Hello,
I am planning second floor addition to my house located in DC metro area of Maryland. Plans drawn by architect with some nice features – Marvin aluminum clad windows, Warmboard radiant floor heat, Bamboo floors (expanding existing bamboo).
I’ve received estimate from general contractor who is a friend and has given sound advice during the design phase and has done work previously on the house. Generally, I do trust him but I also feel like he is asking a lot for the materials and work he’s performing and I’m interested in some objective advice.
The house is a 1930’s era cottage that has been converted to full time living. Four years ago this contractor enclosed a screened porch and we installed bamboo floors in the main living area as part of the project. He proposes to cover the floor with 1/4″ luan underlayment to protect it but he states in his proposal that he will not be responsible for any damage or repair during the second floor addition. He also has stated that he will take precautions against weather related damage while the roof is open but that he will not be liable for any damage or repair if it does occur. I’ve done some pretty nice custom beam wraps and other wood trim that would be expensive to replace, not to mention the floors if there was serious damage. Are these kinds of disclaimers standard or should I insist on coverage. It seems to me lie he is trying to shift burden for any mishaps to me. I can understand the weather issue but not accepting responsibility for damage by his people doesn’t seem right. Other contractors have told us that they have insurance for these kinds of issues.
His proposal lists a bottom line fixed price which includes allowances for some fixtures and items which are difficult to price upfront. I had initially requested a breakout of sub-contractor prices and would like to know if that’s a reasonable request.
Any comments welcome,
tmowry
Replies
He should take responsibility for all potntiasl damages, to the floor, the open roof, everything. There are ways to protect the house and its contents.
Why do you want a breakout by sub? How much detail are you rasking for? I always try to show several catagories. One, it helps in progress billing. Two, it makes adds/deletes/changes easier to explain. If you think you're going to ask him to exclude some portion because it looks too high, that could be a problem.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You won't get a breakdown like that from me--you'll get exactly what you got, a bottom line and allowances for any unknowns or unselected items.
I cannot expect that you know enough about the remodeling business to determine whether the costs detailed in a 'breakdown' are reasonable. However, I can expect that you are able to do what you do with every other buying decision you make--decide whether the product is worth the money.
Lots of people seem to think that they need a breakdown in order to decide whether to hire a contractor. I guess the lousy image our business has is to blame for that. A lot of people also seem to think that getting three bids is the way to go. I try not to work for people in either category. So far so good.
I agree with you somewhat. I went to see a lady about doing some repairs, replacing rotted trim, etc. During the course of the conversation and walk-through, she commented that i was the sixth contractor she had talked with. I called back the next day and told her I wasn't interested ... no discussion, no reason, just no thanks.
I don't mind breaking down the proposal into manageable pieces. The concern i have with tmowry, lacking an explanation, is that, for example, he will decide the electrical is too high and he has a cousin that can do it cheaper. Big red flag.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Thanks for input. I don't have a cousin in the electrical business.
The price came in over my budget and I am looking for areas to substitue/cut to bring things back where I can afford. I spec'ed aluminum half round gutters and he tells me that they are more than twice the cost of K-style. I used half round on the porch enclosure (I acted as general on porch enclosure) and the cost was not more than double. I'd like to see what I'm paying for gutters. I actually spec'd and got the window package quoted and he tells me he's marking that up 20%. I don't really feel like he's earned that money but that's another argument. I spec'd a small back desk and he says it came in really high because I asked him to price an Ipe top. How high is high.
As part of the earlier porch enclosure we gutted the main living space and insulated, re-dry walled etc. I made and installed custom trim for the windows and baseboards which I have told him I will supply for the second floor as well. The finish carpentry is done to a high level of quality. I make a lot of high end custom furniture (http://www.timothymowry.com) and my contractor has said outloud that he is concerned about working to my standards. In fact he has refused to install the custom made stair railing I'm providing for that reason. I don't plan to follow him around the house inspecting every joint but I do want the work done right. There's a lot of crap going up in this area. I suggested to him at one point that I would trim out the addition if he's uncomfortable and I would like to see what he has allowed for finish carpentry because I may take that work back to cut costs.
Speaking of substitutions we really love the Marvin windows. The finish level is amazing. I have talked with several people who swear by them. They are expensive but I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. For the porch enclosure we used Vetter and we're not that impressed. The contractor mentioned a Pella salesman had looked at our package and thought it might be significantly less. I saw a thread on this site where someone said they'd made a mistake in selecting Pella. An acquaintence in New York also was un happy with Pella's he selected. Any thoughts or sugestions of other manufacturers to consider (btw - I thought Jeld-Wen's were poorly finished)? The first floor windows are trimmed out with a 3 1/2" flat casing and a traditional sill. We want to keep the same look. The first floor windows are trimmed in painted wood but we want to go with clad on the second floor.
"I actually spec'd and got the window package quoted and he tells me he's marking that up 20%. I don't really feel like he's earned that money but that's another argument. "
Well, then buy the windows directly, and when there's a warranty issue, pay him to come fix it. When a window comes in wrong, pay him to temporarily board up the opening, return to install the correct window and patch in the trim and drywall. When the screens are missing from the order, or don't fit, or are the wrong color, be sure he gets paid to come back when the right ones come in.
This thread is starting to get a little fishy....
Bob
tmowry... i've read your responces... my read is you want what you want and you want your friend to pay for it..
he makes a living doing what he does.. yet you expect him to reveal how he makes that living and make a contribution to the enjoyment of your home for the next 20 years
frankly.. the markups he is discussing with you would not keep me in business
i think you have unreasonable expectations.. especially in the market area you happen to live inMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I hear what you're saying. I guess I feel like I've earned some savings because I've saved him some time. Maybe I'm getting it already. I've not requested that he forfeit the 20% by the way.
He's my friend and I think we will stay friends because we are up front with each other but he woundn't hesitate for a second to charge me for any work he did if I called with a window warranty issue in two years.
thanks for your comments.
I'm goign to change my position on this discussion. Normally, I try very hard to do whatever the client asks for, like giving a breakdown on the proposal. But I think you are going to be a difficult client to work for, and you have said a couple of things that raise red flags.
areas to substitue/cut to bring things back where I can afford Explain that to the contractor, and ask for input. But you need to be open with him as to the budget issue.
he's marking that up 20%. I don't really feel like he's earned that money But he will earn it. Just because you researched the product and got a quote from the vendor, who do you think is going to make the trips to the warehouse to pick them up, hassel with getting the openings ready, deal with warranty issues, etc.
I asked him to price an Ipe top. How high is high. Ask him to give an alternate price for installing another product.
I would like to see what he has allowed for finish carpentry because I may take that work back to cut costs. This is a prime example of cherry picking a proposal. It's probably time for you to re-write the scope of work, and ask him to re-bid. Leave out things that you want to do yourself. Don't make it a "maybe" thing.
It's going to take a special type of contractor to work with you. Good luck.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Like David - If I am working on a cost plus contract, I will show the breakdown, but with a bottom line seet price, the specific individual costs are none of your business. All you need to know is how good, how long, and how much.
The protection issue is a tougher call.
I wouldn't recommend working him at all if he has no liability insurance, but the costs for that have gone sky high in some places the past couple of years. So I can imagine that he might have increased his deductable to five grand to keep his costs ( and yours, indirectly) lower. There are also certain kinds of contract languaage being "requested" by underwriters nowdays. I have not had that sort of audit, but have been informed that I am open for it upon request.
bottom line is that if this is a deal breaker in your mind, the customer is always right. The other hard paert of this scenario is that you consider him a friend. Friendships have been broken by business deals. It is worth measuring the extent of your firenship and balance the worth of that relationship against the job.
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A bit of a side thread, but since you mentioned it...
Our GC protected the new wood floor with plastic (a type I've not seen before, specifically for this purpose), then Ram Board - a heavy cardboard - over the entire floor. He then put down tempered hardboard in high traffic areas, or where things were likely to be dropped. Did the job! Just for perspective...
Thanks,
Could you ask your GC what that plastic is?
I think your contractor friend sounds professional and reasonable. I agree the break-out is none of your business.
I suggest you do some more research into how Marvin windows left lots of customers hanging out to dry when the preservative in their windows was bad. There was a letter to the editor in Fine Homebuilding documenting this several years ago. I've heard complaints on the service of Pella windows. My sixteen-year-old house had some rotted Jeld-Wen windows. Even though I'm not the original buyer, Jeld-Wen sent me six replacements for about $900.00 with shipping. And threw in some replacement crank hardware for no charge. I expected them to tel me to screw myself and was very pleasantly surprised to be wrong.
A few years ago I was involved in a Marvin service issue like that. Another contractor had installed Marvins in about '90 and the sash rotted in the lower corners. He refused to come back and deal with it, so the owner had us do it as part of a larger remodel. Marvin sent out the rep to measure all of the affected sash and sent replacements, and we changed them out. IIRC this was an issue having to do with pre-primed/pre-painted windows that had Kinar paint on them. Something about the paint accelerated the decay.