My framer is finishing up and getting ready to go off to another job. I pointed out to him that there is still some fireblocking to be done, and there are not enough nailers for the sheetrock. He is telling me that this is not in the scope of framing, it is the GC’s responsibility to handle this type of stuff, and it is too time consuming for him to do as part of our contract, which simply is for “framing according to plans provided”. Is this part of the framers role or not — is it fair to expect him to do this as part of his framing contract?
Thanks — I’m new to this GC stuff and don’t want to be unreasonable in my requests.
Replies
As a framer... fireblocking and nailers are surely my responsibility
As a GC....I would expect the same from someone framing for me.
Areas like exterior trim work can get finicky and need to be spelled out in contracts. These are time consuming expensive things. Fireblocking and nailers can be done by the lowest guy on my totem pole in a reasonable amount of time on most any frame. In fact they are probably the least expensive/time consuming parts of most frames.
What did the specs and contract between you say?
It's the framer's job.
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Yeah, that is the framers job. You haven't paid him yet, have you?
Framer, unless specifically exempted in the contract.
SamT
framer unless it was not included IN WRITING
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Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Mimi,
Nailers for sheetrock and fire blocking is always done by the framer. Is this a house or an addition? Was he the cheapest price? Do you owe him any money? If so don't pay him until he finishes. Never heard of a framer saying that nailers for sheetrock and fire blocks are not part of the scope of work before.
When the stairs come, who sets them and if walls have to be framed under them, who frames those?
These sheetrock nailers that are missing, are they missing on the inside corners of walls, the ceilings?
Did they put partition blocking in?
Joe Carola
Joe and all,
Thanks for your replies. Its an addition, and yes, we still owe him some money. I'ms sure he'll come back but only if we push him, so I wanted to feel confident that it was right to do so. He was the cheapest, but came well recommended. He miscaculated/underestimated the job and knows it, so he doesn't want to spend much more time here. I'm trying to be a little sympathetic because of that, but we do need to get through the inspection! He set the stair already and framed a closet around it, but no other walls, etc. beneath it. There are some nailers, but many are missing in corners, and at the ceilings.
Pardon my ignorance, what do you mean by partition blocking?
I'm concerned about this job, we found a couple of fairly major errors which we had to point out and he did correct, but it makes me wonder what else I'm missing. I asked the inspector to do a pre-inspection, but they won't do that. A couple of other builders looked at the job and pointed out the missing fireblocking/nailers, but otherwise thinks the major things are taken care of and it's ok.
In the past I used a wonderful framer whos work was always praised by code officials and didn't need a word of direction. Unfortunately he moved away.
Taught me to greatly appreciate the good ones when you find them.
If it can't pass inspection and the rock can't be hung, he isn't finished yet.
"Gee, Mr. Framer, I can't spare to time to write you a check because I am too busy doing your work for you right now. As soon as I know how much timer I have invested in this, I can accurately deduct the back charges and find time to write your check."
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Brutal!
But entirely fair and justified.
Fair brutal and final..
if that's waht you want then so be it..
He did say that the framer underbid and lost money on the deal..
I'd take a good look around and see how many other framers there are available.
If there are plenty, go ahead and burn the bridge.. if they are all busy and scheduled then I would be a little more accomidating.
The differance between the real world and the letter of the contract..
Fact is that I am known for going the extra mile.
But that is with guys who work WITH me and don't try to shaft me. had he said, "Look here Piff, I am a bit short here 'cause I shafted myself on the bid and didn't realize you wanted this and that too, we'd have a wonderful agreement, but for a guy who is going to just leave it undone and announce that I am stuck with doing his work, possibly screwing up the scedule - I have no patience with jerks like that. Don't need to see him back on the next job.
You aren't telling us that you pay for work that is left half assed undone are you?
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I agree. Don't pay until the fireblocking is in. We use clips for our sheetrock corners, but how long could that take.
I would probably give the guy a little extra over the contract if I knew he was taking a hit, but only after the job was completely done and done well. I am not too interested in working with a whiner who can finish what he started.
As a remodeler, not a framing sub, I have underbid jobs. I consider these situations to be valuable lessons, and well worth the money. My wife was the only one to know about it. The homeowner or GC didn't know about it from me. I didn't complain, but instead did a 110% job and got the recommendation. As a GC, I would never (and believe me, I've heard my share of sob stories) pay a penny over the contract amount without a change order.
If the framer gave an ESTIMATE, not a bid, that is another dicussion.
Edited 5/24/2004 12:39 am ET by JSCONST
Edited 5/24/2004 12:45 am ET by JSCONST
Edited 5/29/2004 12:53 am ET by JSCONST
So how do you treat payment when your sub has "estimated" but not "bid" the job?
Bob
On a remodeling job, part of the job might be bid and some estimated. I let the homeowner know what is included in the contract and what is figured in the estimate. I tell them that the final price of what the estimate includes may be more or less. I don't hold the sub to that price, either. Usually a sub will estimate costs when the job is very small or when there are a lot of variables (plumbing/electrical hidden in walls, excavating near a stone foundation, etc.).
JS
I don't think that you should pay more than the quoted amount. But I have.
I didn't do it based on a sob story but on my observation of a young contractor working his butt off trying to do the job right for a lot less than it cost. In every one of those cases I had included considerably more money in my bid to do the work. Maybe I should have made the poor guy eat it but I appreciated his work and wanted to work with him in the future. I figured he learned his lesson in the weeks that he spent on the job wondering how cheaply he was working.
Piffan,
That's the way most of the contruction trade is,, that's why performance is so critical.. I go the extra mile for my customers and they benefit, in turn I get repeat business and referals so I benefit..
I love that part of construction!
I'd wait until the plumbers and electricians are done and then have him come back and block. >:-)
Seriously though thats his responsibility and he knows it, he's just seeing if he can get away with it because you're new to this. IMHO
Dave
Thats EXACTLY what mimi needs to tell the framer. Those words will work magic as far as getting him to finish the work.
Pardon my ignorance, what do you mean by partition blocking?
Any where a petition runs parralell to the floor joists, and is not directly over one (or a double) there needs to be in place, between the floor joists. beneath the petition, (under the subfloor) blocking every 3' or less of material of or close to similiar dimension as that of the floor joists.
This is of utmost importance under interior door openings (directly under the kings and jacks) and pony walls. This is what will support the petition above, as over time it will begin to sink causing a myriad of problems like cracks in sheetrock and stuck doors among others.
Your framer should take care of this for you even if he underbid the work. At first I thought you were talking about a whole house and I thought"big deal, its' gonna take a WHOLE day to knock this out. Your case, he should be out of there by lunch. If he doesn't, he is going to loose alot more that a couple of bucks because you won't reccommend him to anyone else will you?
It might be a prudent move to hire someone capable for a day or so to check up on his work to at least make sure that it is complete. You DO NOT want ANY mechanical work done until the framing is 101% complete.
Good Luck,
Eric
Print out this thread to show your framer and GC. Do not allow them to intimidate you under any circumstances.
Can you say; attempted "hood wink"
let him go.
You'll have to get out your hammer and saw anyway for the subs, so whats a few extra sticks?
Next time hire the dude to get you through inspections.
his job unless your contract says otherwise
its a whole lot easier before water and sparkie rolls in
let him kow its his trip and that the plumber is starting on..................
sparkie is starting ......................................
accomidate him let him know he can work at night and he can bring his dinner
under bid, loosing his butt, wah! ( been there but I finihsed without raising my price or screwwing up time lines, expensive tuition)
you went with the cheepest bid, wah!
you get what you pay for
I don't know. It may depend on local custom. The contract should say.
Around here it is not uncommon for the GC to, at least the ones I like to work with, have a lead carpenter on site most of the time. He acts as the GCs functionary sealing up the building and bird dogging the many conflicts and minor problems on the job. Mostly the fire blocks and drywall backing is in place but any additional dead wood, such as needed for plumbers and electricians the carpenter on site handles. He usually does a better job than the butchery the drip chasers and the shock jocks do.
This program seems to make everything go much smoother. Partly because this experienced carpenter is authorized to make most decisions when issues come up. So any questions as to where they want something, any details or conflicts between trades get solved on the spot. This works out much better for everyone as the negotiations get done face-to-face. A lot fewer miscommunications and the head GC doesn't have to be bothered by every little thing.
Hot load of cr#p handed to you on a silver platter. Totally his responsibility. I'd be kind and agreeable if he'd brought it up in something resembling a diplomatic matter, but that wasn't the case. I think he just put you in a position where your only out is to go ahead and play the bad guy. And don't feel the least bit guilty about it. He made the call. It's his job. If he wants to have you do it, fine. Backcharge, and make sure everything else is satisfactory before you cut the check. If the trimmer has to take a sledgehammer to a wall in order to not have a door be crosslegged, then the trimmers time and the drywall fix is on him too. Rare day when I don't play Mr. Rodgers and have a beautiful in the neighborhood for all concerned, but jerk me around, . . .
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I have been thinking this whole deal over some more.
I ask myself, under what circumstances would a GC be the one to take care of the backup framing? That sounds like a big project - condos, apts, or dozens of tract houses. High speed production work. He would want to keep the full framing crew moving along fast and put a good man on the backup framing to take care of what got missed by the slammin' and bammin' crew.
So that leads me to think that this framer is one with limited experience, having only worked on the kind of job.
Now, we know that remo and addition work is always slower and more detailed than new and big jobs.
My assumption is that the reason he misbid is that he priced it according to the only experience he has had up to now. And on jobs like that, a good bedside manner is less common than on home improvement jobs. There is better money in aditions and remo for the right people, but he won't get any more of it if he doesn't learn from this job. And if the poster who started this lets him walk over him, then the framer will miss his big chance to learn and grow up.
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Well said Piffin and RW!
I do a lot of framing for GC's and builders and there isn't one thing they have to go back and nail in. If I framed a job for either one of you two when I'm done you call in all your trades and that's it Period. Unless you get a smart a$$ plumber or electrician that knocks out one of my fire blocks instead of drilling a hole, then they have to put it back in or you have to because I'm not coming back to do it.
We've all been there underbidding a job before but like RW said if the framer approached him like a gentleman and discussed it then you can work something out because it sounds like to me that when I asked the original poster if the framer was the cheapest price he said Yes and it was an addition. So to me it sounds like the framer probably gave him the same price to frame the addition as he would to frame a house.
There's some jobs that I frame where we don't do the exterior trim or put the windows in because the GC has his own guys and wants to keep them busy. That's fine but it's all discussed before I price the job but even with that you still don'y leave out nailers and fire blocks, that's all a part of framing plain and simple.
There's additions I bid where I will just price the three outside walls and rafters and later on the GC will go back and break through the house because it's winter time and cold and put the necessary headers in and frame the new openings to the existing house. That's all apart of framing but it was all discussed before I bid the job and was told not to frame all that.
Nailers and fire blocking is never discussed, it's all a part of the framing. When the floor joists and ceiling joists go up so does the nailers for sheetrock, it's all part of the system. Around here we usually give 2 rows of plywood in the attic which we call(Cat Walk) but sometimes we're told to to do the whole attic, that's fine but I will figure for it. Could you imagine if this was a house and the framer left out all the nailers and fire blocking.
Joe Carola
Exactly! i'd been imagining what yopur response would be and anticipated it pretty well.
Once you let the standard down to saying, "Well that is for the GC ( or whoevcer) to do after I leave" where does it end? It becomes an excuse to leave out more and more on each and every job after that.
"oh, you wanted the windows cut out?"
"double jacks under that twelve foot header?"
There is one item that I can expect to pay extra for in framing.
- Backer blocking for towel bars, kitchen cabs, shower grab bars, pictures, etc. Those details may not be all ironed out when the place is being framed. Or if the owner decides they want plinth blocks at base of the casing on doors, it is good to have extra nailing blocks there too. But that is for my rtrim convenience, not required for structural inspection.
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