We have what look like some problems in the basement too. Please let me know what you see in these photos, and if anything should be done about them. Some background may help:
We had a very wet month, and once the electric light circuit was turned on in the basement, I noticed a lot of spots where water had been seeping. The photos were taken the next day, after a cold front came in and everything froze outside, which seemed to let the basement dry out some, but you can still see white powder where the seepage had been. This basement has only been around since September.
There’s also an external basement staircase with the same problem, but it froze on both sides.
An early photo that shows the basement shortly after it was laid also shows that no tar sealant is visible above the dirt line. The sealant was applied, but lies somewhere below the dirt.
Also, the drain for the basement seems awful deep.
Replies
do you know what or how the backfill was done???
where are the gutter down spouts relative to the seepage locations???
what is yur soil composistion???
what type of soil do you have???
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do you know what or how the backfill was done???
The general contractor told me that he put in 10 inches of rock, fabric, and dirt. The dirt is about 7 - 7.5 ft.
where are the gutter down spouts relative to the seepage locations???
Some near, some not. One is next to the original basement wall, but no downspout is nearby.
Just had another fresh rain and found seepage at the ground level at a corner with a downspout.
what is yur soil composistion???
Clay.
what type of soil do you have???
Mud. Been raining for nearly a month.
water proofing is too low on the wall... dig out the back fill and finish the water proofing...
water isn't draining away from the building... grade/slope the surrounding area away from the structure..
way too much soil and not enough rock... clay will hold the water to the building...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
water proofing is too low on the wall... way too much soil and not enough rock... clay will hold the water to the building...
Sounds like some digging and rock are in order...
maybe 6 and half feet of dirt less...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Looks like you have a clay soil. How much gravel did they backfill with? Obviously not enough, the water is standing next to the foundation, the discoloration is probably the color of the soil. See a connection?
Without gravel the block wall will continue to soak up water and seep inside.
The foundation needs to dug up and backfilled with gravel to 12" of final grade, sock tile in the bottom. And while the walls are exposed a thick coat of foundation coating needs to be applied.
The drain is all wrong as well, too much slope. See the leaves sitting there? That will continue to happen, with that much slope the water runs away and leaves the solids in place. Not all bad, but someone is going to break their ankle around that thing.
Woods favorite carpenter
now that I got a case of brain lock...
what is the membrain used for foundation WP...
it's similar to I&W or the type with the dimples...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I can't think of the name either.
Woods favorite carpenter
Dimples = Delta MS
Looks like you have a clay soil. How much gravel did they backfill with? Obviously not enough, the water is standing next to the foundation, the discoloration is probably the color of the soil. See a connection?
Contractor told me he put in about 10" of gravel. And yes, the soil is clay. Not a good color for the basement walls.
The foundation needs to dug up and backfilled with gravel to 12" of final grade, sock tile in the bottom. And while the walls are exposed a thick coat of foundation coating needs to be applied.
That's what we plan to do.
The drain is all wrong as well, too much slope. See the leaves sitting there? That will continue to happen, with that much slope the water runs away and leaves the solids in place. Not all bad, but someone is going to break their ankle around that thing.
That's what I think. Is it just a matter of pouring more concrete over what is there and raising the drain?
How is the drain attached?
Is it a glue in drain?
I would pull the grill cover off the drain and figure out a way to extend the drain to the desired height. PVC you go and find a fitting that you can use and a new glue on drain.
You mnay have to cut around the outside of the drain to get a coupler on it, or find something that fits the ID snugly, almost like a street elbow.
You may be able to get a drain thats tall enough to fit your new height as well, thats what I'd check into first. Go to a real plumbing supply house and tell them what you want to do and they should help with what you need.
Bonding agent will be needed between the old and new concrete. Thats very important. If not used the patch will most likely crumble. Woods favorite carpenter
How is the drain attached? Is it a glue in drain? It is an 6" round non-adjustable EOL Sand Interceptor in SCH20/ABS
I would pull the grill cover off the drain and figure out a way to extend the drain to the desired height. PVC you go and find a fitting that you can use and a new glue on drain.
Pulled off the drain. I'll talk with the contractor about getting the fitting and also take care of the new concrete, using bonding agent. Gonna keep an eye on what he does.
Dave,
This guy is on vacation right now?
He is on vacation with the money he has pretty much stolen from you!
He gives you a sh!t job with nothing actually right and goes on vacation with the money. Unbelievable.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/27/2008 12:12 pm ET by MattSwanger
That 10" of "gravel" should be washed stone and it is the bare minimum to surrond the drain pipe. I try to get it at least 10=-12" ABOVE the top of the pipe. Did you mention landscape fabric? That keeps tjhe fiones from silting things up and blcoking t all.But all that has to do with the bottom. If he backfilled with the native clay instead of a porous gravel, the water cannot run thru it to get to the bottom perimeter drain, so it is going through the wall instead. That is where a dimplemat wall drain system comes in.
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Did you mention landscape fabric?
Don't know about landscape fabric; contractor didn't say and I didn't observe this part of the job closely. Given all we've seen, I have doubts. Is there a way to check, such as digging down a foot or two next to the wall?
Lanscape fabric or geotextile would be immediately above that 10-12" of gravel near base of wal to keep fines out of the stone so the drain does not get silted in.
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A thought here -
I think you mentioned someplace in all your threads that this was designed by an architect.
Was it a complete architectural contract with site inspections included or was it a fee for design drawings only? If the former, he could have some concern in all this.
If the latter, the drawings should have specified either porous mineral soil backfill or dimple mat drain up the wall.
If he neglected that detail, he has an omission. If he did note that, then you have clear documentation of failure to perform to design/contract for the contractor.
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I wouldn't be suprised if the contractor left the plans details out.
I spoke with Dave by phone last night and the shower surround speced a 40" unit for his father to access. THe contractor put in a 32" stating he couldn't find a 40", well Dave found one at the same place the contractor bought the smaller unit.
Any ADA code I've read states 36" as a minimum for anything, his father is the reason for this work. Woods favorite carpenter
Yeah, Matt,
Just from my impression of the layout design and way it fits to the house, the designer/architect had his stuff together so the plans are probably complete.Even if he was in contract to do site visits, this contractor could have tried to pull the wool by covering things up before anybody =saw it.Like the only way we know there is 10" gravel is because he said so!;)
He probably does have 10" in one corner someplace.We can't even verify that the walls were coated with black #### because it ends someplace a foot OR SO ( ???) below the finished grade.
He tried to hide the no step flashing by placing the Jmetal tooo tight so....what else is hidden....????
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I suspect the same as you do, more hidden issues are there.
The black stuff he put on the foundation could have been Rustoleum the way he has been cutting corners.
Woods favorite carpenter
The black stuff he put on the foundation could have been Rustoleum the way he has been cutting corners.
Snort!
wait a minute. That's MY house we're talking about!
;^)
He put in a 32" curbed even though the 40" ADA was spec'd. When I called him on it, he said "I wouldn't know where to find one."
When I searched the internet for what we needed, we found it, in stock at the builder's supplier. Then he said "They cost more money" and and "That would be special order, and it would take weeks to come in."
He did the same thing to us with the master bath's corner shower: Got a 36" when we specified a 40"
Both shower details were spelled out in the contract and in the architectural drawings.
And then there's the 2'8" door put in at the bottom of my 5' wide exterior basement stairwell...
Kinda hard to get a wheel chair over a curb!
Much less manuever one in a 32" shower!
That dude needs help.........
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Do the plans call for a 2'8" door at the bottom of the stairs? If not make him replace that as well. If it calls for the 2'8" door then you are on the hook for the cost to replace it.
Woods favorite carpenter
Was it a complete architectural contract with site inspections included or was it a fee for design drawings only?
Architect is a personal friend from Philadelphia who is licensed for Delaware but works primarily in PA. He did design only, although he did stop by twice to see how things are going in October and the beginning of December, before the finishing work was done and the basement starting showing problems.
If the latter, the drawings should have specified either porous mineral soil backfill or dimple mat drain up the wall.If he neglected that detail, he has an omission. If he did note that, then you have clear documentation of failure to perform to design/contract for the contractor.
Didn't see any mention of porous mineral soil backfill or dimple mat drain in the blueprints. Don't trust my own judgement though, so the relevant blueprint sections are attached. If I posted the wrong section of the blueprints, please let me know.
Would be nice if the requirement was there in black-and-white.
Dave,
According to his plans you're supposed to have a poured concrete wall --- not a CMU wall.
According to his plans you're supposed to have a poured concrete wall --- not a CMU wall.
That change was worked out verbally between the contractor and the architect with my knowledge. The argument was that the truck needed to pour concrete for the entire basement would have done damage to the yard and the neighbor's yard if it was brought back.
If the architect was OK with the change, I was too. At the time, I had a lot less knowledge of construction than I've picked up in the past month, and I was a lot more trusting.
I'm still not clear on the significance of the difference between the two methods. Every home I've ever lived in has had CMU basement walls, and the rest of original house's basement is too, so it didn't stick out as a big issue. What are the benefits of poured concrete, and how significant are they?
One of the benefits is not having porous mortar joints every 8" vertically and 16" horizontally.
Poured walls are more apt to be more waterproof given the same exterior treatment==== or lack thereof.
Poured walls are more apt to be more waterproof given the same exterior treatment.
Makes sense. Thank you!
Looks like you have a clay soil. How much gravel did they backfill with? Obviously not enough, the water is standing next to the foundation, the discoloration is probably the color of the soil. See a connection?
Thank you for calling attention to the color of the clay soil seeping through the basement wall. Outside in the stairwell we have the same thing, but it's much worse. In fact, it looks like this 4-month old wall is beginning to deteriorate, possibly due to freezing. Check out the pics.
Holy Honeysuckle, Hannah!I've never seen it exploding like that before in new work. There has to be a lot of water to be making that much staining, efflorescence and deterioration.How hard of a freeze have you had that far south anyways?
or more likely, several freeze/thaw cycles. That does more damage than one hard freeze all winter.
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With the exception of the cost of the flooring, it seems that a lot of what problems you have could be fixed with mostly labor cost and little materials dollars, so he could conceivably do this right and not end up broke...
...I've never seen it exploding like that before in new work. There has to be a lot of water to be making that much staining, efflorescence and deterioration.
Given what you see happening with that exterior basement stairwell wall, do you still think that this could be fixed mainly through labor and at relatively low cost?
This one could create a bigger problem, because it may break my strategy for saving the big-ticket items for last.
The contractor came back from his vacation last week and has been working on the small fixes. The bathroom fixtures have come in and he will start installing them today. My plan was to then have him flash the roof.
The current plan is to save the basement wall issues until everything else is done except for the hardwood floors. Given that his crew now consists of himself and one employee, it could take weeks before we deal with it.
The question is: Can the basement walls wait that long? Or is it already too late and the damage is done, so there's no hurry? Or are the walls savable but only if we deal with them right away?
By the way, right before he went on vacation I called attention to the dirt and water seeping through the exterior basement stairwell wall, saying that it looked like there was a problem with the water sealing, and his response was that it was OK because the wall is outside of the house.
It might be OK for him, but not for the long term expectations of that wall.
I can't help much with strategy because I would be more inclined to present him the entire list at once, but I understand where you are coming from.
I would say the roof flashing is much higher priority than the foundation right now
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I would say the roof flashing is much higher priority than the foundation right now
The contractor is moving pretty quickly on the items I've given him. If his rate keeps up, we'll be on flashing by the end of the week.
"I would say the roof flashing is much higher priority than the foundation right now"Before talking about the seeping basement, I thought it would be worthwhile to show the result of taking Piffin's advice. The photo shows that the roof now has flashing, although the quality of the job still looks questionable. At least the bleeding has been stopped...right?Also, I've had a question about the j-channel placed on the stoop just underneath, between the siding and the concrete: is this going to hold water and will this make a problem? The photo shows how water just sits in the J.Now on to the burbling basement. We've had a long and steady rain, and I heard a burbling noise when I went into the new part of the basement. Turns out it was water was seeping through as shown in the photo. Sparkles are water reflecting the flash. Actually, the burbling noise was coming from higher up, probably seeping through the concrete above the waterproofing, which only comes up to about 2 feet below ground level. My guess is that water comes in up there, then drops down and seeps in a little over a foot above the basement floor.Also took a video, and would like to post it but it is nearly 5MB. Ordered some video editing software and will try to shrink it down to a postable size.Called the contractor after taking the photo and video and he came right over. Right away, he agreed to dig out around the foundation by 2' and extend the waterproofing above ground level, and also increase the grade going away from the house for about 10'. He also explained what he filled in with: 2' of gravel at the bottom, clean landfill from there up to about 2' below the surface, and our own soil from there up to the top. We suspect that the problem was being aggravated by two factors: The gutter drain was pouring water at a corner about 14' away, and the newly installed sump pump's exit pipe only extended about 8 inches out from the side of the house and is located about 10' away. Given the saturated soil, we're guessing that the water came in through a low spot of the waterproofing, probably right above where it is burbling through.Contractor also offered to run a pipe for the sump pump to get it away from the house, although we still have to work out the details of exactly where it will go. As for the downspout, I already added a 5' extention to the gutter drain, which should put any returning water under the waterproofing line.So this event has gotten the contractor to take action on a punch list item that I thought might cause him to walk. The way he explained it, it may be that what he is offering to do is all that needs to be done. Any comments?We're not out of the woods yet by a long shot, but it looks like we're making progress.
Dave,
It's hard to tell from your first picture just how much flashing was done.
The J channel comes down onto the shingles and from the photo the step flashing is not visible. He did remove the J and free up the siding in order to flash the wall /roof juncture did he not?
Good luck with the leakage in the basement too. I thought in following your threads that his shoe leather would have hit the pavement by now.
Perhaps he has more ethics than talent.
Best wishes, Walter
"Perhaps he has more ethics than talent."The guy's not all bad. It seems more likely that he hasn't kept up on the profession and is working off a playbook that is several decades old, not up to new standards, and unaware of issues having to do with new materials (such as nail-eating pressure treated lumber -- we haven't even touched THAT issue yet).A tell-tale sign: his wife handles the computer work for him. In other words, he doesn't have access to Breaktime for starters. He's out of the loop in a fast-changing world.
Also, I forget - it's been a while, but I thinkk I asked whether those holes in the wall I see were exploratory by you or an inspector and what was discovered... Is is solid core filled? Did water come out? or am I only imagining that the holes show powder under them fesh drilling dust?
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How hard of a freeze have you had that far south anyways?
People from Florida always say that they can't stand how cold it is here ;^)
It tends to be pretty mild; never an entire week that doesn't get above freezing. It can have cold spells, though, with temperatures dipping into the single digits. We had one 30" snowstorm in the past 14 years.
or more likely, several freeze/thaw cycles. That does more damage than one hard freeze all winter.
Yup. On a daily basis.
Edited 2/11/2008 8:19 am ET by DelawareDave61
It almost looks like there are some freshly drilled holes in that wall. Did you have somebody do that testing for water of feeling for whether the cores were filled or full of ice? If so what found?
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It almost looks like there are some freshly drilled holes in that wall. Did you have somebody do that testing for water of feeling for whether the cores were filled or full of ice? If so what found?
Those holes are from the mold for pouring the concrete for the stairs.
Should I add some holes myself to reduce the damage, or would that place liability for the walls on me? Should I have the contractor do it instead? Right away or can it wait, or is it already too late?
Or are you saying that I should have someone come out and do some kind of test? If so, what kind of person and how could I find them?
Thank you!
OK, I see that answer. I thought the wall was block and not formed. If it was a poured wall with forms, then you probably have honeycomb voids at the exterior face of the wall surface. Digging is the only way to know what the deal is there.
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I thought the wall was block and not formed
Your first impression was right: the wall is block; only the stairs themselves, the base, and the basement floor are poured.
Why did you use block instead of a poured wall?
I am going to guess it is geographic location. When you get that far south and on down to the far end of Florida, it is mostly block and the only guys who have forms do expensive commercial work.It is almost the other way around up here. All the good masons do chimneys and fireplaces or fancy rock work, so if I want a small block job, I lay it myself or have to pay fireplace/chimney rates for simple block walls. But there are a lot of guys who call themselvs concrete contractors.
;)
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Why did you use block instead of a poured wall?
It was the contractor's recommendation. I don't know if it's relevant, but the existing basement is also block.
Thanks Dave. I wasn't aware that block was used so much down your way.
Here it's almost all poured walls with ICF gaining in popularity.
Walter
I've had 2 houses with basements in clay soil
My conclusion in all this was that I did all that I could reasonably do and that I would have to live with some seepage. One of the basements I finished. The wall construction was as follows: plastic; then furring strips; then treated 2x4's shimmed level.
If you have standing water, that's another story, then you need some other remediation (e.g. interior perimiter drain and sump pump)
Regards,
Roger
With respect..... absolute rubbish!
There is no reason to accept water in the basement. There are products and techniques that will give you a dry foundation.
I would no more accept a wet foundation than a leaky roof.
"I did all that I could reasonably do and that I would have to live with some seepage."You are a good guy, but I don't accept that.
All we have here are clay soils and even some springs running right in the path of my projects.
When I moved here I was working for a local builder who had the attitude that "Hey, this is Maine, the ground is wet, basements leak, there is nothing you can do to change that or the fact that the sun comes up in the east"I never accepted that either. I especially thought it was poor practice to say it when the customer has 18" of water in his basement...since '91 when I started running my own show, none of my projects have shown water intrusion yet.whjat you described has the basics down right, but there must have been something amiss slightly with the application of the theory. Back to calls with you for a refresher course!;)
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The other two are absolutely right.
Here in NW Oh we have serious clay. On my home there are no gutters. Built on a hillside so there's good drain down the slope. But keep in mind I am not at the highest point on the hill, there's plenty of grade higher than this house-the water passes on the way to the river.
Proper detailing of drain tile and water proofing will keep the basement dry. If you don't have gravity to run to daylight, then a well placed sump will carry away the water. With the technology of even the 80's there's no reason a good application won't leave you with a dry (not damp) basement.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
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I've had 2 houses with basements in clay soil
both were sealed (one with hot tar and felt paper and the other (current one) with spray in rubber)
both had french drains at the footer level that drained out to grade
both were backfilled with gravel
both showed some seepage as you showed (probably your seepage is a bit more than mine, but not much more)
My conclusion in all this was that I did all that I could reasonably do and that I would have to live with some seepage.
I noticed that the ground was poorly graded outside one of the seepage areas and another seepage area had a drain spout right next to it. A regrading and a 10' downspout extension should help a lot.
These are relatively easy fixes and I'm going to see how much they improve the situation before we dig out all of the clay down to the gravel level.
The tar waterproofing definitely didn't come up high enough though. I can tell exactly where it stops by a horizantal seepage line. Gotta be fixed.
Perhaps someone will be taking Piffen's offer of a shovel after all. ;)
The white powder you observed is probably efflurescence. The water carries dissolved salts to the surface and abandons them when it evaporates.
There is absolutely no way you should have to accept in any way shape or form water in a new foundation. Make him solve it!
There is absolutely no way you should have to accept in any way shape or form water in a new foundation. Make him solve it!
From the contractor's standpoint, he has way more fixes to make than the remaining balance due on the project will justify. Unless his is driven by pride in the quality of his work rather than money, I expect him to bolt when we start talking about the big ticket repairs.
The question is: Then what? I don't want to wait for the wheels of the court to turn, so I will probably have to solve the problem on my own and then seek damages.
I'm thinking about starting with low-cost fixes, such as regrading and drainspout extensions to staunch the bleeding, and then pursue him for a longer-term repair.
This is all new territory for me. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Dave,
I think you've held up well on these issues. Your idea to try the smaller, less costly items first is admirable.
I hope they work out and I hope this guy does have the pride to see it through with you.
Walter
Your idea to try the smaller, less costly items first is admirable.
Just trying to hold the fort together while waiting for the big issues to work out...
back about '81 I was in a similar position where I had gone out of business after doing a lot of small jobs with employees and poor surpervision skills on my part. I spent over half a year working every friday and Saturdays fixing and finishing what had been done wrong or left undone.With the exception of the cost of the flooring, it seems that a lot of what problems you have could be fixed with mostly labor cost and little materials dollars, so he could conceivably do this right and not end up broke. Since he used illegals for much of it, he probably bankrolled a pretty penny already by paying under the table at cut rate costs. I notice he can afford a vacation.
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