A combination of a conversation with Blue Eyed Devil, Bill Hartman, and—believe it or not—something I saw on This Old House—-along with the memory of a previous experience———- got me to thinking
in order to evaluate an opportunity, I need some advise outside my area of experience.
Subcontracors—- exactly how do you market/sell your services to Homebuilders?
Homebuilders——- what are you looking for when considering a sub?
Brief background—— for 18 plus years I have concentrated on retailing my services directly to VERY local homeowners( say within a 12 block radius). My prime concern in that has been to maximize my free time to spend with my family, coach baseball, basketball, travel the country going to my sons cross country races etc.— while earning a modestly comfortable living.
As my sons are now nearly grown and out of the house—-
limiting my work to about 1000 hours a year— ( empty nest syndrome)now gives me too MUCH free time. I would like to put some of that extra time to productive use. I could simply do MORE of what I am already doing—- but frankly there would be no challenge in that.
the money isn’t really a consideration—other than as a tool to keep score. We are pretty comfortable as is—and would actually look at setting up a scholarship with any additional money.
So—- how do I use up my “excess capacity”?
Stephen
Replies
Good for you Stephen! It's nice to see/hear a success story, especially when you've been able to balance a career with a growing family.
Our methods of marketing to homebuilders has been non-existent for the most part becuase we were dealing almost exclusively with builders. Our efforts were limited to walking up and asking for the order, when we saw a basement being dug. Sometimes the builders would walk up to us when we were framing a house.
Both of those efforts might result in being busy for two or three or maybe twenty years! Be careful of what you wish for LOL!
My suggestion would be to market to homebuilders that are building their own. You will have to do some marketing and you might have holes in your schedule depending on how agressive your campaign is, but it sounds like a better fit for you. I can't really tell you how to do that because I've never done much of it. Probably, the things you are doing now are similar to what you need to do.
One thing that we will be doing (I'm supposed to be writing/desinging the letter right now) is to send out a flyer/letter (direct mail) to every person that we know, informing them of our change in business. You will benefit largely from your vast network of customers by doing this. Of course, you will have to be careful to explain that your new service is an additional service to the one you have been providing for so long.
I know you'll be successful at whatever you endeavor.
blue
blue,
marketing to homeowners building their own------- has it's attractions. I think they are going to share many of the same characteristics as my existing customers-------- and I do well selling to THEM
but-- it would also be largely more of the same in a lot of ways--- limmited repeat business, unknowledgeable customer base, un-organised customerbase, difficult to even locate customer base............
I suspect I am just being lazy. In addition to my current work I would like to put some effort into " selling" to some builders that may generate 5-10 additional roofs a year. 15-20 additional roofs would absorb my" excess capacity" as currently configured--- more than adequately. while NEW difficulties are certain to arise------ those would be 15-20 projects without my biggest current risk ---which is day after day tearing the roof off of existing, OCCUPIED houses.
Selling to experienced builders is, I suspect, an entirely different ball game than the one I am currently playing. I would like a better command of the rules and traditions before I commit to stepping up to the plate.
Stephen
Haz, for some reason, I wasn't thinking that you wanted more roofing.
Getting new work from builders is extremely ez. Find a frame going up and ask the trailer boss if you can roof it. He'll say yes, but I doubt that you will want to do the job when you find out the rates.
blue
blue,
in 2005 I had a comfortable year with 449.25 hours roofing,256 hours carpentry,298.25 hours overhead.
with my kids finishing school-- I have plenty of time on my hands----and I can still expand my carpentry hours while adding some roofing.
I know the rates are low---like $40/squareish---------- money isn't really a concern.
but for that rate I am not looking for mcmansions-- I think I am looking for low end Ryan homes--less cut up, closer to walkable( 8/12)
unfortuneately this is 2006, not 1976--0r 1986 when those things were more available.
I think maybe a winters worth of glucosamine/chondroitin has addled my perspective---- but I haven't felt this eager in years.
Stephen
Stephen,
Did you ever own a gold GMC pickup from the early 70's? I had a dream last night that I bought that truck from you.
The funny thing was I didn't know what you looked like, so you just had a blank white face. In the dream, my girlfriend asked me why you didn't have a face, and I replied matter of factly, "Because I don't know what he looks like."
The other thing was you lectured me about why I should carry a small notebook in my shirt pocket. It was funny.
DustinMy milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
Nah, Dustin--- I have never owned a gold pickup truck
but coicidentally I did dream about YOUR girlfriend last night. LOL
All in good fun Dustin, all in good clean fun.
glad somebody was thinkin of me.
Best wishes, Stephen
Blue,
Yesterday I had cause to think long and hard about many of the things you have said here on Breaktime over the years.
Background-------
several weeks ago I notice a new house built with bare osb roof decking poking up above the soundwall as I drive down the Xway ( soundwalls--- the latest nightmare being foisted upon the city landscape)
anyway---at the time I don't hink anything about it other than it has snow on it.
Last week on Weds. My wife and I drive past the same house, still un-roofed----- on our way to sign some notarized papers at a realtors office. I don't think anything about it other than" that house STILL isn't roofed"
this Tuesday my wife and I have to drive back to the realtors office to RE sign( my signiture---and the notaries had been dated the 15th, my wifes the 16th--- REJECTED)
anyhow the house STILL not roofed( this is at least 3 weeks now)
Yesterday I drive over. House is framed, doors installed, windows installed, drywall delivered( but not hung)------ still not roofed.
Skid of shingles piled in yard about as far from the house imagineable and still on same lot---- gauranteeing maximum possible slog through mud.
now---the way my mind works--- I think, " here is a guy with a problem and I am in the problem solving business"
but then Blues voice comes into play-----and I start thinking " there is a REASON this guy has a problem"
I have been looking at a lot of local builders web sites lately and it seems like they ALL mention somewhere about the " Beauty of handcraftsmanship produced by their skilled artisans" blah blah blah.
And I am thinking " blue seems to indicate half these guys break ground on a new house and they STILL don't know who is gonna frame it------- hand craftsmanship, skilled artisans my rear end. LOL
clearly I don't understand the thought processes in play with these guys. Beautifull sunny day--mid 40's--- gravel drive right up to the house. for about $40 I would have had those shingles roof top delivered and would have installed in about a day and a half.
I don't understand the concept of saving the $40 roof top delivery charge--- but costing yourself many times that in delays
BTW---- this was the LAST house in a very modest developement---- you would think by the last house these folks would have their system down pat ?
makes me wonder about the guys I hear saying " I am booked 6 months out, builders wait for me 'cause my quality is so high and I get the detais right"---- now I am wondering " maybe the builder is waiting on you'cause you have the lowest price and you don't know it----and the builder doesn't really Know what that's costing him either"
that house I looked at? I wonder how much the $40 roof top delivery charge the builder saved is gonna ultimately cost him in drywall cracks 6-8 months from now ? Why not at least have had the framer felt it in ?
I don't understand the concepts in play here---- but clearly you are right---- it's not a business ,is it ?
Stephen
Stephen,
It looks like you may have already answered some of your own questions. It's February and some places are fairly slow. A pile of shingles sitting somewhere for three weeks is a sign. Not that it's busy, but that something is wrong, very wrong.
It may be a sign that he has a roofer so good he waits for him, but the fact that the drywall has been delivered already would point away from that.
In another thread, I told a story about my encounter with a builder who only paid $2.50 a sqft to frame and was willing to wait until someone came along and did it for that. He is not representitive of all new construction builders, but he isn't overly rare either. I wasted a few good years chasing that kind of work. It makes me wish Guys Like Jerrald, Mike Smith, Bob and yourself had come up on my radar screen long ago.
On the other hand, I have a good friend who is a trimmer. He is a very expensive trimmer. He keeps a client list four builders long withthe occasional fill in job.
What he has done is find the few builders in his area who need, want and are willing to pay for quality work. He's working on 6000- 10,000 sqft houses in very upscale areas. He's a known quantity to those builders and they are loyal to him. They are loyal for the most part to all of their subs.
I have in the past done some work for a few of them. The question was never " How Much" but rather, "This is what I need done and this is my quality level. How long will you need and what will you charge so I can budget and mark up accordingly".
Based on what you have written here and in other threads, I think you would do well to look for that kind of work. It may take a while but if you keep your name out there, one will call eventually and once that happens, you can be sure he has friends who think somewhat along those lines.
By the way, the friend I spoke of earlier, He programs about eight houses a year into his schedule. The rest of his time he fills with fishing and building entertainment centers or book cases. He bills enough not to feel the pressure of a few weeks off.
re your last post ...
now you're starting to look at the new const stuff the way I do.
now that remodeling people have all their ducks lined up ....
but new const always seems to be a mad rush to go no where.
at least with the roofing you won't be working on top of plumbers/electricians and hvac guys that weren't called in till the last minute too. Plus ... the drywall guys that never seem to have a broom or a trash can won't leave too much dust up there either.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
the drywall guys that never seem to have a broom or a trash can won't leave too much dust up there either.
And they like to crap in empty mud buckets, then leave them with all the other mud buckets.My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
Stephen, over the years, I've run into three kinds of builders.
Theres the normal builders. The do things at a normal pace. They get three bids and take the middle. They develop relationships and they have a stable group of subs.
Then you have the fast pushy ones. They'll schedule everything so tight that the roofers will be showing up when you are hooking the trusses. If you don't keep to a very tight, impossible schedule, the builder will never use your services again.
The last group are the unorganized ones. Everything is a problem. They always schedule the trades late. They use the cheapest trades and never give a thought to quality or service. If they can save $100 on a 20k frame, they'd toss out their own brother even if he was ace carpenter of the year. With those types of builders, it's not uncommon to see a house idle for weeks at a time, at any stage.
Around here, a lot of the larger roofing contractors will sub out the labor to independents like yourself. So, it's quite possible that the roofing contractor thought his subs would be there to receive the shingles but they had too much to drink the night before and blew them off. Then, because he's pizzed, he fires the labor crew and now is stuck waiting for some other scabby outfit that will hump the shingles up there after hitting the bong in the morning.
I'm not kidding one bit about any of the above.
Call the biggest roofing contractor in your area and I'd bet that they be glad to let you take a job or two on a subcontract agreement for new or used work. They would love you because you would do what you say. Even if you told them that you would only work alone and wanted to only do mansions, they'd probably have a builder that would love you.
I think painters are even worse...so maybe you might bone up on your painting skills to keep busy.
blue
Blue,
I very much appreciate advice from people who know more about this type of thing than I do------- so among others I am gratefull for pointers from folks like You, and Schelling and Robert.
all the MORe gratefull, since you are sharp enough to tell me things most people wouldn't want to hear.
to clarify-- I have zero interest in working on any 10,000 sq, ft. houses, mansions, mcmansions etc.--- actually those would be the opposite of what I am thinking about.
If you look in the Photo Gallery---- Matt in Raleigh, North Carolina has a thread titled " City Houses"
what I am interested in is termed" in-fill" ? or re-developement. Here there will be some sort of government entity or Non-profit corp. handling the over-all project, they will have contractors building the actual houses----------- After idetifying those contractors---- I am interested in specifically how to pitch to THOSE contractors for THOSE projects.
thanks again for all your help,
Stephen
what I am interested in is termed" in-fill" ? or re-developement. Here there will be some sort of government entity or Non-profit corp. handling the over-all project, they will have contractors building the actual houses----------- After idetifying those contractors---- I am interested in specifically how to pitch to THOSE contractors for THOSE projects.
Stephen,
Based on the fact that you are being honest with your intentions and are not looking to work solely to profit, have you considered contacting Habitat for Humanity? I bet if you ask them they will be able to tell you who is doing the kind of work you are looking for in your area.
That seems to be a small community believe it or not and I bet they know who or what Non-Profit is running jobs in their area.
AT your age to be able to think like that, you just may be the most succesful person here. you can do somethng you enjoy and not worry about every penny and give something back all at once! Thats an accomplishment.
robert,
financially--- I have every confidence that there are many,many,many MANY guys reading here that can buy and sell me all day long out of their spare pocket change. LOL
RE : HFH,
It has been some years since I worked for them---- in fact I did some projects for them as a volunteer---and some projects they contracted out to me as they felt the roofs were too dangerous for volunteers.
overall--- the experience was lukewarm. I found the in-efficiency of a typical HFH project frustrating
Perhaps as I am a bit older now I would be more willing to go with the flow.
( I also found the seemingly incessant praying to be irritating----and they are apparently less interested in working with you when the find that you aren't a christian. LOL)
But ---perhaps times have changed---and I suspect the world involving that sort of work is a small network---- thanks for the idea.
Stephen
As a builder I look for subs that are in market price range and if gthere are no real problems...I stick with them. If it is not broke, why fix it.
That said, I do take information on subs who soliciate my business. I am typically looking for:
An established and experienced company with good references.
A company with good communications / office or home office / answers the office and mobile numbers and or returns calls / fax machine / email / general liability insurance / no downpayment or start up money / written and detailed proposals and invoices.
Phone calls are a poor way to soliciate busy builders, except when you have pre-sent introductory information. I appreciate introductory information, with good contact info followed by a phone call. List the qualifications you have according to the prefered list above, along with a detailed summary of your offerings.
I have a Rolodex with phase headings. ie plumbers, framers, painters, electricians. If I received your information via letter or fax as detailed above, I would expect a follow up call from you, and I would add your name to the Rolodex. Who knows, I may call you the next day or week.
I'm glad to hear Tex has a more sophisticated selection process for subs....when I recently branched out into new construction for homebuilders, all they asked me was, "Liability and WC?" No experience necessary LOL!
However, I was recently offered a contract to roof all of one builder's new homes through the framer I used to work for...He knew I did good work and he was having problems with the current roofers making his framing look bad (it's pretty good, actually, just the roofers didn't have a clue).
My point being, if you know other subs (whether in your field or not) that know the kind of work you do, maybe you can get them to put in a good word for you with the builders they sub for. It's a lot less time-consuming (and less expensive) than having to go to each potential builder personally.
In any event, good luck Steve, I know you know your stuff and it won't take long for those builders to realize that. In the short time I've been involved solely in new construction, while it does have its aggravation, it's no where near as involved as working for individual HO's. I don't regret it a bit, and overall for me (as a framer) the money is as good or better--not to mention job security!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Jason,
one of my difficulties is that I have virtually zero contacts within the new construction market.--- that's a by-product of 18 years work concentrating on one older neighborhood . I am pretty well known within that neighborhood---but almost unknown outside of it. I rarely if ever interact with other trades, professionally or socially.
I have lived here all my life--- but in effect--- if I proceed with this it will be as if I just moved here from out of town.
I suspect I may go visit some new allotments today---- if only to write down some names of builders building houses I would BE interested in roofing( Seperate list for the ones I am NOT interested in LOL)
this will be different---- in general my customers ask ME to take on a project-------- not so much me asking THEM LOL, (gonna have to keep that ego in check).
thanks, Stephen
Stephen,
I get subs stopping by job sites all the time,most of the time I use the same subs over and over again. Every now and then some body can't make it when I'll need them and that's when I try out new subs. If they work out I try to use them more often and establish a relationship with them.Price is important but so is workmanship and profesionalism.You have all those things, get out there. Vince Carbone
thank you Vince
I remember you very well from meeting you at Calvins back in august.
If I can develope a working situation with a few contractors like yourself I will consider myself truly privileged.
Stephen
Stephen,
Help me out with something. The short of it is, I'm baffled. Here's the guy who I've admired for some time as someone who took a trade that is one of the most likely to be ruled by the SF price and proved that, through marketing and other disciplines, you could double or triple the "going" rate.
Just recently, I read that you were thinking of volunteering at the soup kitchen or something like that when you were too old to roof but too young to retire.
Now I understand that you want to roof walkable tract homes? Installing 25 year dimensional shingles with no drip edge and 90 felt for valleys just doesn't seem to be your style.
Why not volunteer at that soup kitchen or do something else challenging?
Of course, you don't have to justify your actions to me but I'm genuinely stumped. Maybe I just don't understand what drives a guy like you.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I agree with Jon Blakemore, Stephen.
Your greatest talent is not roofing. It is in creating a small business that is profitable and that serves its owner. This combination is very rare.
A suitable challenge for you would be to teach other people how to do this. I don't know how you could make money from this but I do know that it is a service that is sorely needed by millions of small businesses. All you need is to find a few that want to hire you.
It is great to hear that you are in a position that you can explore new opportunities whatever they may be. Good luck.
Jon, and Schelling
in all fairness-- I didn't give enough detail to fully explain
and the detail that I did give was un-intentionally mis leading.
My families needs are pretty modest---and well prioritized----- financially I already have a comfortable model going
but----as my sons are just about grown, and moving out( off to college)
I now have WAY too much free time --- more than a 43 year old SHOULD have.
in the past I have done the habitat for humanity thing, and the volunteering at the foodbank thing
and what I have learned---suprisingly-- is that it is ironically more difficult to give away your time and effort in a way you might individually find meaningfull.
A lot of 65plus year old guys know this---- I have been extremely lucky to learn this so young.
It IS however quite easy to give away money in meaningfull ways. My family and I have 2 areas under consideration.
Now----- I could concentrate on simply doing MORE of what I am already doing----- but I am not that interested in that
or
specifically
in my city there are at least 2 and possibly 3 non profit corporations doing re-developement work----- that is some pretty gastly places get leveled, non profit gets the land from the city and builds basic 2 story houses which are sold to low income/middle income homebuyers. the houses are actually nothingspecial---basically even more modest versions of those '70's era Ryan homes. 2 story vinyl sided "colonial" box with attached garage.
the roofing work is about as basic as humanly imagineable--- I know full well the rates payable are WAAAAAAYYYYY below what I can earn elswhere. My family will be pretty much giving the proceeds away anyhow( Just to p.o Bill we will figure out how to do it as advertising or something--- the school we would like to set up the scholarship with will figure out how( lots of alumni lawyers)
I might be able to give some local kids entry into the trades, without a terribly long term commitment and I will be able to benefit 2 efforts I am interested in while practising the humbler aspects of my trade---while I am still able to.
I still haven't given you all the details and reasoning, and I previously held back this much because If I was to explain the entire reasoning I would absolutely, certainly un-intentionally offend most of the guys reading here.
I don't know how much of this will come to pass----- and what does--will almost certainly be different than what's currently envisioned. But I do know that I absolutely have the time to devote to this---- what remains is to see if I have the smarts to put it together
Warning--- " touchy" content ahead
I apologise if any of the above came across as self-congratulatory or smug. Not my intent. In reality our means are quite modest--- most likely our level of consumption is well below what most of the employers here on this forum are able to live at.
even THAT level makes my sons uneasy as being un-needed--- I attribute that to the example set by my catholic school teacher wife.
Jon/schelling-- just trying to fill up some of my time in a way that benefits more people than just Stephen,Janet, Kevin and Andrew------- and to make possible for others what circumstances made possible for us.
Best wishes, Stephen
Edited 2/22/2006 8:30 am ET by Hazlett
Edited 2/22/2006 8:33 am ET by Hazlett
Don't worry about being smug or self-congratulatory. One of the things that makes your posts so worthwhile to read is your modesty. You don't pretend to be anything but a simple roofer who has, through a lot of trial and error, found a simple business model that works. It gives you an adequate income and time to spend with your family and community. It also creates satisfied customers with a reservoir of goodwill for you.
Anybody in this business knows that this in not the norm. You have passed on some of your secrets to us and for this we thank you. There are a lot of other folks out there who can use your help too. I am just telling you not to sell yourself short, whether you use your talents for personal gain or in service to your fellow man. Your reward will be great in either case. Some of your ideas sound great and I wish you much luck. --------Schell
"Subcontracors---- exactly how do you market/sell your services to Homebuilders?"
I was all set to answer ... till I read closer.
I don't market myself to homebuilders ...
as it has never worked out.
They're too damn cheap.
everyone talks a good "quality" game ... no one wants to pay for it.
I have worked for a coupla builders ... doing installs for K and B places I've subed for. Kinda sub'd for the sub. Each and every time ... I had to tell the builder I don't care when he promised the new owners the kitchen would be done and they could move in ... 5 days takes 5 and 10 days takes 10. If I said 5 days before I started ... it's still 5 days. Each and every time what ever deal the two had worked out left the K and B place paying me more for the install than they charged ... and way more than the builder wanted to pay.
New construction ... the money just isn't there.
plus .. they're gonna schedule you to roof that new house same day the foundation guys are set to start digging!
Good Luck.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa