hi everyone it’s been a while since i visited,i am helping someone.out with asecond floor addition and it is a ranch house,the attic floor joists are 2x6s. were going to be using 2x8s or 2x10s for the new floor,and i was wondering if i could get some pro advise on an easy way to remove the old gable wall.and the existing attic 2x6s or just sister the new floor joists to the existing 2x6s. thanks any help would be appreceated.
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Replies
Easiest way to remove the gable wall is with a chainsaw. Try to avoid framing nails and then clean up with recip and pry bars.
I hate sistering floor framing to existing ceiling joists for a multitude of reasons that I'll share with you if you ask. Whenever possible, I cut back the existing joists to 1 1/2" inside the wall and install a rim joist all the way around. Then I run a single or double plate around the perimeter and frame my new floor system on top of that.
EDIT: Are you trying to leave the existing ceiling (sheetrock or plaster) in place or is the ceiling to be a gut-job as well?
Edited 11/14/2006 9:03 pm ET by dieselpig
I agree. As a matter of fact, if you're trying to salvage any electrical conduit running perpendicular on top of the existing ceiling joists, we even double up the new wood plate. That gives you 3" of space between top of old ceiling joists and bottome of new floor joists.
so actually there will be two floors,and the attic floor joists' are already insulated,so that will actually act as a sound barrier from the traffic between the up and down stairs.so i would use a recip saw to cut the joists back 1 1/2, being the existing joists are 2x6s,are they going to beable to carry the load above.and what are the reasons why you do it this way if you don't mind me asking.and you wouldn't happen to have any pictures of new gable walls would you,just so i can get some good desighn ideas.if not thanks anyway for the great ideas. i have gotten exellent advise here in the past and everything worked out great.thanks again for the advise.
Depending on how the existing ceiling joists and existing roof is framed, chances are there is no continuous rim joist at the ends of existing ceiling joists, though there may be blocking between the joists. Cutting back the existing ceiling joists 1 1/2" allows you to provide room for the rim joist at the existing ceiling joist level. The existing ceiling joists are only holding he weight of the ceiling. Running a single or double wood plate at the perimeter on top of the ceiling joist and new rim joist provide you a bearing surface for your new floor joists which should be sized for floor loading. The original ceiling joists are probable sized only for the ceiling and attic load. What you have now are a new floor framed above and existing ceiling frame beneath.
I second Dieselpig's recommendation not to sister existing. I recently found out the hard way. Was planning on leaving existing joists on my rehab 'cause they weren't really in the way of new framing -- until it came time to nail up the solid blocking the archy spec'd. that wasn't thought of when it "was" a great idea to just leave the existing. Doh! Out came the recip saw and another trip to the dump. Double doh! ;-)
Never tried doing it the way Dieselpig suggested, but next time I will. Sounds like a great idea. Existing is not in the way and no demo/disposal. Perfect solution.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 11/15/2006 9:51 am ET by philarenewal
I do exactly as Brian said. We cut back the existing ceiling joists 1-1/2" and add the same height box as the ceiling joist and add a plate on top, sometimes two plates on top.
On the gable end we nail a double ceiling joist on with a plate on top and then sit the I-joist or 2x beams on top of that.
It just makes everything so much easier for all wiring, plumbing, HVAC....etc.
If you have an existing set of stairs going to the second floor like most of the Cape Cod style houses that I do add-a-levels on, you’ll have to cut out and double up your existing ceiling joists also if you put the new set of stairs in a different location or if you keep them in the same location you will have to cut out the wall and add a couple more risers and reframe around the stairwell
I’m not really sure what your concern is about the gable end framing. Once you put the 2x6 box on there and then add your new joists on top of the plates, your decking will run straight through and you have a whole deck to deal with and you just frame as if it was new.
If you have a ranch house then you can put your stairs anywhere.
Most of the add-a-levels that I do, the front windows are usually a big picture window with two flankers/side windows or a bay or bow window at least 8’- 10’ wide. The headers are always undersized and sagging.
If your not taking out the existing windows and don’t plan on jacking up the wall straight and adding a new header properly sized, then I string lines from end to end putting my two outside joists on and install flush microlam headers and hang the joists.
The center wall usually has a sag in it also and some jobs we install beams below and jack up. Some jobs we install beams above and put post underneath. Either way you always have to string the walls side by side in the front middle and back of the house so that the second floor is level shimming where necessary.
so its a good idea to beef up the window headers below to help support the load from sagging headers from the new addition.or only if im replacing the windows on the main level.also when you say string the walls, you mean to make sure the walls are not bowed right.
>> so its a good idea to beef up the window headers below to help support the load from sagging headers from the new addition.or only if im replacing the windows on the main level. <<You have to beef them up no matter what. There already sagging because they were undersized to begin width. Now you’re putting a second floor on.If you don't change the header on the first floor you just stick a flush header above at the same height as the new joists and then use joist hangers for the new joists.>> also when you say string the walls, you mean to make sure the walls are not bowed right. <<No. I mean nail your new joists on each end of the house, the two gable ends or if it's a hip roof the two side walls. If the front of your house from left to right for example is 40', you nail the joist on the left side and right side. String a line on top of the new joists the whole 40' length and then nail the top of your joists flush to the line and shim underneath.You do this on the back wall and your center wall. If you don't do this your whole second floor addition will follow the whole first floor that's up and down all over the place and your floors and top plates will all be out of level.Or you don't string anything and have your new floor out of level and up and down but then you can string your top plates of the new second floor either by shimming or cutting studs different heights. I would never waste time doing that. I make the floor straight and that's it.There are so many different situations you can have doing an add-a-level that you might have to beefed up the center girder below of add beams in the center wall of the first floor because the first floor might have a big opening that has a beam in there that can only support the ceiling but can't support the new second floor above.The last two add-a-levels I framed we had to put in microlams across these first floor openings. We put them above and mad them flush and hang our joists with joists hangers so that we didn’t have to disturb the first floor. The microlams were supported on one end by the foundation and the other end landed above the first floor wall and there was a lally column underneath in the basement.Joe Carola
I agree with Framer. You can safely assume the original headers were sized just to carry the roof and ceiling load, not a floor load etc.
so i would need to replace all the window and door headers below. even the ones that are not sagging,because they all nee d to be resized anyway to carry the new load of the second floor add on,even if im not replacing the windows and doors on the first floor,i still have to resize all the headers right ,am i correct
Put headers in on the top plate and hanger your new floor joists off the new header. The header has to be long enough to span across your first story openings.
im not quite understanding which part of the house your talking about.i should beable to just replaca all the headers and lay new plates on top of the old joists after i cut them back. and then lay my plates down then my new joists on top of them.
You can tearout and replace all your old headers
or
you can span above the openings with headers and hanger your new floor off of them.
when you say span the headers you meen double up the rim joists where the windows and doors are below ,then hang my floor joists off of it. im not sure what span a new header over the openings mean.i just don't understand how a spanned header for the 1st floor ties into the second floor joists.forgive me im a little green at this.but i got some advise here before and the project came out mint.im just having a problem with some people explaining it in a technical way.if you have a diagram or a pic it would be helpful,if not thanks anyways.
Edited 11/16/2006 10:02 am ET by T3
Edited 11/16/2006 10:09 am ET by T3
At least doubled up rim joist with no seams above your first story windows. . And you would make them long enough to span the openings below them.
This creates a header that moves any loads to the structure on each side of your first story openings. And not on your undersized first story headers.
I'll try to dig up some drawings or pictures for you.
You are making it hard to resist. I think your suggestion to "double the rim" is a good example of how we end up with undersized headers in the first place. Engineering evaluation would be needed to effectively evaluate whether or not doubles (for example) would be adequate. Don't get me wrong I agree that the idea of a flush header is a good one, after all, that is what I suggested too.
It seems that alternatively, these threads attract the "get an engineer" vs. "we do this all the time" debate. Kind of like "taste great - less filling".
There are ways to mess things up using either approach (engineering evaluation or rules of thumb). I would just think that the way to "know" that you are doing it in accordance with the code required loading is to do the analysis of the actual loads, spans etc.
No offense intended. I just wanted to point it out.
I believe I said double the rim at least.
In heavy load and big span cases this may mean more than two or steel plates. I am giving this guy an option to take to an engineer if there is a question. If he is going take what I say as the gospel he's got bigger problems than a few headers.
You take a walk through one of my frames and see if you can find something undersized. I build a very strong house that will last longer than the ones built around it by far. I look for ways to make a structure last longer, not slap the f#$cker together to grab and check and run.
I have a great reputation in my area as one of the best framers for a reason. So try and resist pointing fingers and making an example out of someone okay.
Simmer down now.
I didn't say that you don't consider the load. It appears to me (from your previous reply "at least" and your latest reply) that you are well aware of the differences involved with these conditions. My point was that you and anyone else can determine these things by properly assessing the loads. I think we are in agreement on that.
While we're on the subject of (not) slamming others... what was it that you just did to all the framers who build "all around it by far"?
I may have taken your reply the wrong way. So I apologize if thats the case.
Basically I gave him an idea to run with, I haven't seen the house in question nor do I know what part of the planet it happens to be located. So my advice may not even help the dude out.
And as for the competition in my area the homes they build are built to a minimum. Stapled sheeting, point loads missed, undersized headers or no headers, facias out of level, walls way out of plumb, stairs with uneven risers and the list goes on.
I look for better ways of doing things make life easier on the subs that follow me. Such as stacking the framing (studs lineup with floor joists above and below). As well as better methods of framing. Heres one example of how I mount stringers.
You sound like a knowledgable guy and your info and experience will be appreciated around here. I sometimes take offense when I am included with part of the problem, when I look for ways to be a part of the solution. Good to have you around.
T3,
If you decide to put your new joists above the existing ceiling joists that has a 2x plate around the perimeter, you just put a flush header in the same height as the new joists. If you use 2x10's for your new joists you can get a 3-1/2" x 9-1/2" microlam that will span the width of the existing sagging header below.Your already cutting out the existing 2x6's ceiling joists 1-1/2" and putting in a 2x6 box and then a plate on top of that. Now just double up that section of box in between the existing ceiling joists with another 2x6 under the ends of the new flush beam. Sit your beam in top of the plate and then cut your new joists to fit and hang them on joist hangers.If you don't go on top and you do sister the joists, you will have to cut back the all the existing ceiling joists 3-1/2" and use a 3-1/2" x 9-1/2" microlam and use double joists hangers because you will have to hang both the existing ceiling joists and the new 2x10 joists that are sisterd to them.Here's a sketch showing what I mean. I didn't draw the box in so that you can see a cross section of what it would be. The existing ceiling joists would be cut back 1-1/2" to allow for the box.Hope this helps.
Joe Carola
ok lets see if i got this right. i cut the existing joists back 1 1/2 then i nail a 2x6 for the rim,then i double the original 2x6 joists on each end just below the new flush header.so its actually sistering each just below where the above header is going to be .next i lay my plates around the top of that perimiter,then i size up the new header and rest it on top of the plate and my other joists will rest on the plate also.then i i cut the other joists to size and hanger them to the flush header.but how do you tie the new rim to the header,since they but against eachother.did i leave anything out or did i even get any of this right.
After messing around with second floor retrofits and not saving time or money over tearing it all out and starting with new top plates on up that's the only way I'll do a second story now.
I'll second the idea of beefing up the rim joist to act as a header for any openings below.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
>> ok lets see if i got this right. i cut the existing joists back 1 1/2 then i nail a 2x6 for the rim, <<Yes.>> then i double the original 2x6 joists on each end just below the new flush header.so its actually sistering each just below where the above header is going to be . <<No, your doubling the rim by cutting a 2x6 14-3/8" in between the existing ceiling joists because the end of the header might land in between the 16" center, so you want full bearing underneath the two ends.>> next i lay my plates around the top of that perimiter,then i size up the new header and rest it on top of the plate and my other joists will rest on the plate also.then i i cut the other joists to size and hanger them to the flush header. <<Yes.>> but how do you tie the new rim to the header,since they but against eachother. <<You just said it. They butt into each other and that's it. Toenail the top of the rimboard into the top of the header and toenail it into the plate and a couple toenails on the side of the rimboard into the header. That's all you do and you’re done.
Joe Carola
what i mean, where ever the new header is going to be,just below that header,on each side of that header is where i double up each 2x6.am i correct.im not sure what you mean by double up the rim joists.
>> what i mean, where ever the new header is going to be,just below that header,on each side of that header is where i double up each 2x6.am i correct.im not sure what you mean by double up the rim joists. <<I'm saying that your 2x6 existing ceiling joists run perpendicular to your new rim/box (I call it box you call it rim)that you put on after cutting back the existing joists 1-1/2".Now your flush header that will sit on top, wherever the each end lands in the middle of an existing ceiling joist is, you cut a 2x6 14-1/2" and nail it parallel to the back of the new box you just put in.Before you said that you would nail a double ceiling joist. You don't have to do that, just nail another 2x6 to the back of the rim/box where ever the ends of the flush header land.Sometimes the ends land right on top of the existing ceiling joistsJoe Carola
thanks for all the info and the pics and your patients,you have been a great help.im just wondering how to cut all the 2x6 joists straight.since i have to cut all the 2x6s joists on the house. i know i have to scribe lines 1 1/2'' back, you know that recip saw sometimes can be wobbely and i don't want to have a problem when i go to put the rim accross the whole house. only because i don't want to end up with gaps between the joists and rim. is there some kind of jig i can make or a easy way of cutting them.thanks again.oh i almost forgot,where the new joists connect in the centers,because the new lumber won't be long enough to spann, the existing joistst are resting on a carrying wall which rest on a in the basement which is 7'' thick.what will keep the centers of the new joists from sagging, do i also run plates down the center the same height as the perimiter plates.
Edited 11/18/2006 11:54 am ET by T3
Anytime T3.Just run the first cut through with your circular saw that should get you down about 2-1/2". I know that does with my makitas. Then just continue with a sawzall, I always do. A little gap in between the joist and the box won't cause a problem. You really don't want to waste time with this because it's an A-A-L and time is important do to the weather.If your not comfortable with the sawzall then I don't know what else to tell you to use other then a jigsaw or a sharp handsaw. I would still use the sawzall and learn how to get used to it because I'm sure that you'll be fine with it.>> where the new joists connect in the centers, because the new lumber won't be long enough to span, the existing joists are resting on a carrying wall which rest on a in the basement which is 7'' thick.what will keep the centers of the new joists from sagging, do i also run plates down the center the same height as the perimiter plates. <<Yes, you have to run a plate if you’re splicing joists unless you use I-joists that can span the whole length without needing the center wall. Make sure you don't have any big openings on that center wall like I was saying earlier because you might have to beef up those headers also.String a line down the center also to see if there is any sagging in the center wall below. If there are, that's an indication that a header below isn't big enough. Putting the second floor load will be the worst thing to do. You can either put flush headers in like I said before or you have to put new headers underneath.
Joe Carola
running a string down the center of existing joists will show if i have any gaps in the center wall.then i would have to shim ip the new joists right. but how would i beef up the headers below, without disturbing the existing 2x6s.or changing the opening heights below,or am i wrong about this process.as far as cutting the joists,thats what i was going to do,but i thought you might have used another tool thats a 1 shot deal.ok i got a dewalt saw which has been through alot and still works like the day i bought it which was about 5-6 years ago and a brand new riggid recip saw.i used to own a milwalkee,that thing didn't last long at all.the thing blew up on me.and it wasn't even that old.i was surprised because i take good care of my stuff.thanks again for the help. the knowledge you get from FHB is priceless. very much appreciated.theres not to many guys' like you framer around anymore.
>> but how would i beef up the headers below, without disturbing the existing 2x6s.or changing the opening heights below,or am i wrong about this process. <<If you run into a problem with a sagging undersized header in the center wall and had to beef up the headers below, you would have to take it out and put a bigger one in or the same height header but using a microlam header.If you don't plan on disturbing the first floor and replacing a bad header you can put a flush header in exactly the same way as I showed you for the front wall cutting new joists to fit and hanging them with joists hangers.What is the span of your joists from front to back?Joe Carola
Generally, if there will be new (additional) load on a header, it is likely that it will need to be re-sized.
(BTW it's interesting to hear all the comments about original headers sagging, but that is a different thread. We don't need to hijack this one!)
What is being said here is that often, existing headers are not well sized and in such cases you must consider whether or not you are going to need to increase the size. There are often ways to do this without getting into the existing wall and header framing. Installing headers that are flush with the new second floor framing might be effective. Also. sometimes there is no change in the loading such as when a roof load can be removed and it is "replaced" with a floor loading (typically of a shorter span). Perhaps the floor above would have a window of the same size as the first floor opening. Of course, it would be unlikely that the load on the jack studs will not increase but there are ways that someone who is familiar with house framing (preferably and engineer) could evaluate these conditions.
There are engineers who are familiar with residential framing and I think they would be best suited for this job. The fact that there might be a lot of openings to consider can be time consuming (and therefore costly for an engineer). IF you have original plans or have the luxury of being able to expose all/some of the headers, it would likely save the engineer some time and save you or the owner some cost.
>> (BTW it's interesting to hear all the comments about original headers sagging, but that is a different thread. We don't need to hijack this one!) <<But it is one of the most important parts of an add-a-level project, so it's not really high jacking the thread.Any first floor house that I frame A-A-L's on that have small window and door openings with 2x10 headers is always fine for a second floor unless there was a point load directly from above from a big beam carrying a heavy load. Then we will remove it and replace with a microlam.All the front or back big windows existing window headers 99% of the time are sagging. If the A-A-L will have a cantilever front and back or just front or just back, you can't put a flush header in, we have to remove the first floor header and replace that with a microlam.Many times the wall from the living room to the dining room was opened to a 12'-16' span with a flush header only big enough to support the existing ceiling. Now the Homeowners still want a flush header above the ceiling to run straight through.What I did this past summer was sit the new joists on top of the existing and ripped the existing beam that held the ceiling out and replaced it with a 3-1/2" x 16" microlam keeping the of it flush to the bottom of the existing ceiling joists and hanging them. My hew I-joists hung from the 16" microlam above.This way the downstairs didn't have to have a dropped beam in there. Rising the new joists above the old helped out with this situation.Joe Carola
Edited 11/16/2006 12:42 pm ET by Framer
Are the 'add-a-levels' you discuss on Capes dormer framed, or do they involve removing the original roof entirely? Seems like the loss of 10" of headroom (by building new floor on top of old) for many capes (like mine for example) would reduce the upstairs livable space under dormers considerably. Is there a way to preserve more headroom without being a huge PITA?
Chris
>> Are the 'add-a-levels' you discuss on Capes dormer framed, or do they involve removing the original roof entirely? <<I'm talking about removing the whole roof.>> Seems like the loss of 10" of headroom (by building new floor on top of old) for many capes (like mine for example) would reduce the upstairs livable space under dormers considerably. <<Yes, it would. If your cape is staying the way it is and you’re not changing the stairs and keeping the original ones, then you can't put the beams on top. Most of the capes that I do A-A-L's on are only 24' wide and we just use the existing joist, no sistering unless they want a cantilever on the front or back or even both. Either way, the floor height can't change and stays the same.>> Is there a way to preserve more headroom without being a huge PITA? <<I've done many capes that just had a front dormer or back dormer and kept the existing ridge. I've also done capes where we kept the existing ridge and extended it for a front or back dormer to increase the ceiling height so that we didn’t have to disturb the existing roof.I got a set of plans one time where the Architect drew dormers front and back keeping the existing ridge. The ridge was only about 9' to the top. It made no sense to do that at all. I called him up and told him that I have to rip the entire roof off anyway, so why keep the existing ridge at 9' and have 7' walls when the roof is ripped off that I can just frame 8' walls and a new roof with a higher ridge.It was all under the height restriction anyway, so that's what we did.
Joe Carola
Confirm that the floor joist aren't doubling as the roof collar. Check the roof system for a continuous ridge beam or a collar 2/3 up from the attic floor line. Once you determind that the floor joist are not a structural component then removal is a matter of balance between the effort to sister, which does not require removal of the clg below or complete reframing of the clg/ floor assembly