My partner and I have been asked to give an estimate to build a wood frame house here in Israel. The architect supposedly had some training in the US and supposedly understands wood frame construction.
In the design of the house, however, he has stepped back the upper floor exterior walls in a number of places from the exterior walls of the first floor. This is not just a matter of a foot or two but there are a couple of instances where the exterior corners of the upper floor land in the middle of the ceiling of the room below. There is no place to artfully install a beam or post at these locations, so I am wondering if just regular floor joist framing and spacing is enough to support these upper floor corners (and roof corners) or should we double up the joists that run parallel to the upper walls or what? It just doesn’t seem strong enough to us for the ceiling/floor joists alone to support the load of the upper floor walls.
There is no inspector or engineer here to ask as they don’t know about wood frame houses and there is no code here for wood frame houses.
Help please?
Thanks
Nagar1
Replies
I'd love to see the drawings, but it sure doesn't sound right. All exterior walls don't neccessarily bear roof loading, but . . .
Forrest
Oh yeah - what's the snow load?
;-)
Forrest
Snow Load? I did mention that this was in Israel didn't I?
Snow will not be a problem in the location of this house.
Something like that would certainly call for more than simply doubleing joists.
I am working now on a plan for somebody that will call for some special engineering, but I am not showing that in plan yet, while presenting it as a concept, but I know it can be done. Once the buy into the concept placement, then I will do the more technical drawings and have engineering done for it.
Perhaps your current plans are "not for construction" concept drawings only. I have often as a builder or lead carpenter, been handed "plans" to build for that were in actuality concept drawings only and I had to figure out the engineering. These were owner/contractors who were trying to cut the archy out of the full participation and profits.
But I have also known architects who did not seem to know the difference and who got a blank confused look when asked for working drawings...
So, like Forrest, I am mostly in the dark without seeing what you have there.
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Thanks for the reply.
These plans are the working drawings, but as I mentioned, the architect may or may not be familiar with wood frame houses and it looks like the plans are drawn up for building a concrete/cement block house as is the norm here. I don't have the plans with me right now or I would scan some sections and show you.
The owner also won't tell us the name of the architect so we could talk to him directly. There is something funny going on there but that's another story and we are going to be very careful with this one.
"The owner also won't tell us the name of the architect so we could talk to him directly. "This is getting weird. What designer submits plans without putting their name on them?Which raises the question whether there is a real architect. Could be somebody only partially qualified, in a state where full credentials are required. So s/he kept the name off to avoid prosecution or lawsuits.
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These plans are the working drawings, but as I mentioned, the architect may or may not be familiar with wood frame houses and it looks like the plans are drawn up for building a concrete/cement block house as is the norm here.
First red flag.Wood frame or block, it doesn't matter, the plans should show what will hold the wall/roof up because there will be no block under that second floor wall anyway. Like I said already, the beam doesn't have to go in the floor, or can go in the second floor wall at the bottom or under the two top plates.
The owner also won't tell us the name of the architect so we could talk to him directly.
Second red flag.
There is something funny going on there but that's another story and we are going to be very careful with this one.
Third and final red flag. Why are you even bidding this job, and how are you bidding this job without this information. Are you just guessing at it to get in the door and then add to the bid all the extras later?
Joe Carola
Thanks for your reply. There are not a lot of carpenters in Israel that can build properly a wood frame house. My partner and I have built a few together. (I am a Canadian trained journeyman carpenter as well as a teacher of carpentry/woodwork in Canada and my partner has built houses in the US). The rest of the time I build furniture and cabinets, pergolas decks, what have you, as he does as well. There are not a lot of requests for wood frame houses here so when one comes up we try to get it. That being said, we will not give a price to the owner until all our questions have been answered to our satisfaction.
From the good info that I have received here today, we will probably tell the owner that the plans as drawn are not adequate and to get them fixed up.
What are the dimensions on the first and second floor?
Is the second floor a hip roof or gable where the wall sits in the center of the room?
How far back from the outside wall on the first floor does the second floor sit?
Are the floor joists running parallel or perpendicular to the second floor wall?
There are many scenarios here. This type of framing is done all the time, naturally it is designed for it. If the Architect has nothing underneath this wall, it's an obvious mistake. Call him up and ask him.
I had this exact situation years ago and nothing on the plans. I called the Architect before I bid the job and he made an obvious mistake. We had to put a 5-1/2x9-1/2" micrlam under the wall below. The second floor wall was a hip roof. The wall sat in the middle of the room like yours.
I just frame a second story addition where the second floor wall sits back 3'. The joist below are 1-3/4"x11-7/8" lvl's. Also, the lvl's have a slash cut on top at the outside wall because there's a roof sitting on that wall and I had to cut every single lvl on an angle so that the they didn't stick above the rafters.
What you have can be done. If the Architect requires microlam that is taller than your floor joists below, you can stick the microlam above the floor joists on the second floor wall that spans the distance. That will take all the weight off that wall and put it above and you won't need a beam in the floor. This is done all the time also. I just did it.
I stepped back to review what your original question was.
As Joe points out, yes it can be done, butit certainly needs more detailing to be able to estimate or bid the job.
So my reply to the prospective client would be something like this...
"Thank you very much for the opportunity to provide you an estimate for your project. However, the plans as presented are incomplete and not adequate to build from nor to base any sort of accurate estimate on. We would require more details as outlined below...
______________________
_______________________
We could have this engineering and detailing done for you at an estimated cost of $_______ if that is your desire. We do believe it would be best for your architect to complete this design first though, to avoid potential conflicts of design ownership and engineering liabilities.
Please forward complete information from your architect or submit a deposit of $____ so we can retain an engineer to provide needed information.
after receiving one or the other, we can proceed with making an estimate for you"
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From what I know, you need bearing under the walls, and I have only ever been able to shift load back 3 feet or so from a bearing point with a roof load. What type of roofing?
I totally agree with Piffin's last comment, though.
Be careful!
From what I know, you need bearing under the walls,
Not always. Depending on the situation, you can always put the beam in the wall at the top plate or sitting right on the shoe spanning the distance of the room and supported at each end the same as if the beam were at floor level.
Joe Carola