Setting hinges on a buuuunch of doors
A friend of mine asked me to bid on a job to replace 120 utility doors on some condos. They want to leave the frames and supply blank slabs. I normally build custom homes and additions so I don’t normally do a gazillion doors at once. (Actually I can’t remember the last time I installed a door that wasn’t prehung) So here’s my question
If you were going to replace 120 doors what tools would you be looking at? Bosch hinge templet? whizbang lock seter? 2 plastic Porter Cable templates nailed to a 1×4? Thanks in advance.
Replies
I would want to do some careful measuring to see if all 120 are to be the same. By "the same" I mean all done in the same door shop, using door shop production hinge routing machinery.
If my detective work proved that the doors were indeed all jig-machined, then I would buy them from my supplier thus prepped.
Why bother making all that sawdust on site, when you can buy them already prepped?
gregor,
This job would make it worthwhile to come up with a great "door holder" for one thing.
Those self-centering drill bits (vix-bits?) would be good.
Are these interior doors? Exterior? Both?
Exterior
So they have to be weathertight or you're liable, right?
Actually that is not a requirement. I originally told the owner that I wouldn't do the job unless we did frame and all. For one thing I think it would be cheaper. But he got a "great deal" on solid core slabs. The door accesses an H2O heater enclosure and they are under a balcony so there isn't a lot of weather. Here in Austin TX the weather is a bit more genteel than what some of you guys are used to dealing with LOL
Well, the thing that caught my eye in your initial post was that "they" were supplying the new doors. So you can't even mark up materials to cover risk, was my thought. At least the risk is reduced if these aren't weather sensitive, but still, you screw one (or two, or three) of these doors up, who's going to pay for the replacement? You? Them?
None of my business, gregor, but be careful bidding/estimating this kind of thing. I can see where it could go as smoothly as an hour/door (best case scenario) or take 1/2 a day or more on a leaner that wasn't installed right in the first place. Spreading doors, setting up a temporary shop or door table at each building. Lot of messing around there. Plus budget to cover a few mistakes as you get a system worked out. Time and Materials would be safest, but you'd probably have a hard time charging enough hourly to make what you need to protect yourself.
But to answer your question about tooling up - butt hinge template and boring jig would be mandatory if you were going to do the work yourself. Gary Katz wrote a book a few years ago about hanging doors "The Doorhanger's Handbook" maybe? Anyway, he shows a couple specialty tools in there (and I've seen him demonstrate this at JLCLive shows a few times) for holding the new leaf in the old jamb while you mark for reveals and he claims you can whip a new one in first try using those techniques. Might be well worth 15 bones to get the book and see what he does.
120 doors. That's a lot of doors, man.
Hinge mortising will be the easy part. The hard part will be dealing with out-of-square and out-of plumb jambs. And the strike and hinge mortises in the jamb might be bad. Cracks and stripped out holes. I don't know why they went with slabs. No matter how cheap they got the doors, the labor will surely kill the deal.
Owner supply doors?
Where do they come from? Are they a real good deal because they are seconds?
Existing frame wood or steel? If existing frame is steel then they will most likely be the same and your local supplier of steel door frames could machine the doors for you. A machined door in a good door shop should go on with no problem at all. Just be sure of your measurements.
The existing frames are wood. and the doors are VERY ratty. If all the buildings were constructed at the same time the doors are probably all the same. But what happened in the 25-30 years since? Who knows. I've seen maintainence guys do some pretty crazy stuff.
Just for kicks where at in Austin are you doing this? Oh, dont worry, I'm not going to come by and steel the job away from ya!
Sounds like your going to have to fit each door so you better either bid'er high or T&M it.
Doug
Gee, know I know why I see so many doors in the south just screwed flat without mortising.
be a slickmeister
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Are they supposed to be mortised?
Huh.....who'd a thunk it
Lately I've been seeing new prehungs in the store with the hinges just screwed flat to the door. Never noticed it before.
be but I'm a 4eyes thinking maybe I need 6
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
I hope you bid this on a T&M basis. It's a good bet that you won't be able to do much assembly line work because it's almost guaranteed that each door will need some custom "tweaking".
Your customer may have saved a bundle by buying blank slabs, but it's gonna get eaten up with all the "fit and fiddle" work you'll be doing.
Gregor, listen to these guys!
Make sure you bid this one high. I envision this job going much longer than you would ever think it should. you will very likely be doing 120 seperate custom fittings on some really out of whack door jambs.
It's not your fault the other guy is an idiot for thinking that replacing slabs alone would somehow be cheaper than replacing the entire jamb. The extra labor on that ought to make it awash.
I envy you for living in Austin. Hopefully I'll be there for SXSW this year, sitting in Antone's, or Joe's generic, listening to some great blues.
Gregor,
I've installed 12 slab doors in my my home in existing jambs. One trick I was taught was to check the fit of the old door in the jamb. Write any adjustments you want to make (too small a gap, too large a gap, out of square, etc) on the rails and stiles. Then take down the old door and lay it on top of the new one and mark your hinge mortises and other height and width adjustments. Use a good piloted mortise router bit. A multi hinge template (check Amazon) although expensive might be worth it. I also use a 2" screw in at least on of the hinges (usually the center hole on the top) to go through the jamb and catch a stud. Leave all the screws a little loose until to get the door mounted then tighten them all. No matter how fast I can move it still takes about 1 hour on average per door, with boring out for the knobs and retrimming some of the doors once or twice to fit correctly. Gary Katz wrote a great article in the Sept. '04 FHB.
Good luck,
Don
I don't do many doors DJH, but when I read this thread, I thought of doing exactly as you've decribed. The existing door will tell the story.
blue
Blue---and DJH,
the most doors I have replaced for 1 customer at one location is 6
and I did it pretty much like DJH-------although it took me on average 1-1/2 hours per door
Morticed the hinges by hand with chisel---drilled for lock sets etc.
doing it door by door was very handy---being able to assess the existing door size, reveals etc. was a big help.
all 6 doors were nominally the same size---but ended up being cut to 6 different heights due to floor coverings etc.
Gary Katz book a BIG help-----especially with tweaking the hinge knuckles and hinge pins--------- not being a bright guy---it would have taken me years to figure those little tips out on my own---well worth the purchase price.
Stephen
for fitting the slabs:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004U0SZ/103-3634661-2109423?v=glance&n=228013
for mortising the hinges:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000224L5/qid=1135278415/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-3634661-2109423?v=glance&n=228013
to hold the doors:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000660ZLW/qid=1135278474/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10/103-3634661-2109423?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013
for the lock bores:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00066167E/qid=1135278740/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-3634661-2109423?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=228013
for drilling the hinge screw holes:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=nb_ss_hi/103-3634661-2109423?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=vix+bit
of course you will need a belt sander, too. does the job involve anything more than slab fitting, hinge mortise and install, door hanging, and lock prep and install ? T & M for this ? i wouldn't. figure on 4 doors per day. after one or two days, you should easily surpass this number.
carpenter in transition
4 that many doors get a good metal template rig stay away from the porter cable plastic stuff, they flex and aren't true; ok for a door or 2 if a yard w a door machine can precut the blanks for u like someone else said is way to go
Gregor,
Many years ago, I was offered a similar door replacement job, although not on such a large scale as the project you are contemplating.
I had only worked commercial jobs so I knew the basics of how it was done, and had seen some good door hangers at work. I decided to tool up, and spent about $800 on a Porter-Cable 59381 hinge butt template kit, a Porta-Plane, and a 1 1/2 horse router. (I already had a Sargent lock boring jig) I didn't make much money on that job, but what I did learn was the basics of how to hang doors, and become comfortable with the tools, and progress a little further into the trade. If you are looking to learn and grow some in the trade, you really couldn't ask for a better place to practice than on 120 utility room doors.
Sure, you'll probably suck for the first few days and wonder why you ever took the job, but by the end, you will be a door hanging fool. And if your anything like me, you will look at all future door replacement jobs with a little different perspective, and a lot more confidence in your abilities. It really isn't as tough as you might think.
Good luck!
If you're thinking of taking the job, you need to carefully assess what the existing conditions are.
It could be as easy as getting all 120 doors prepped by someone with a door machine, although it sounds like the doors might already be onsite, in which case trucking them to a door shop might be more trouble than it's worth. I have had plenty of mediocre work done by door shops and they could cause you more problems then they save you on something like this. Plus, they probably just want to make and sell prehung units anyway.
If the doors are centralized in one spot, and you can machine them in that spot, then I would get a couple of jigs and just do it there. Two guys could mortise for all of the hinges and bore for the locksets in a couple of days. I would do that as operation #1. Then, you start spreading them out, swapping out the hardware, and swinging them.
But first you gotta see what's going on. I'd have to check at least a dozen of the openings, randomly, see if the hardware prep is 100% consistent, see the the jambs are square, see if the doors have been planed, see how plumb things are. If there is any variation at all in the hardware prep, or the jambs are not true, then all bets are off and you either bid very high or you work T&M.
I would advise you to not start "manufacturing" until you have 3 or 4 "working models" - otherwise you could be manufacturing mistakes. I've made this mistake many times (though not on 120 doors).
Gregor,
Here's a rough sketch of a door work bench I saw once.
View Image
The top was 3/4" ply, about 4' long, overall it was 35" wide, so it would fit in most entries. The top over hung the ends of the carcass 1 1/2" for clamping. The top and back side were covered with carpet, as were the two posts in back. The space between the posts and back side was the same as the thickness of the thickest door you will work on (1 3/4"?) after carpeting.
I don't remembar exactly how the posts were attached. It seems to me that they did not have the brace I show in the sketch. Maybe he used a bent piece of steel outside and under the runners??? If so, it would give a wider table.
The carcass was 28 1/2" tall from the top of the 2x runners the posts mount on. The whole thing was mounted on casters, which brought it up to a nice working height.
It had a duplex outlet on each end. The one I saw had an extension cord attached to a box inside, but now-a-days I would place a male receptical on the outside to plug an extension cord onto.
SamT