My son is looking at houses in the Greenville S Carolina area. . We looked at a house with a realtor.
3400 ft2, 1 acre lot, 2 story brick , hardwood floors, new roof. Overall in great condition. 20 years old. original hw floors no cupping evidence.
On a 1acre lot. The back yard slopes toward the house. sides and front slope away from the house. Back yard has a soil berm behind the house with a hot tub and deck on it. whole yard is red clay (with grass of course)
before leaving we opened the crawl space door and saw a 1ft diameter sump pit just inside with an ACE sump pump that looked kinda new. There was also a 1 inch PVC line near the sump and when we moved it about 1 gallon of water came out.
we asked the realtor to find out what was the reason for having the sump pump. I also asked a termite/moisture man and he said the presence of the sump pump itself was not a “deal breaker” but i needed to find out what is or was going on.
Well my son’s realtor realtor says the other realtor and the seller will not discuss it since whatever the problem was, it has been fixed, therefore they are not required to disclose about it. only thing they will disclose is:
loose pvc line is from a/c condensate (whats that doing draining under the house????) they lived there 4 years then put in the sump pump 2 or 3 years ago, and the berm behind the house was to help control water.
i told my son its probably a deal breaker unless the guy tells you in writing what the problem was (would you trust his word relayed through two realtors??).
Was it gross mold noticed by the termite man? was it a foundation settling that had to be jacked up? was it something else?
I think the guy is making it worse by hiding it.
Whats going on here?
Almost an ethics issue – if there is any ethics in hous eselling?????
Edited 3/24/2005 11:05 pm ET by wain
Replies
This sounds like a sitruation where telling the truth up front would have been the best position. I agree that you should walk away. They are hiding something youi found ... what else are they hiding
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Sump pumps are not at all unusual in a basement or crawlspace. This one is just inside the crawlspace door, so I wouldn't necessarily say it is hidden. Is this ACE pump standing in a below-grade bucket or concrete sump? Is there a pipe draining into this sump?
The berm is telling you the owners took measures to minimize downslope water migration against the foundation, which is good. If the foundation line is perpendicular to the backyard's fall line, that's not necessarily bad. If the foundation has a jog in it that creates a pocket for water to get trapped into, that is not good at all. If the foundation is angled (as in presents a corner to the slope) into the hill, that is very good. Find out if there is a functional French drain that carries groundwater away from the foundation...oftentimes, this French drain sends it's water to a sump pump.
If you want to know what's really going on, put your grubbies on and go through the entire crawlspace with a digicam. Take pictures of things that seem odd, or that you don't understand. Find out where moisture enters the crawlspace, and how it is collected from the perimeter, and how it is conveyed to the sump. Find out where the sump water is pumped to. Often times the pump drain is hooked into the house sewer, which is against many municipal ordinances.
If you don't want to get dirty, hire a building inspector. I would never rely on technical/structural information conveyed by a realtor, even the guy who purports to be 'your' realtor. Their job is to sell. Yours is to beware, as in 'Buyer beware'.
Edited 3/24/2005 11:53 pm ET by Pierre1
Edited 3/24/2005 11:56 pm ET by Pierre1
great advice from Pierre
every state is different but I cannot imagine that is true regarding disclosure - the problem has been fixed so one doesn't have to disclose?
yes be wary
I read the post and you told the problem at the beginning. It has a water problem they have tried to fix. Thats all you know . I would expect some water problems in wet weather , but I also think the pump will take care of it . I would not want the house with that problem and wood floors. Ive seen those problems and they are pretty.
RED FLAGS..................
Crawl the crawlspace as has been suggested! Or hire out an honest technically adept Inspector, not the realtor's "pet".
It is an absolute must that you know what is going on in that area!
I did one two weeks ago...similar description as you looked in the C/S entry hatch. "pump rarely runs, only when there are extremely heavy rains...nothing to worry about!".....the realtor lady said as I looked in the hole and my client looked on.
I crawled it and found excessive moisture, muddy floor, box sill & joist black with wet mold and an occasional mushroom, mud sills rotten and collapsed, termite damage, extensive wet rot damage, several poor attempts at jacking/supporting failed joist, leaking water pipes, corroded gas pipes, foundation vents sealed shut, clothes dryer vented into C/S.
My clients were ready to pay $125K without a thought that the C/S repairs alone would be over $30K, not to mention the other major defects.
Do not believe what you hear.....investigate!
.....................Iron Helix
thanks for the replys.
I don't mind climbing under homes but was visiting for the weekend when they went house hunting and did not think to wear old clothes. Bad planning-- should have taken a video cam and a big flashlight - son has both.
This sump was about a foot in diameter and looked like a foot or foot and 1/2 deep made of black corrugated plastic. pump looked like an ace hardware light duty pump - when I lifted the float for a few seconds it ran and pumped some water - not a/c condensate - too early in the season for a/c. pump as a foot inside the crawl space door.
and having the a/c condensate line laying loose in the crawl space sump is stupid- the a/c line should go outside the foundation. the sump pump line just goes ouside (I think) it was the cheap 1 inch flex stuff.the pump was installed about 2 years ago after they had lived there about 4 years- something must have "made them" install the pump. Thats the root question. what would cause that ?? a termite guy saying hey you have too much moisture? My guess is the back yard water (was) getting under the house, (fall line of the back yard is pretty perpindicular to the house) they did dig a big gully infront of the berm about 20 ft long and 2 ft deep to catch some water. the berm goes across the back of the house and the hot tub and deck are on top the berm (it looks natural til you really look at it.the deal breaker here i think is that the guy won't say what the problem was. the house showed very well and intensively decorated complete with the fresh cookies on the table. Andoverpriced per the realtor.i think my son will need a lawyer - his own for the closing so maybe he should go ahead and find one now so when the realtor says "he does not have to disclose" my son can call the lawyer and ask is that true or is that "caw caw as we say in the polite South.
what would have caused the sump pump installation?? - the center area of the house is HW floors that look original and are not cupped. bedroom above the sump may be carpet - i can not remember.
My only observation is that that's a pretty lightweight setup to be handling much beyond condensate. If it's being at all effective, there couldn't be a very serious water problem.
Does the installation look fairly professional, or is it hack work. If it looks fairly professional then it could be primarily a condensate pump. If hack work then no telling.
But any house with a crawl should be examined from the crawl before purchase. This is plain common sense.
thanks. no reason for the sump based on a/c purposes - the a/c line could have been run throught the brick to outside easier than putting in the sump. So I do not think it was put in for the a/c .odd tho that anyone interested or forced to do something about crawl space moisture would leave the a/c condensate line loose in the sump pump area - it was about 1 ft away- not leading straight into the sump
In TN they would be violating disclosure laws. You have to disclose any known defects and steps taken to remedy.
The contract should have something to the effect "buyer has xx days to have property inspected. Sellers repairs are limited to $xxxxxx should repairs exceed this amount, and seller wont pay the buyer can walk away and get escrow back." to paraphrase..
Anyhow, this should NOT be a deal breaker by itsself. Have a professional inspector check it out and crawl around while they explain the situation. If you find this to be an unsatisfactory situation, then request repairs per the inspection report. If they wont do the repairs, take your money back and walk. OR significantly reduce the sales price to more than cover repairs.
Reqardless of what the state law is on disclosures that does not limit the buyer in any way from requiring that the sell do anything, unless it is specifically illegal.He could have a clause in the contract that requires the sell to stand on their head and crow like a rooster at the break of day.And what that disclouser should be in aimed at any thing that went on with in the structure that can no longer be seen. That won't prove anything now, but if any hidden problems that the sellers a$$ (and all connected parts) can be sued. So that gives him the emphasis to be more honest.Even if the seller was completely and 200% open and honest. You can't realy depend it. You really don't know what his expertise is in making the statements or the actual knowledge of what was done unless he did it 100% himself.Now that sump could very well been put in to solve a problem with the condenstate. And there well might be condenstate this time of the year if they have a high eff furnace.First a hack HVAC installer just dumps it into the crawlspace. Then after several months the HO starts smelling the musty crawlspace and either gets the hack to "fix it" or he "fixes it" himself.And that sump was the solution. Just because are better ways of doing it does not mean that this was not the solution for that problem. If a hack does hack work then you get a hack job.Now I am not saying that is what happened.But you can't depending what they are saying. The WHOLE house needs to be appropriate evalulated, PERIOD. And get them on the line for any thing hidden in the walls.Now all of this is from the buyers standpoint.You are right the seller is an ####. As his attitude is a red flag for *knowledgable/questioning* buyers. But what percentage of buyers fit that mold.But also, just because he puts up a red flag does not mean that there is a bull behind it.
True
Thanks
the gully in the back yard may be a givaway too also as the whole back yard drains toward the house.
how is my math???????
80x100 ft back yard, 2 inch rain = 9900 gallons of water?????
Thats a lot of water. 1/2 a railroad tank car. lot of volume . red clay not much sinks in.
and the internet said last July Greenville had 8 inches of rain on day last year.
My main comment after reading the excellent comments by others is--who is going to guarantee that their "fix" actually works? What if whatever undisclosed problem there was reoccurs and since it was not noted, it is viewed by legal people as something new that developed after the previous owner moved out? Not to mention, having worked with Realtors, I trust them about as far as I can throw them.
Wain
I am an attorney, although I practice in NY and CT so I'm not real familiar with law outside of those two states. But, as a general rule, the law is evolving in the direction of requiring more disclosure, not less. Especially with regarg to conditions that are not apparent to the casual observer. The era of "Buyer Beware" is long over.
For example, the presence of mold in a house (typically created by too much moisture) can lead to or aggravate allergies. I've heard of several house sales that have been voided after closing because the new owners discovered a mold condition after purchase when they began living in the house and they experienced allergies that made living in the house impossible. But, in those cases, everyone lost money, not to mention aggravation and time. Often they involved legal action in the courts, which is an additional $ expense.
The same may or may not be true of your state.
My legal advice: Definitely speak with a lawyer who regularly practices in the field of real estate (not some friend or uncle who handles divorces but will help you out in this one case). Ask every question you can think of before you put anything $ down. If the deal falls through, then it wasn't meant to be.
From a non-lawyer position: If they installed this sump pump 2 years ago to correct a problem, what was the problem? Was it fully cured with just the sump pump? If fully cured, why didn't they remove the sump pump? After all, it wouldn't seem necessary any more and why leave it there to create questions and doubts such as the ones you are facing now.
Check with Town Hall - did they pull any permits recently for either the installation of the berm or the sump pump. Probably not, but it's worth checking. Maybe someone at Town Hall remembers them coming in with the problem looking for advice on a particular condition. Does the Town have a department dealing with residential mold, allergies, or the like? This address ever come up? Going with photos helps jog memories sometimes.
Ask HO for name of contractor(s) who did the work. Contact them and find out what homeowners told them was the reason for getting the work done. Maybe the HO explained the problem and asked the contractor for solution and the berm was the answer. If so, what was the problem? If the HO refuses to identify the contractor, bad sign - non-cooperation signifying that they are hiding something.
Talk to neighbors on either side and find out what they know about the problem and the construction. Do they have a moisture problem too? What did they do to resolve it? Did their solution work?
Definitely have the house inspected by a professional home inspector or engineer - preferably someone who knows about moisture and mold creation/abatement. Does this crawl space have a cement floor or a dirt floor? If dirt, can it be covered with HD plastic to minimize moisture entering the area? Are vents installed to introduce fresh air? I realize summer air in the Carolinas might be humid as it is here in CT, so treated air or a dehumidifier might be needed down there, but in the winter months?
Your son is making one of the largest investments of his life. Don't get caught in a money pit for the sake of saving maybe $5,000 (probably a lot less). And, if mold is in the house, he may have trouble getting homeowner's insurance and, more importantly, he may have trouble getting rid of the house (selling it) to another person a couple of years down the road.
Don't rush into the deal - don't be pressured into the deal (always a bad sign). If it sells to someone else first, well...that's life. Be sure, be comfortable, be safe before you buy. Good luck.
Griff
Just thought I'd let you know. ALL realtors work for the seller. It is the seller that PAYS the realtors. Even your son's realtor. The only exception would be if you hired (paid) a realtor to find you a house. This is the law. Here in MA realtors have to tell perspective buyers who they work for and have the buyer sign a statement that they understand. Always keep this in mind when buying a house. Any house.
My 2 cents