I’m getting REALLY burned out with messing with scheduling. Seems like everybody is on my case about getting things done, and there’s no end to it.
People act like someone’s going to die if they don’t get their trusses when they want them. Like we’re building trusses for everybody BUT them or something.
The demand is really high, and we’ve had no rain during the week for something like 6 weeks. So there’s nothing to slow the framers down.
Today I was so tired of it I wanted to tell one particularly obnoxious customer to kiss my white a$$ and take his business elsewhere. I’m tired of the whining.
.
So do the rest of you guys deal with this too? Or all your customers reasonable, and it’s just mine that are jerks?
I probably already know the answer. Just venting a bit…
Q: What’s the greatest thing about having a woman for President?
A: We wouldn’t have to pay her as much.
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I say this with tongue in cheek ;-)
You'd get those trusses done if you spent less time in the "Tavern"
"You'd get those trusses done if you spent less time in the Tavern"
Gotta be one smart-a$$in every crowd........(-:
Actually, the design stuff is less than half the problem now. The production is more of a bottleneck. The plant is workingtwo 12 hour shifts (24 hours a day) and we aren't even close to keeping up with the demand.
One of the jobs that is really hot was supposed to ship last week. The guy wants to st it tomorrow morning, and we haven't even started on it. We're pulling trusses off the presses, loading them right on the trucks and shipping them out.
A lot of the customers are really understanding. But a lot of them are jerks too.
I don't mind someone gettign mad at me when I screw up. But none of this is within my control, and people still bitch at me about it.
Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but don't point to their crotch when they ask where the bathroom is?
There are two things that are fueling the demand.
The first is obvious, construction is on a roll.
Second, trusses are popular.
Right now, somwhere else on this board, someone started a discussion about what to do when the client says "can ya come down on price". When mty boss hears that, the first thing that gets suggested is stick-built roof to trusses. We just had one of those changes. Last minute. I'm surprised he got them on time.
you may want to try telling your people to order them earlier, or saying, "Gee, that roof looks sort of complicated, it can't be done with trusses."
"One of the jobs that is really hot was supposed to ship last week. The guy wants to st it tomorrow morning, and we haven't even started on it."
Oh yeah ... sounds like the guy is a total ahole ... what with wanting his stuff a week later than promised!
the nerve!
I'm lost ... is it his fault you haven't even started it yet ... or his fault for wanting them tomorrow ... or his fault for beliving they were to ship last week?
Remind me to never order from your company, sounds like nothing but problems.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"is it his fault you haven't even started it yet ... or his fault for wanting them tomorrow"
It's mostly his fault, and a little bit ours. I didn't really explain the situation 100%.
He ordered the trusses a long time ago. His framer told me when he would be there, and what day he wanted the roof trusses delivered.
Then one day he decided to fire that framer, and move the schedule up a week or so. I told him I would move it up as long as I could get it designed and turned in on time.
Turned out the foundation wasn't square, and he wanted me to measure the house after the subfloor was on. So he kept getting pushed back in the schedule day by day. He was supposed to call me when the subfloor was on so I could meet with him and measure it.
Eventually I got curious and stopped by the jobsite to see if he had worked on it yet, as he had never called. When I went by all the walls were standing and he was ready for trusses. He wanted them delivered the next day.
The day I measured it was one of the days I had off when we were working on our sewer. I measured it at 6am, before the plumber got to my house. After the plumber left at 4pm, I went in and worked until 9pm trying to get his layout and engineering done so I could get it turned in.
He couldn't understand why we couldn't kick his stuff out immediately, even though he had jerked us around quite a bit. And he just happened to catch us when we had a major equipment failure that kept us from getting them any sooner. We told him whe revised delivery date after I turned the order in, and we stuck to it.
So I feel like I bent over backwards to help the jerk, and all I get is crap from him.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.
Hi Boss.......you said "turned out the foundation wasn't square" with some of the more complicated roof's you do, what adjustment's can you make? How many times have you drop trusses on a job when they were scheduled and found the sub-floor wasn't even on?
Generally it's up to the framer to square it up. I'll let 'em know what I've found, and ask them what they want to do about it. Some of them let the plates hang over a bit on one end. Others pull the plates back in a bit. Others split the difference. The worst job I ever measured was an ICF job up near Petersburg. (I think) The front of the house was 14" wider than the back. The builder ended up building porches in several places, squaring them up, and spanning the trusses from porch beam to porch beam. .We often get into problems where trusses don't fit for one reason or another after they're delivered. And what we do varies a great deal depending on the situation. If the trusses are too long you generally have more options than if they're too short. .I once lost a truss job on a DIY project. The foundation was 2 3/4" narrower on one end than it was on the other. The HO wanted me to tell him how to fix it. When I refused, he bought the trusses slsewhere. (And I wasn't at all sorry)
The size of the federal budget is not an appropriate barometer of social conscience or charitable concern. [Ronald Reagan]
Having been a Production Manager for 15+ years, I know the problem well. You hit the nail on the head when you said you have a bottle neck in your company. You just need to figure out were/ what it is. Often, it's either a process bottle neck (Only one machine for all the products) or a labor shortage (people calling out sick etc.) or lastly a material problem (not enough lumber on hand). Once you establish what the bottleneck(s) are, then you can start implimenting corrective action. For instance, if there is a labor shortage, get some temporary workers to help out. If it's a process issue with a machine, make sure that machine works EVERY available minute (stagger peoples breaks so the machine works through breaks) and finally, if the issue is material, make sure you keep enough on hand, and check that your bills of material reflect what you are actually consuming. Good Luck man.
So buckwheat what you just wrote about sounds like some of what's in Theory of Constraints management practice. Have you read or studied The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement?
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Yes, I've read it. Awesome concepts. After posting my reply, I saw your replys, which I some how missed. Sounds like Boss Hog has the same problem thousands of workers have; "Management" that is ineffective. I think he needs to find other employment.
All true, but you left out a very important factor....managers who don't, for whatever reason, give acheivable dates to customers, and then pressure production (where they probably have had their benefits cut, etc.,etc.,) to get it done....
sometimes, the faster you go, the behinder you get!
well that's completely different!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The thing to remember when scheduling is, you control the schedule. "Rush" jobs kill a schedule. Once you open the door with changing your schedule, you are bringing it all on yourself. Just be honest about lead times, and stick to them. If the job is done early, the customer should consider themselves lucky.
It's not your fault they waited so long to order their trusses. They should be more realistic with lead times, and pass that on to their customers.
A couple of notes here.First - I have no control over scheduling either production or delivery. I just get caught in the middle when the crap hits the fan. I just process orders and answer the phone. I have a handful of old customers I deal with. But I'm not a salesman. Telling people to order earlier isn't going to help when you're completely overwhelmed. All the customers who are ordering stuff are existing accounts. It's not like we're out beating the bushes for new work, or slipping new customers in front of old ones. I hung up on an abusive customer once who was screaming at me, and got in a bunch of trouble for it. So I've never done it again.I tell customers the truth 98% of the time. (It's not always practical) But sometimes the truth gets you in loads of trouble. The boss/owner has one story, and the truth may be another one. Tell the customer what you REALLY think, and it has a way of getting back to the owner/boss. It's happened to me more than once.I try to NOT take it all personally. But it's hard to do when it happens several times a day, week after week, and month after month. And it's hard to NOT take the frustration home with you. I was kind of expecting some of you would share experiences of similar situations where people were pushing hard for stuff. But none of you have. Maybe y'all just work for people who are more organized than the company I work for...(-:
STRESSED is just DESSERTS spelled backward.
Maybe y'all just work for people who are more organized than the company I work for...
I work for myself. Only one to blame and no passing the buck. Organised? enough to keep the job on schedule.
The ones that press are the next jobs on that list of mine (?) they think they're on.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 6/21/2005 10:24 pm ET by calvin
Boss, Great thread.
I know, the world is busy. The boom is still going strong here in B.C. Scheduling is crazy.
All I do is install cabinets , and in the past couple months I have installed on un-sanded drywall four times. Do you really want dw dust in your Blum Tandems?
Come on people, think about it. Cabinets and carpets should be the last things installed. We do not all have to finish at the same time.
Unrealistic deadlines suck.
People who don't do what they say they're gonna do, when they say they're gonna do it, suck worse.
>> Come on people, think about it. Cabinets and carpets should be the last things installed. << Not to be rude, but everyone wants the job to revolve around their part of it. So, what about the trim that has to be run up to the cabinets - base and shoe mold? You gonna install that (including on he walls)? OK, good, you gonna paint/stain it too? So, you are gonna make all your cuts outside - OH - that's right, since the landscaping is done, you have to clean up the sawdust even outside... Oh yea - the painter wants to be the last one - and have the power washing done already - but won't be responsible for getting mud on the concrete. I could go on and on. Scheduling a house build is difficult at best unless all the stars are aligned and no supplier or subcontractor is late...
And you are right - everything doesn't have to be done all at once, but let's say there are 20 material deliveries and 20 subs for a house build. Now, each sub/supplier is only 2 days late "because something came up or, I'm slammed..." - bummer - 3 months just got added to the build schedule... No problem, the future homeowner doesn't mind living in a motel for 3 months...
Here is a better idea... I won't schedule anyone until the previous step is completed... Oh yea - everyone is slammed and 3 weeks out - no problem - just added 6 months to the build schedule... Homeowner won't mind! What - no homeowner yet? No problem - I don't mind paying an extra few months of interest on a 6 digit loan! Matt
Curious conundrum you're in Boss. You don't make the commitments [that can't be kept] but you get nailed when they're missed. Beautiful.
I recommend calling the competition and listening for a new job. If they're interested, talk to everybody from the receptionist to the drivers to the guy who fixes the plate presses. If company B seems like they're up front with folks, and fair and honest - and they offer you a job you can 1) take it or 2) use it as leverage to improve your current situation.
Speak to the current boss honestly about the problems. If they don't want to work proactively to change the way salesmen write checks they cannot cash - yet it becomes your fault - then you need to walk. Some bosses just don't get it, and they deserve to be educated.
Good luck man!
"We didn't plan to fail, but we failed to plan"
Well I find this an interesting topic (probably because my other job/career is a production management/scheduling consultant albeit with an aerospace job shop).
Boss a couple of questions for you. In your company who actually handles the scheduling?
"I just process orders and answer the phone. I have a handful of old customers I deal with. But I'm not a salesman."
And just what is it you do? I always thought it the design and/or engineering. Or are you doing the takeoff and measurements? Regardless just where is it you, and what you do, fit into the whole chain?
"Telling people to order earlier isn't going to help when you're completely overwhelmed."
No customers ordering earlier (or customers cheating and padding the order with additional lead time) isn't going to help and there are even studies and simulations out there that demonstrate that that kind of behavior messing with the supply chain can and will make things even worse. (I'm sure you find some humor in that one of the simulations of just that kind of supply chain problem is known as The Beer Game. It was first developed at MIT and is well illustrated and explained in Peter Senges book called The Fifth Discipline.)
"I tell customers the truth 98% of the time. (It's not always practical) But sometimes the truth gets you in loads of trouble. The boss/owner has one story, and the truth may be another one. Tell the customer what you REALLY think, and it has a way of getting back to the owner/boss. It's happened to me more than once."
When or under what circumstances is the the truth not practical?
"I try to NOT take it all personally."
Well you really shouldn't take it personally because it not personal. The problems and the resulting complaint you're encountering are systemic, not personal.
"I was kind of expecting some of you would share experiences of similar situations where people were pushing hard for stuff. But none of you have."
Well I actually have lot of related and similar experiences and I been working on compiling them into a book. I was actually working on throwing so of the stuff I been working on out into the forums here and on JLC again this summer to see what people think nowadays. Unfortunately in the building and remodeling industry there is a real dearth of education, training, and even empirical understanding when it comes production (and/or project) management.
Ya know as far as handling the demands of clients unfortunately the advice I would give you is something you may not want to hear (and this is not to single you out at all since this advice applies to 99% of the businesses in the building and remodeling industry) but you need to develop a better production system. We have and it been working although the journey has been and will continue to be a long one. Despite what everyone will tell you about this industry or there company being different there are real production management solutions that will work to improve a company's flow and throughput.
So I guess the last question I would have is have you ever heard anyone at your plant ever talk about implementing or learning about:
Theory of Constraints Management
Drum-Buffer-Rope or Synchronous Flow Production
0r Lean Thinking which is a name for the management method that is often referred to as the Toyota Production System
Does anyone there use terms like Value Stream,
Flow and Pull?
I think I've probably mentioned this before but I think you should really read (or listen to) The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement by Eliyahu M. Goldratt,and get yourself interested in the Theory of Constraints or Lean Thinking : Banish Waste and Create Wealth in Your Corporation by James P. Womack. Once you've learned enough about it to talk articulate how you think it might apply to your company's operations you suggest it to your boss or bosses and if they make the move to learn and apply TOC and Lean you can then become something of a hero having suggested it. Or at least benefit from people no longer bitching and complaining to you when they don't get what they want when they want it!
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Dang, you ask a lot of questions. (-:
"In your company who actually handles the scheduling?"
Two people at the main office. And the owner oversees them. One is friend of the owners, and has his nose firmly stuck up the owner's butt. The other one is a complete dingbat what a rather low IQ.
Scheduling is done based on favoritism and which way the wind is blowing at any particular time of day. There's no rhyme or reason to it.
"And just what is it you do? I always thought it the design and/or engineering. Or are you doing the takeoff and measurements?"
I mainly do truss design. But over the years, I've gained a small following of customers that I have a good relationship with. So I play salesman a little bit also.
"When or under what circumstances is the the truth not practical?"
Sometimes it comes down to where you have to choose between doing one job or the other when you can't get both done. Often that means doing a job for a long-term customer and pushing off someone else.
So what are you supposed to tell the one who gets pushed off? "Your business just isn't as important as someone else's, so we decided to make you wait".
In situations like those, I tend to make excuses. Like "We're really busy, and are a bit behind". That's at least PARTLY the truth.
"Well you really shouldn't take it personally because it not personal."
That's easy to say, but some of it *IS* personal. In a small town, I bump into some of these people frequently. I've known many of them for decades. I try hard to take care of them, and most of them know it. So when things don't go well, things can get strained.
Even the ones I DON'T know well bother me. Maybe I'm just not good at letting it all go when I leave work.
"Does anyone there use terms like Value Stream, Flow and Pull?"
I'd venture to guess that none of them don't read anything more challenging than a newspaper. So the answer is a rather large "NO".
This is crisis management, not a business we're trying to run here. We don't have time to try to actually make things work better.
Disney World: A people trap operated by a mouse
Boss Hog - Dang, you ask a lot of questions. (-:
I asked the questions in case you were really interested in doing something about it. Understanding where you fit into your company's Value Stream was me looking for just what your perspective was and to see what would be a good place to start looking for answers. There are some real world solutions to the problems you're experiencing if you're ever interested. That's what I consult on. As for looking for others to commiserate with, I'm sorry, but I never been very good at being a party to that. In the networks of people I work with I'm known to say "do you just want to talk and vent about it or do you actually want to work on understanding the problem and do something about it?" I really do enjoy working with people who have problems on their hands and more often than not the bigger the mess the better, but I've never be one to hang around long for people who just want company to commiserate with.
"I mainly do truss design. But over the years, I've gained a small following of customers that I have a good relationship with. So I play salesman a little bit also."
I'm getting a picture that your saying nothing is going to change at your company so when you get those customers giving you grief why not just put them on hold and transfer their calls to the guys you don't like who are doing the scheduling.
"This is crisis management, not a business we're trying to run here.
Unfortunatly that true with many or even most businesses They are always in crisis management mode (actually I really want to say crisis mis-management mode)
We don't have time to try to actually make things work better."
That's the same old played out lame BS excuse I always hear. My standard response to it is the old cliche "if you don't have the time to do it right where are you going to find the time to do it twice?" Your company probalbly has tons of time only right now in your company that time is taken up with what the refer to in Lean Thinking as "Muda".
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Everything you say is basically true. But the owners of the company are VERY set in their way, and have no interest in changing. They get pretty huffy when you question their way of thinking. I've tried to make suggestions but have gotten nowhere. The owner once even got up and stormed out of my office when I suggested we tighten up quality control. Unfortunately, transferring calls to someone else isn't an option - They're all in the main office, 70 miles away. And many of the customers who are complaining are people I've built up a certain level of trust with. I don't see pawning them off on someone else as a way to build and maintain that trust. I understand the principals you're talking about. I've read Steven Covey, Deming, and even know what "Muda" means. But I'm not in a position to apply those principals to other people. So I either live with it or walk. And I'm not in a position to be able to walk away right now. So if you can't stand to commiserate with someone Complaining about things they can't change, we're probably wasting your time. (-:BTW - When I said "We don't have time to try to actually make things work better" I was being cynical. That's the official company position, not mine. Like you, I would rather address problems than ignore them.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in his shoes.
That way, when you criticize him, you are a mile away from him and you have his shoes.
Boss Hog - "So if you can't stand to commiserate with someone Complaining about things they can't change, we're probably wasting your time. (-: "
I think what I was getting at there was there are always plenty of people around for commiseration so I just hand off or outsource that kind of work. Hey even this topic has developed as predominately "I feel your pain" posts so there is always enough of that to go around.
"I understand the principals you're talking about. I've read Steven Covey, Deming, and even know what "Muda" means."
Deming is like the father of all the good stuff that can save so many businesses and it's Demming who has said essentially that 95% of the time it ain't the worker, it's the system that doesn't doesn't work which is why I was saying you shouldn't take things personally. The problem you're experiencing is systemic. (Deming used to say that 95% of the problems are in the system, not with evil and/or lazy people)
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Boss I had to laugh a little at your pain....sorry.
Myself, I would just tell the truth. If the boss didn't like me telling the truth, I'd tell him to find another designer: I came here looking and I'll leave here looking. I'd never allow myself to get trapped in the middle of a pile of bs.
Get your boss the book "First Break All The Rules". It sounds like he needs some retraining.
blue
'I was kind of expecting some of you would share experiences of similar situations where people were pushing hard for stuff. But none of you have.'
What do you want us all to do, ruin our beer crying into it? Of course I commiserate, but I'd rather forget as much as possible. Compared to you, I've little to forget. Award yourself a Superhero - you have to be for all you're going thru.
Just remember "Peter's Panecea" - take the juice of 2 bottles of whisky and add a squeeze of lemon...cheers
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
"What do you want us all to do, ruin our beer crying into it?"
You've hung around here long enough to know that lots of people do just that from time to time.
The HOs complain about GCs. And the GCs complain about the HOs. Drywallers complain about the framers, etc.
I think there's some value in that. Everybody gets to see stuff from other perspectives.
And some of it is just venting frustration, as I was doing.
Just the omission of Jane Austen's books alone would make a fairly good library out of a library that hadn't a book in it. [Mark Twain]
You're right, BH, I am aware of the need to vent and rant. It was a touch of sarcastic 'poor me' on my part - "look, this guy's reminding me of the real world, I just wanna swap jokes, talk about sports, the truck, ANYTHING but real life". Heck, if you can't blow off steam to your buddies, then I'm a sad SOB to stand in your way. If I came across as a killjoy (killmoan??) then I'm sorry, that's the problem with having no inflections on the page. You've got a really tough situation there, one I wouldn't want, and you deserve all the positive input you can get....cheers
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
Boss, I've been victimized many tiimes by builders that tell me that the trusses are going to be there, then they're not. It hits me hard in the pocketbook.
My only request is for honesty. Just tell me when the trusses will be there, then get them there at that time.
I wouldn't tolerate any abuse from clients demanding trusses faster than is humanly possible. When the obnoxious ones start their whining, just hang up. When they call back screaming, tell them your cell is breaking up, then hang up again. When they call back calmly, then continue the conversation.
I don't know why anyone thinks they have to let abusive people beat them down. I'm not a taker and I wouldn't take that from anyone. Stand firm with the facts and no one can find fault with you.
blue
Well,
We are using the time to weed out unorganized builders. We had one last week that called on Tuesday for a Fri pick up. No problem. Then Thursday morning....need it right away. G
otrdun.
Friday...you know whats coming....need it out. RIGHT AWAY!!!!!
That was the last job we will do for that super. If you are always bailing them out there is no incentive for them to change. We'll work for the organized builders.
Boss ya know I've always treated my subs and suppliers with enough respect to "request" something when I need it, and then make sure I'm not rushing them. I know my truss man takes 7-10 days turn around, so I come to him yesterday and say "Can you have these on site next Monday?" He says, for sure next Tuesday, but maybe Monday. That's fine with me.
I've never asked my subs or suppliers to come down on their price, and I've never asked them to get to anything any faster than what their current schedule allows. Like another poster said, once you let one job or person break the schedule, you open yourself up to every other a-hole.
AT least in your case, that's three more hours per shift of playin on the computer!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
There's nothing you can do but be honest with delivery time. When I saw trusses on the menu, my first call was to the supplier (in my case the local yard) to get cost and production schedule. I requested realistic honesty on the latter and for the most part the package came as expected. If someone knows your lead time and then starts to peck away at it, take blues suggestion.
What's that sign..........."bad planning on your part doesn't........on my part".
Best of luck in weathering this storm. Good for your area you're busy.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I like Blue am on the other side of this thing. This winter I was enjoying trusses 1.5 weeks from request to delivery (not including design time which is usually 2 to 3 weeks). Now, it's 3 weeks from request to delivery. No prob, I just gotta get my orders in early, and I may be dismayed if I'm told 15 working days but that's OK - but I'd really appreciate it to be 15, and no more than a day or so extra.
Now, let me share some of my pain.... OK, so I'm building a house... at the last minute customer decides she want's a prewire for a security system. Sheetrock is to be delivered in 2 days and insulation is tomorrow. Boss (no - not you) says to handle it. OK, so I call the security company (actualy a division of the electrician). They say, they are busy but can be there in 4 working days - first thing - which is a Friday. I say no problem. So, I reschedule the insulator, insulation inspection, sheetrock delivery, sheetrock guy, and trim delivery and trim carpenter. Friday comes and goes - no security prewire - no phone call. So, I wait until Monday afternoon and call them - tell them I need it now - they can't be there for another 2 days. So, I reschedule everything again. 2 days go by - no security guys show up. At this point I fingure these guys can ki$$ my pink butt! So I let the insulation, insulation iinspection and sheetrock delivery go. Guys show up just as the sheetrock truck pulls up. So they get to dig through the insulation to install their wires and move their stuff out of the way for the sheetrock delivery guys. I'm sure they were pi$$ed - but like I said - if they didn't like it, they can kiss it!
So, one item, like maybe a late truss dellivery can throw off a whole chain of events. Like maybe siding, plumber, HVAC and electrician. And I'm not sure how it's effecting the framer's payroll... but I am sure it makes me look bad. Like I said, when I am given a date, I may be a bit dismayed if it is far off in the future, but that's OK and I'm gonna write it on my calendar, and probably not in pencil...
Just how long should one have wait for a needed/REQUIRED service?
The engineering firm I use has had my drawings and specs for the next addition project for over 3 months, knowing that I'd be ready to apply for the permit in mid June.
The rep made a site visit 2 months ago to verify my measurements and get a visual on the project.
To date, even after several promises to get right on it, they have yet to put a sheet of paper on the drawing board.
Without those stamped drawings I'm dead in the water. Unless I want to make an illegal start.
Talk about screwing up a long term schedule.
When you are just a deckhand and the captain is promising the moon, all you can do is bend over.....
Well stated JR!
blue
At one point in my 40 years of construction I decided I would schedule like some of the doctors I was working for - even if it was 3 months out I would give people a time and date when they called..... a GREAT way to go nuts. I was working late to try to stay on schedule, getting irritated with people who just wanted some more work done, etc.
Then I met up with an old guy, "Don't you know - you don't tell the next one you're coming until you get this one done?"
I have been scheduling like that for years now. I found I don't like to work for the "rushers" anyway - they tend to be pains. I'd rather work for "planners".
I'm not presenting this as representing "security" in any sense, but we do have a year lined up right now, and we are doing a job that has waited over 6 months.