of advise dgbldr, slow down, be calm, be helpfull, not contentious, please.
There are a lot of DIYs on this board that are definetely better plumbers than the bottom quartile (fer sure) of pro plumbers, probably no DIY plumbers that can match the work by some (like Cloud H, etc). Those 'some' in all fields, are all looked to for advice which is freely give.
I only posted this here as I did the previous polybutylene post, and took offense at your tone to Boss Hog in a structural thread. If you are a pro plumber, then the comments you made here certainly will apply to you when your DIY main house beam fails in tension <G?>
Looking forward to you trying to make 4Lorn look bad on a wiring question, he can at times be less nice than Boss Hog.
Yah, and bet he'd use some fairly descriptive phrasing in the process.
be another good read, too. heh heh
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Full moon. BTW, where's Roonster?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Junkhound, thanks for the advice. No. I'm not a plumber, pro or otherwise. I do hire pro plumbers when I need them. They share the view I expressed here. From what I read above, many here do also.
As far as DIY beams, no need to worry. Apparently you missed the part where I recommended structural engineers. I never build anything bigger than a shed without prints reviewed by a real engineer with PE credentials and one I know personally :)
I don't know who 4lorn is, but I would be happy to offer constructive advice on electrical matters when needed.
DG/Builder
Well Junkie ... sounds like we got us a bona fide jack-of-all trades here.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
And I thought I was the Jack-A@@ of all trades here! (G)
Thanks junk. DIYers are often a capable bunch, some are not. I think there is plenty of business to go around for the pros. Actually in this day and age of instant gratification fewer and fewer people mow their lawns let alone change a rubber washer in a faucet. DIYers are no threat. And many of us can sweat a joint in a copper pipe. It is not rocket science and intimidating to many, and most won't try. But to those who are used to "TRYING" it can be done.
Talk about scary this old mouse episode; ever see the one where numb nuts Bob starts banging on an old lead pipe and Richard went ape #### on him. Editors must have left it in for a laugh cause big R was pissed that the host was about to cause a leak in the wall.
Carl
as an aside ... to this and the other threads ...
screw the other guys!
Keep posting what ya think and know to be true.
Might be right ... might be wrong ... I'll decide for myself later after reading more.
That said ... just because someone like Hog is the only guy the logs on consistently who works in a truss factory ... don't make him "the" truss expert in my book.
I had to laugh at the last thread ... his uaual advice is to "consult an engineer" ...
unless someone reminds him he's not an engineer.
Boss knows plenty, that's for sure(truss wize and other) ... but no one is the end all/be all.
Not even me!
Carry on ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Well put, in a certain fashion.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's just all agree to Not get along!
but fight nice ...
more fun that way.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I love DIYer's. The last one I met added almost a grand to his bathroom job. He did the work twenty years before, leaks everywhere. I had to completely remove the floor and half of the exterior wall due to rot.
Come on everyone, give it a try. We got your back.
Lasted twenty years, ah? Most would have had it remodeled again before the leaks. LOL!
The enclosure walls were that fake tile looking masonite. No exageration, the caulk lines 3/8 to 1/2" wide. Every corner, seam and around the faucets. It was bad. When I got there I expected some floor repair. When I started to pull up the vinyl flooring, the entire subfloor (clear on through to the basement) came up.
The bath I just finished was supposed to be replace the peel and stick and toilet until they were ready for full gut. Toilet had about a 10 deg list and 20 deg rock. Started looking and the floor rot from before had been "repaired" by placing 5/8 ply over the rotted t&g subfloor (the rest was 3/4). The joist at the toilet was cut to about 3/8 at the toilet and all the way through at the shower drain. $9000 later we both were happy.
Toilet had about a 10 deg list and 20 deg rock. On my 5-year old new construction home one of the bathrooms has a toilet that lists like this. I always make sure not to use it on nights where I'm too drunk to maintain an upright position. lol
And this is one time I cannot blame it on the border-crossers, because the plumbers for the builder is a redneck-family owned company with no foreign (or latin) labor.
Just out of curiousity, did you buy your house before or after construction had completed?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
After. In fact, it had been sitting in a hidden development, which greatly hindered buyer's awareness of the place. I think this was a first-time development when a Columbus, GA bank created a subsidiary construction company to spur mortgage lending. There were only about 10 homes in the community, and we were the sixth resident. Wife and I desperate, with first-time eyes (think 20/2000 in hindsight).
Still, a lot of things should have been caught and handled but the attendent didn't do his job, and later was fired for it. I think the phase-2 homes are better built, but that says nothing for our personal experience. We have since chalked it up to a trial by fire history and will know what to look forward at in the future.
Still, there ain't much that can be discussed on FHB without me showing an example of the wrong way in my home. Haha
MSA1: Caulk? Some people have no idea that you are supposed to be careful with the stuff. To do a nice job and do it in one no touch pass is a skill. I am no pro, and I am slow but the results are great.
I have seen jobs like you mention. One guy put in a new vanity top and did not scribe it to the wall. Solutiion? You guessed it 1/2 inch of poorly applied caulk.
Nice, . . . real nice.
"understand the concept of technology, progress, etc..but that IMO is another step towrds a disposable house..vinyl siding, vinyl windows, plastics everywhere..whatever happened to quality workmanship built to last the test of time??"
Hmmm.
Wood rots, splits, checks...
Metal corrodes.
Plastics can be very durable.
In most cases, I bet the PEX will outlive the copper. In acidic water situations, the PEX will win every time. Crimp fittings work. How often do they leak? Take a poll and see if you can find any failures.
Then ask the same for copper. Bet you would find a gazillion. I have encountered many copper leaks despite 'real' plumbers doing the work.
Copper is a good material, but PEX is also a good material.
I am not questioning the superiority of one product to another. PEX may be superior to copper. This new stuff is better than that old stuff. I am sure if this forum existed 30-40 years ago, the same arguement would have occured between copper and galvy pipe.
What I am questioning is the perpetuation of the quick and easy "anyone can do this" methodology of home building. It goes against what this magazine and this forum is all about. Quality craftsmanship. If memory serves, I believe there was a thread with alot of upset posters when FHB had a house with vinyl siding on its cover.
Previous posters are correct in that there are fully capable DIYers. And this is an excellent forum for them to expand the knowledge of their interests. And yes there are incompetent trade professionals as well. The problem is there is not enough of one and far too many of the other. You all know which is which. Far too many people just throwing a bunch of material together and calling it a house. Which is what the subject of this thread is furthering. Plumbing made easy...
In short, let's develop all of the start-of-the-art material we can. But then let's market it to people who know what to do with it and perpetuate Fine Home Building.
The problem is there is not enough of one and far too many of the other. You all know which is which. Far too many people just throwing a bunch of material together and calling it a house. Which is what the subject of this thread is furthering. Plumbing made easy...
I am sure you will agree that this isn't mutually exclusive to the plumbing industry. I'm betting a good FHB DIYer probably could have built a better home than the one that my builder has done. I blame the business management on the builder, and the [lack of] quality in construction on his former site-manager. Both lacked in the business department and in the basic applied skills to create a winning job.
While I have stated before that my subdivision was off the beaten path, this is by no means the only development around. Both developments with homes ranging from 50% to 300% of what the homes in my subdivision were with a mile or so, and they sold. While the questionable skills and abilitys are called into question, I also take some blame for not having the experience in discerning those lacking skills and quality of construction.
But I will say that if one observes in a land where a builder (e.g. GC) has to have no cridentials, pass no qualifying exams, etc. and the land has unqualified or lazy inspection people then its a making for bad condition, and its all about the once-bitten, twice-shy sales game. These builders are not looking for someone we might call a repeat buyer, lol. In fact, they are more than happy to see you take a loss, bad mouth them, and move on.
So, while there are ever increasing mthods for expediting a chore in a particular trade, it should be deemed as skirting the quality of the work. This thread wasn't about how potentially dangerous the new system was being installed, but simply the crimping vs. compression for fittings within the residential plumbing environment, and the idea of pilot-testing on a TOH project.
"What I am questioning is the perpetuation of the quick and easy "anyone can do this" methodology of home building. It goes against what this magazine and this forum is all about. Quality craftsmanship."
Easy does not imply less quality. Many things in building have become less labor intensive, less skill intensive, and thus less expensive and more accessible to the non-professional wanting to contribute their own labor.
This is not a bad thing. It frees up labor and capital so that it can be expended elsewhere.
Since we are talking about plumbing: What is happening is that the value added by the plumber is not in low value 'assembly line' tasks like pipe joints, but high value things like design expertise. A higher percentage of the project cost can be devoted to things of higher value. Same with other productivity technologies from nail guns to skilsaws, to sawsalls, to laser levels.
Let's take hydronics, since that is a subject on which I know a couple of things.
Most anyone with a bit of direction can layout PEX tubing for a radiant panel. This is now low skill labor. The design, layout, and controls are the key to a successful system, and where the pro can add real value. This is a good development. Less labor and capital is expended on low-skill tasks, bringing the net cost of radiant heating systems within reach of more people. Higher quality features thus become accessible to more people. Fine Homebuilding for the masses.
Another example: Some plumbers may have the special skills to pack an oakum joint with lead, and heave heavy CI drainpipes up into impossible chases. Better still if these labor intensive tasks are no longer needed at all (except in Chicago).
Also a big disliker of crimps for leak free fittings (OK, maybe magneform like used on some military and aircraft stuff, but equipment and protability way past homebulding for now)
In the 1970's invested quite a bit (for me then) in a company called (edit not Inmont, they made paint, it was WITCO) as IIRC, they made polybutylene pipe. Crimped fittings. One of the biggest disasters to ever hit the plumbing industry.
Edited 1/11/2006 6:25 pm ET by junkhound
I missed that episode.
But back in the mid 90's one of my plumbers who always had to do it differently than I told him.
Drilled 4 1" holes in a square pattern then cut out the wood with a sawzall.
Pipe was 4,3/8" OD
Floor joist was 2x10
He cut right in the center of 4 joist, 3 feet from the wall that I told him to run the pipes down that we would connect in the wall NOT in the floor joist.
Cost me a case of Seagrams VO to talk the gc into making the front of the closet a load bearing wall, to be able to support the floor instead of the 2x3 which my plumber made out of the 2x10's
The problem is this ...
Since the material used in the 'pipe' doesn't naturally want to contract around the fitting, the collar and its crimped condition is being asked to bite into the material, and bite hard enough to force the material tightly around the fitting's neck.
Metal fatigue and Murphy's Law says that crimp will yield in time, but how lone is that? This isn't a rubber-pipe so the concept of malleable material causes caution to come to mind. The other method I've seen uses mechanical force to deform the pipe against the material's will, but then allowed to contract on its on for a ever-tight condition. No metal collar for fatigue to come to question.
I'm not an metalurgist but I think metal has to be flexing to suffer fatigue. At the relatively low pressures water comes into the house I don't think the pipes flex. If they do than so would copper. In fact 1/2 copper pipe (both L and M) are thinner than annealed crimp rings. I'm waiting to hear about a pex crimp fitting failing. I have seen soldered joints pushed apart by freezing. I ended up replacing all the galv steel pipe (built to last!) in my old house with copper. My neighbor, a retired plumber, says that proper joints are threaded. I guess times change.As for DIY vs GC and trades people. I am cleaning up after licenced professionals in my new home fixing wiring problems (loose wires in outlets, etc) goofey plumbing, the worst drywall work I've ever seen. The insulation in the attic has huge gaps. All pro work. If a DIYer is on this site they are probably serious about doing it right. Thats why I come here. Ted
"If a DIYer is on this site they are probably serious about doing it right."
I think you are dead on. Sure some DIY come here knowing near nothing about what they plan to do, but then that is why they are here! To get information and to learn to do it right.
Some of the things they plan to do can be learned in minutes, some things could require numerous visits here and several books to be read. But most things can be learned by anyone who is of the temperment to pay attention to detail, and perhpas a few other temperments. Then there are those things that are more of an artform. In those cases teh DIYer really needs to know himself well. Is he that much of a detail man? I am sure this is a problem for many and one reason several pros on this board are a bit tough on DIYers. But really it is only the DIYer who can know if he is arty enough to get satisfactory results the first time out.
There's nothing in particular wrong with crimping as a means of connecting fittings to hose or tubing. Crimping is used to manufacture 3,000 psig hydraulic hoses and even 10,000 psig gas hoses. Not a hand-held 2-jaw crimper or a pair of pliers mind you! These are circumferential hydraulic ram crimpers with at least six jaws. But the vibration, heat, environmental and shock loading on a hydraulic hose makes 100 psig residential water service look like childsplay in comparison.
Compression fittings are also extremely useful. Properly designed and installed compression fittings will remain in place even if the tubing is over-pressured until it bursts. But compression fittings are at least as vulnerable to mis-installation by people who lack the knowledge and skill to do the job right (or people who don't bother to read the manufacturer's installation instructions and follow them). In my personal experience, plumbers are not immune to that tendency. And some designs of compression fittings are garbage from the get-go and have a high leakage potential even IF they are installed per the manufacturer's instructions.
Nothing designed by people is idiot-proof- the best we can hope for is idiot-resistant. Any method used badly may leak at some point in the future.
If you use the manufacturer's tooling and fittings, crimped PEX fittings like the Kitec stuff are more than adequate for the duty they're designed for. Interchanging fittings, crimp rings and tooling should be avoided.
Personally, I'd rather fix a badly done PEX job than a badly-done soldered copper job- there'd be far fewer joints buried under finished surfaces to worry about.
On the underlying topic of respect: as a DIYer constructing my own home, I come here humbly with curiosity and an interest to learn from people who do the various aspects of this work for a living. I greatly value practical experience. I'm not afraid to ask questions- that's how I learn. I have learned an enormous amount here and am indebted to many of the regular posters for their help. Where I can contribute, I try my best to do so. Most people here are extremely patient and tolerant of DIYers even when they display their ignorance and I am grateful for that courtesy when I find myself in that boat. But by no means should you assume that someone who doesn't do a particular aspect of homebuilding for a living is by definition incompetent, or vice versa - many people here have proven that assumption wrong.
But you are talking industrial application and industrial manufacturing. I'm talking about consumer-oriented. I wonder if the application is limited by water pressure entering the home. Its a lot lower than industrial application so I suppose the performance of the crimp can be proportionally less, too.
I still would rather see PEX used to contract around the fitting. If a crimp-collar was used behind that then terrific. I'm just not too impressed with consumer-based crimping. I can see HD/Lowes selling these things and hanging from a rope will be tear-off liability disclaimers.
If course, as someone pointed out this could be looked upon as a positive thing to professionals. If they use, it reduces time while not reducing fees charged to the homeowners or builder, while getting the chance to repair many DIY mistakes. Sounds like a win-win situation.
Please don't get me wrong. I am all about DIY, but I really dislike the "let's make it monkey-proof" and then see it at the big box in terrible form.
Industrial manufacturing? Here you can have 3000 psig hydraulic hoses cut and crimped for you "while you wait" at Princess Auto (Canada's answer to Harbor Freight etc.). They've got a little Finn Power crimper set up in each store. It's a pretty basic job once somebody shows you how.
Are there junky fitting systems marketed for the DIY market? Sure. Both compression AND crimp-style garbage is available. Yep, the big boxes push cheap, because it allows them greater margins and market share.
What sucks worst is that good methods and materials can get a bad rep because they're improperly used by people who don't even bother to read much less follow the manufacturer's directions. That tends to take away good options from the rest of us.
The mere presence of the circumferential "memory" (shrink) ring on the Wirsbo type fitting assembly isn't enough to make that fitting system idiot-proof. If you don't rotate the expander tool between stages of expansion, you can impress an axial groove in the ID of the tubing which can lead to leakage later. True, the ridiculously steep pricetag for the expander tooling is a deterrent that keeps most DIYs away from using it, but you can STILL make leaking joints using that fitting system if you don't follow the manufacturer's instructions when you do the expansion.
When in doubt, RTFM! (read the f*ing manual!)
Good post!
A wise man does not let others know just how smart he is right away, fools seem to do that quite well though.
Nuke,
There is also a new press-fit pex connector that my plumber showed me called shark bite. You simply shove the pex into a connector and it is set, no tool required at all. There is also a version where you can remove a clip and pull the pex back out and then reset it again. He wanted to use one of these inside a wall after my trim guy put a nail through the washer line. While I am all for new technology, this made me nervous, especially inside a wall so I had him rerun the entire line.
http://www.cashacme.com/sharkbite.html
(edited to add link)
Dennis
Edited 1/12/2006 11:44 am ET by djj
Re-usable? Ok, now I've heard everything.
after my trim guy put a nail through the washer line.
Dennis, lets be a little careful accusing the trim guy of any misdoings! Coulda been the HVAC guy that did that, you don't have any proof do you?
Doug
Dennis, lets be a little careful accusing the trim guy of any misdoings! Coulda been the HVAC guy that did that, you don't have any proof do you?
OK, it was probably my trim guys half blind half wit helper, since he ran most of the base. Besides if HVAC Sam had did it, the water line have been sawed in half with his POS ryobi sawsall not skewered with a Passload finish nail... :)
With crimp pex fittings about the only method used by every plumber in my old town of 30k people, and never seeing or hearing of a leaky pex fitting, I've come to think they work pretty well. The crimpers we used have a calibration gauge and are fitting and tubing specific so no-name parts shouldn't be interchanged for reliability.
A crimp fitting must be used with common sense, just as soldering a copper pipe with the new solder, or twisting on a threaded fitting. I've actually seen far more solder joint leaks, new and existing, and am the most leary of unskilled people with torches.
With billions being spent on diy home improvement, there must be some good coming of it or the trend would go away. The quick and easy information available today is probably what makes diy workable, and the easy of finding good information isn't going away anytime soon--just look at this site.
Good plumbing to all,
Don
Idaho and all.
Ok pex is fast and costs less, but if you were to build a home for yourself, expected to live in it for fifty years and then give it to your kids would you use copper?
Bottom line on quality, is copper better? Forget cost, in this hypothetical question.
I'm a journeyman plumber. I would use Pex.
Ok pex is fast and costs less, but if you were to build a home for yourself, expected to live in it for fifty years and then give it to your kids would you use copper?
Bottom line on quality, is copper better? Forget cost, in this hypothetical question.
Pex will outlive the rest of the house.
My kids would bennefit more if the extra money saved using pex is invested for those 50 years.
Today if a relative left you a house would you rather have PEX and a load of cash or copper?
If $1000 was saved in the plumbing of a house today, compounded at 15% (aproximate average rate of return in the stock market for long term investments) for 50 years that would amount to over $900,000.
On second thought, with $900k in his wallet, my son would dump his ugly wife, buy a red sports car, develop a drug habit, have two strippers move in with him, and end up in a couple of 12 step programs once the cash is gone.
Better stick with copper...for the sake of the kids.
Don
If you can average 15 % in the market after taxes, go for the copper. YOu would be so filthy rich by the time you were having this copper vs pex discussion as to make a grand insignificant! LOL!
And you did notice that I said "Forget cost, in this hypothetical question"?
The issue is that I am planning on building and doing most of the work myself. I can do copper or learn a new trade. So which is better, as money would be insignificant. ON the other hand, build will be enough of a challenge without having to learn another new trade. But if PEX were superior in performance . . .
Has anyone mentioned the normal lack of 90 deg fittings using PEX? I would think that would help flow somewhat.
The show illustrated two methods for meeting a 90º change in direction for a tight location: copper segments and brass joints. Of course, unless the cavity the change in direction is occurring isn't tight then Pex should be able to handle it, but I have no personal experience.
Its not about using Pex vs. Copper as a material, or even a cost of material, but rather cost in labor. Compare a 1/2 day of labor to 2 days of labor for a plumber. If that plumber is only making $30/hour then the labor cost-savings would be substantial ($480). And this was for only a fraction of the house for the project the thread got started on.
Actually I was talking about not having to use the fittings (a plus), not the availability. But I am not sure you are allowed to "bury" a connection other than a glued (solvent welded plastic or soldered copper) in a wall. I believe you are not supposed to put compression fittings in an unaccessible location.
Only asking the question, not stating policy/code/best practice, etc.
Well, its being allowed in MA since TOH did it, and a bunch of it, in sealed walls.
Are you talking about the pipe or fittings? Most people I know ( and I do not know that many) that use it make the connections where they can be reached after things are closed up, maybe they are just too conservative.