I am not a big fan of working at heights so whenever I need to, I make sure my ladder is really secure.
Here is a tricky situation where I was painting.
And here’s how I set up the ladder.
Anybody have any better ideas?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
Those climber things that telephone repairmen wear to go up a pole.
I would be concerned that the stool would flip up and back toward the stair stringer under load. I would attach that 1/2" piece to the bottom of the legs of the stool, then clamping that to the edge of the step overhang
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I would attach that 1/2" piece to the bottom of the legs of the stool, then clamping that to the edge of the step overhang
I like that idea. I'm going to add cleats to the bottom of the stool so I can clamp it whenever a similar situation comes up again. Thanks.
I'd forget the ladder and double plank across from the upper floor landing to the cross beam.
Edited 10/10/2009 12:04 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I'm with you. I dont think i'd be getting on that ladder.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I would hesitate climbing that ladder, if it was set on that steep angle, if it was firmly buried in dirt! That is much too steep and it is putting trememdous outward thrust on the bottom.
I also would be somewhat concerned about the plywood grain orientation of the bench legs. Your's look solid so I'd probably give it a shake to test it.
It appears that you have butted up tightly against the balusters and that will prevent the bench from sliding and getting some momentum, which could lead to a disaster.
I've survived more than three decades out there doing crazy dangerous things like that...but I always stacked the odds in my favor. For instance, before I'd climb that rig, I'd put a solid "wall" to bump against if the feet kicked out. I wouldn't want the rails to slide 6 or 8" and hope the balusters would save me. I'd probably use a simple chunk of plywood laid up against the balusters to give me the peace of mind I need to climb something like that.
One other point...I typically used a lighter duty ladder on a set up like that. The lighter ladders don't flare at the bottom like yours. That means that I could lay a concrete block on the tread and place the ladder on the block and the next tread. Your spread rails require you to build up 16" instead of 8". That poses a much more significant hazard.
All good points.
Yes, the angle is steeper than I would like, but each leg is sitting on a pair of mouse pads glued back-to-back to (hopefully) prevent slipping.
You're right, I shouldn't be putting so much trust in the balusters. Next time, I'll be adding a clamp to the tread nosing.
A lighter ladder would have been better. I'm going to consider buying a short extension ladder. A 16' extension ladder would have been sufficient for this job. I already have 8 ladders 2 of which are extension ladders, but they were both too long for this particular job.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Don, if you are thinking of using an extension ladder, then you want a set of extension feet so you don't have to use that step stool at all. With one foot extended, both of your ladder's feet would stand directly on a step.BruceT
And that just might be the simplest solution. I even have extension feet for my long extension ladder so it would be a simple matter of swapping them over to the shorter ladder before I go to the job.
It might not make the scaffold/plank crowd happy (and I admire their commitment to safety), but it seems pretty safe to me.
"It might not make the scaffold/plank crowd happy (and I admire their commitment to safety"
Now you are stretching the story a bit. I've had to set up plenty of scaffold to meet OSHA, which is the standard for safe. I can assure you that none of the suggestions that I have read give me any clue that their rigs were set up "safe". They are dangling by their family jewels just like the ladder guys....the only difference is that they think they are safer...which probably makes THEM safer.
The problem with extension feet is that it places the feet unevenly, placing more pressure on one vs the other. OK for 2-4 inches, but not so hot when you're looking at 18" difference.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
'Splain, please? I don't get it. How do extension feet place more pressure on one foot than the other? Seems to me that both feet will still bear half the load.BruceT
Geometry.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Can you expound on that?
You've got two lever arms of differing length, with a common fulcrum point. An equal force is applied to each at a given distance from the fulcrum. Will the forces at the ends of the levers be equal?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
OK, that's good. I can visualize that. I know there's no literal fulcrum in the ladder scenario, but is there a point that acts as a fulcrum? Maybe at each end?
The upper end is the fulcrum, for the purposes of this computation.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I came into this discussion late, but occasionaly I see these in pawnshops. Seems like a pretty good idea and pretty stable.
http://www.amazon.com/ProVisionTools-APVT-PiViT-Ladder-Leveling/dp/B000095SGF
The edges have a very sticky soft rubber coating so as not to slip. Will hook on a ladder rung or can be turned various ways to help level.Webby
I keep meaning to grab one of those but never think about it when I'm shopping. I've seen em at my local paint stores, and I think the big box's carry em too.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
I saw some of those on a job site once. I wonder if there is anyone on BT who has used them and will give us a review.
I think your lever and fulcrum analogy does not apply here. If the ladder were attached to the wall by hinges and you were measuring rotational force at the two legs, there would indeed be a difference between the shorter and the longer leg.In the case of a ladder leaning against a wall the force is mostly downward at the legs, with a small outward lateral force at the feet that is determined by the angle, not the length, of the legs. Consider two ladders of different lengths at the same angle; the downward and outward forces at the feet will be the same.BruceT
> Consider two ladders of different lengths at the same angle; the downward and outward forces at the feet will be the same.If the force were applied at the same relative (% of length) point on both ladders. It's not.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Length of ladder does not matter; only total mass and angle affect the outward force component at the feet (ignoring friction where the ladder contacts the wall, of course). It's a simple vector problem. At any given angle, a certain percentage of total force will be exerted downward and a certain percentage outward. The steeper the angle the less outward force, the shallower the angle the greater the outward force. BruceT
So the force vectors don't change as you climb the ladder?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Ok, you're right, for very long ladders the shift of the user's force vector toward the wall would tend more to slide the feet outward, but friction with the wall would increase as well, mitigating that difference. At the same time, the difference between a normal leg and an extension leg decreases as ladder length increases.
For any ladder less than 12 feet, the user's feet will be near the center of the ladder, so it's a moot point.
The original suggestion to use extension feet on a stairway involves an 8" increase of length of one leg or about 5% of a 12-foot ladder's length. The user is not going to climb any higher with an extension leg than with some riser placed under one of the equal length legs, so there would effectively be no difference.
Personally I like this ladder configuration best.
View Image
BruceT
I gotta agree with the other poster (I really should note the posters name before I click reply), fulcrum doesn't apply here. The issue with the legs being slighly different length would be the same issue with the plywood bench rigg thingy being a different height from the respecive stair - the second one up in this case. What happens in either case is the ladder just ends up tilted to the left or right. The pressure on the feet is still equal, and a shim under one of the feet would correct the left or right tilt.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Well, luckily whether you agree or not doesn't change physics.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I put a closed step laddder against the wall you see when standing at the top of the stairs. I ran a plank from the landing at the top of the stairs to the ladder.
This was suggested by a fhb poster.
In jobs like this I always follow my own rule of mechanically securing both top and bottom.
Paul's idea was good, to clamp that stool down.
One thing I use a lot in my work is the woven nylon strapping with the ratchet-hook tie down. I have several. On extension ladders of any size, I like to secure the top laterally by hooking to an anchor on the wall or building, (I use 1/4" thick ring screws, or a hefty C-clamp), wrapping it around both sides of the ladder, and then hook to another anchor to the other side of the ladder. Then tighten it up snug. The ladder will then not move in either direction.
Then on the bottom of the ladder, I take another strap and hook it to a lower rung and anchor that directly to the building or a well driven stake in the ground.
You could tie that ladder off likewise on the lower part to the opposite banister, and then to tie off up top you could drop in a 2x4 between the spindles on the upper floor and rest it on top of the boxed off beam where you would either screw it in or clamp it securing it on both sides, then tie your upper part of the ladder to it. Then you can still move your ladder back & forth and always be tied to the 2x4.
I know it seems like a lot to do, but it really isn't. The more you do it, the more creative you become at clamping things off without ruining anything.
I have ridden my share of extension ladders down the sides of buildings. The results are no fun and like Blue, I feel the odds are less in my favor as time goes by.
Rode one down once and came through the rungs. I hit the ground with the ladder around my legs. That left a big mark.
I had the honor of riding an extension ladder down from the peak of a gable onto the concrete pad in front of a garage. Unfortunately the ladder kicked straight back so I rode it down and landed flat on the concrete pad on top of the ladder with my arm thru the first rung and face above the top rung.
I bounced stood up and grabbed my chin, the giant growing puddle of blood under me gave me reason to think all was not ok. Lucky for me the homeowner was a nurse and was home.... unlucky for me was the look on her face as I knocked on the screen door. She then gave me a very fast ride to an E.R. I remember most of the ER visit, the nurses scaring the hell out of me as blood poured not only from my chin but from my ear as well. The side of my head and face started to swell like a balloon, my ribs and shoulder feeling like someone had run them over with a ten ton heavy thing... then cat scans the stitches, having my shoulder put back in its socket and having my jaw wired shut (oh the joy).
Long story short I tore my shoulder out of socket (my shoulder took half the impact and probably saved my life) bruised some ribs on the ladder from landing on it and shattered my mandible. My chin slammed into the concrete opening a large flap of skin that was hanging off my face like something in a zombie movie, my mandible rebounded back into my temporal bone shattering both and driving my mandible out thru my ear canal hence the bloody ear. 4 months 70 lbs, a few stitches and a ton of pain later I was good to work again.
I still climb ladders and have no fear of heights. I do how ever have a healthy respect for ladders and making sure they are set up right and tied off properly. I have learned that if i look at a set up and I am asking myself is this safe? (and I am looking at your set up thinking exactly that) It's probably not so I rethink it and find a safe way.THERE IS NO JOB WORTH YOUR LIFE
Edited 10/11/2009 1:16 am ET by xrcyst
Edited 10/11/2009 1:18 am ET by xrcyst
Wow, I guess you could say you looked like something from "The Xrcyst"
(sorry, couldn't resist <g>)
Glad to have you still here with us, and thanks for sharing your story in such a graphical manner. If that doesn't sink in for some of the readers, then they might just have to learn from experience.
So tell me, before that incident were you one who thought it would never happen to you? I ask because that's how I was before I almost pushed my luck a little to far a few times, before wising up. ~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Yep I was always the "it will never happen to me" guy.
I used to set up ladders off angle, twisted or on some form of block or stool to get into those hard to reach areas we all deal with sooner or later in just about any trade. I pretty much ran up and down them and never once really thought how bad falling from a ladder could really be. Then I fell and was lucky I walked away from that "experience" with only a few scars to remind me that I like breathing and hate the ER.
Welcome to the ancient and honorable Order of Ladder Ride Survivors
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was ripping the siding off our house, only up maybe 14 feet, when the ladder almost went -- I was just able to rebalance and control it. I looked down to see the pile of siding below me, with nails and broken ends sticking up. I moved the siding pile a safe distance away and then went into the garage and got a screw eye to drive into the house and tie off to.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Hold on there young feller! I didn't say, nor mean that the odds aren't in my favor simply because of time. I said, and mean, that I want to give myself the best chance, given the cirmcumstances. Your idea of tying off probably doesn't have much merit if you are doing something like painting a room. You'd spend more time tying and untying than you would painting. I don't believe I've ever ridden a ladder down the side of a wall. I remember spinning around on one and ending up on the wrong side of one. I did flip off the top of a poorly set 4' step ladder when I was in my 20's. I've stood on thousands of the tops of ladders since then but they were always stable LOL.I've read that carpentry is a dangerous job until age 30. After that it gets much safer...probably because we get smarter.
The process of tying off is only on the stairs, not the whole room. And a few extra minutes compared to possibility of spending the rest of ones life in a wheel chair singing "bluh, bluhh, bluhh" is a no brainer to me.
I was told about a guys father who was left paralized after a simple, totally avoidable jobsite accident. Had he been wearing his hard hat like he was suppost to, he'd be enjoying retirement with his grandchildren right now.
Most jobsite accidents are the result of neglecting simple precautions, like taking a minute to tie off. ~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
I was just considering the tying with a nylon tie down. In your example, you could have tied down each leg with a short nylon strap to the next step down on the opposite outside edge, creating a diagonal at a 90 degree angle to the ladder. This would prevent the kickout, and keep the vertical load on top of the stool as you intended.The mousepads ARE better than dirt, BTW!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
"I've read that carpentry is a dangerous job until age 30. After that it gets much safer...probably because we get smarter."I love you.
Aw, come on, guys! Do a realistic assessment!
The load is way more vertical than horizontal in this scenario.
If the balusters were horizontal, with the ladder standing on them vertically, yes, we'd have a problem. The balusters would snap, and we’d definitely have to pay our gravity bill!
But the greater part of the load is on the stair treads, and the balusters serve only to keep the ladder from slipping outwards.
No problem.
Also, Don, you and Jim are confusing STEEP angles with LOW angles. The LOWer the angle, the more risk of horizontal slippage.
And the angle in the pic is indeed a bit LOW. If the ladder angle were a bit STEEPER -- that is, more vertical -- there would be less risk of horizontal slippage.
But, IMHO, no harm, no foul -- I’d work on that rig any day.
AitchKay
But, IMHO, no harm, no foul -- I’d work on that rig any day.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'm here to say that it CAN be done, but I sure don't mind the feedback about how to increase the safety margin.
You're right, it can be done 99 times out of 100 but that hundredth time is sure going to hurt.
Your ladder is like the Little giant ladder but only the Home Depot or Lowes model and I believe they sell a leg extension kit for uneven ground or stairs , I don't know about you but I know I don't bounce and it will definately leave a mark!!
I have the Little Giant leg extension kit and it fits perfectly on the Gorilla knock-off. However, it's not long enough to reach 2 steps down which is what I needed because of the wide stance of the ladder.
But you've given me another idea which is to make a one-step stool (the one pictured is 2 steps) and use it in combination with the leg extension kit. A shorter stool would be more stable.
You guys still talking about ladders? I say again, with respect, plank it.
How do you think the drywall was hung up there? They planked from the landing to the cross beam.
This time, with some kind of finish on that beam, I'd want to protect it with an old blanket or other pad but that's the only thing I'd use a ladder to do...from the floor, not the stairs.
With two or three planks, it'll be simple to stand there with your roller and reach all the surfaces.
Edited 10/10/2009 9:50 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Agreed, the plank is the way to go. But my comments were focused on how I would use the ladder, not how I would not use the ladder.
I planked across to the a finished beam once and it turned out the dw was furred out to give it more depth in appearance. My weight on the beam crushed the drywall and I ended up having an extra repair to do. I haven't run into a similar situation since, but if I do I would rest the ladder agains the beam and run the plank to a rung on the ladder.
Hmm.. well, either way I would not do what's shown in the photo. I see it as dangerous. Keep setting ladders so they could possible kick out from under, and eventually one day it will. The it's just a matter of how the worker lands and if they are able to get back up. ~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Ted, I wasn't replying to your comments/advice but your point about possibly damaging a drywall finish on top of that beam is worthy of consideration.
I suggested using a pad to protect the beam's finish but if it's drywall I'd add a 2X4-8' on top of the fully padded beam, to spread the load from the painter's weight on the planks.
Nice!! Sometimes these posts don't always give us the answers but get us thinking on another path. I'd cut a piece of plywood to fit behind your ladder leg between your ballusters and the leg in case it slips .
I'd be concerned about it kicking out. That skinny little toothpick of a baluster would do little or nothing to stop it, and end up a being a costly repair besides the broken leg/arm/back/neck.
I like the suggestion of a leg extension. I'd trust even a home made extension over using that plywood jig. At least the extension would hit the bottom of the baluster, where it is way less likely to snap. Also, the suggestion of web strapping is a good one. Strapping each leg to the bottom of the balusters opposite where the ladder is sitting will keep it from starting to move in the first place.
I see that rig as an accident waiting to happen and if I were in charge of the job I wouldn't allow it. I wouldn't want DonCanDo to become DonUsedTo.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
See my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 10/9/2009 11:32 pm by Ted W.
My idea is way different then every one elses.
A. Is the beam going across an actual beam?
B. The balasters to the left of the landing I would run 4 or 5 2x4s on there sides from the wall through the ballisters to a cleat on the beam wall.
C put a plank on top of them and a couple of legs down to the floor
Block and screw everything
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I'm on the ladder and plank team.
It's secure and enables a more extensive work area.
I would try using a ladder at the top behind the railing (so the plank doesn't rest on the railing) and set up a plank from the ladder to the beam.
Or, set up another Little Giant on the stairs to support a plank.
Here are the major flaws I see with your little bench idea-
The load is placed parallel to the single piece of plywood used for the legs. There is no bracing at the floor, so the ply could bend and snap.
I don't see anything andhoring the bench to the stairs, and all of the rotational force the ladder is generating is at the end of the bench by the spindles. Maybe rotational is the wrong term, but you should get the point.
Do you know about those anti-slip mats sold to go under area rugs? I would put that under the bench, and there is no way I would use glued together mouse pads like you are. Use the anti-slip stuff instead.
That anti-slip stuff is great for setting up extension ladders on a wood deck.
You couldn't pay me enough to climb your setup. If something happened, those little spindles wouldn't stop me... and I would probably end up with a punctured lung. No thanks.
Edited 10/10/2009 10:38 am ET by danski0224
You've done well, trying to make lemonade from some sour lemons!
And I still don't like it. I really wish architects didn't insist upon making things as inaccessable as possible. I mean, how are you supposed to service the gizmo that's mounted over the stairs?
In a similar situation, I took a slightly different approach. I used a half-sheet of 3/4 plywood to make a stair-wide platform, that was long enough to extend past the top of the handrail when level. I used a 2x4, screwed to the plywood, to transfer the load to the railing. C-clamps below the 2x4 kept it all in place; then I set the ladder up on the platform. (To be fair, this railing was of steel tubing).
IMO, making a platform is a lot safer than just trying to support the legs - and the legs MUST be sitting on the same board. In your set up, for example, an additional board that went from stair to stool, under both legs, would prevent any tendency for that stool to 'roll' to the side.
It's possible - though I've yet to find this situation in the real world - to come across a set of stairs where you can set up a 4-way ladder so as to make a platform. Plan ahead, and make some manner of plank to bridge across the rungs, and you'll work much happier.
Yes, run planks from landing to beam
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know that there was any question about using a plank. I went back to look and it looks like he could easily lay a plank. Then, he'd have to set a ladder on the plank.
I don't mind balancing ladders off planks. Thats fun too. In either case though, I'm not putting a ladder up with that slope.
We usually set up a Baker scaffold on the stairs with one set of legs on a step and the other on the floor. With a half set on top of that we can reach just about anything.
I've never owned a baker but I've set about ten thousand plank scaffolds in every shape, size, orientation and some of them were even safe!
It works great for uneven surfaces since you can set each end at a different height. The deck is 2' x 6' so there is a lot of room to set on top.
Looking at it again, the main problem I see is that the ladder appears to be at too shallow an angle -- to far from the vertical. Moving the base of the ladder towards the wall 6-10 inches would improve this. The result would be that the ladder would be less bouncy, would be less likely to kick out, the near leg could be centered over the stool more (producing less tendency to tip the stool), and it would be easier/safer to mount/dismount the ladder.
A piece of wood of the appropriate width could then be placed at the base of the ladder to bear against the balusters. By spreading the load out against several balusters with the board, there would be less likelihood that the balusters would break loose should the ladder slip.
If this sort of situation was fairly common, one could probably rig up a gizmo that would hook over the left edge of the step and provide resistance against the ladder feet slipping.
There probably should be rubber padding under the stool legs, to prevent scratches and discourage sliding.
Planking out to the beam is iffy. You should at the very least place a piece of 2x4 (or maybe 2x6) along the length of the beam so that the plank would bear on the center of the beam and not the edges. And still you have no assurance that there is solid wood immediately below the top drywall, or that the beam is even structural.
or that the beam is even structural.Pretty sure it woulldn't be there if it wasn't structuralBut for cf, you think that dinky box under the ladder leg is 'structural'?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The box looks fairly substantial to me (though I'll agree that it's hard to tell from a picture). Could be better, but could be a lot worse.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Yeah, that little stool is quite sturdy. And what is not obvious in the picture is that the base of the stool is against the balusters and the piece of plywood that is clamped to it is also against the balusters. I was never concerned about the strength of the stool, but I was concerned about slipping, tipping and rocking.
Nonetheless, I'm mentally working on the new and improved with fewer broken bones version of "Don's little stair stool". I'll post pictures if I ever get around to making it.
Yeah, the new and improved version would be a bit similar to the folding scaffold solution suggested above, having a (probably detachable) top piece that's wide enough to rest on the uphill stair tread. Would need some different arrangement for adjusting height (with no chance of slipping!) though.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Yup, those are the very things that I am trying to address in my virtual model. And add to that lightweight and portable.
I was thinking that poured concrete would eliminate the tipping concern.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Rule 1: Never use a ladder when you don't have to.
Rule 2: See Rule 1.
HVC nailed it in post #4; drop a scaffolding plank across to the beam.
Alternatively, Florida suggested another ladderless way to go (baker's scaffolding) which is SOP for professional interior painters.
Ladders are the solution of last resort for this sort of thing. They are not designed as work platforms; they are temporary stairways. I will work off a ladder only when there is no other reasonable way to get where I need to be, and when I know I'm not gonna be working off it for more than a few minutes.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Sometimes, you spend more time rigging all those planks and staging and it just isn't worth it. I've done a ton of work working off two, three or four ladders.
The key word is 'reasonable'. If there is no reasonable other way to do it than ladder, I'll ladder.
But there usually is. And in Don's case, there emphatically is. I actually almost got the giggles reading all the intense discussions about ladder angle and foot spread and yadda yadda which followed (and completely ignored) HVC's statement of the obvious solution in post #4.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I totally agree, a ladder should be the solution of last resort. All the rigging it takes just to paint a few feet, then have to take it down, move it a few feet, rig it up again... one could easily spend 2 hours or longer just to paint a simple line. In that time I can c-clamp some 8' long 2x4s to my painters stilts and cut in that entire ceiling without stopping. For even more efficiency I can leave the part over the stairs for last, at which point I whip out the hand saw from my back pocket and cut the 2x4s a little shorter for each step, as I work my way up them. By the time I get to the top of the steps the 2x4s will be cut short enough that I don't even have to step down or unstrap the stilts. I just go out to my van, slide the seat back a little and go on home. Next day just clamp on some new 2x4s and do the second coat. Done, paid, and I'm dancing all the way to the bank while everyone else is still playing with their planks and ladders.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Ted, if you are taking 2 hours to cut in a simple line off a ladder, you are doing something very, very wrong.
You guys are making ladders out to be some villain and that is just crazy talk. There is a time and place for everything and villifying ladders is just nuts.
It depends on the line, the ladder, the number of colors, the amount of trim, the size of the room, how straight the corners are.....
The 2 hours is just a random number, but I've spent way longer than that when doing several rooms and switching colors several times. Using a ladder would have taken twice as long.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
I guess it all depends on how you want to interpret the op and his question.
He's showing a specific ladder set up and asking for suggestions. He received plenty of good feedback which will benefit him on EVERY stairway.
The idea of planking across the beam and landing is only half way helpful becuase the plank still leaves him 3' short of where he needs to be. He'd have a few planks that would be helfpul in some of the area if he is willing to balance on step ladder too.
"the plank still leaves him 3' short of where he needs to be."I never did figure out exactly where he needed to be - if he was cutting in wall/ceiling joint or what, but that could be easily reached from a couple planks there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The op was painting so I'm assuming he's either painting the walls, or the ceiling, or both. In either case, he WILL BE PAINTING HIGHER THAN HE CAN REACH FROM A PLANK. Conveniently, all the plank proponents have refused to explain how they were going to reach beyond 7 feet on that plank. The extension ladder gets the op up there to do the job...no one else's suggestion has answered that. I wonder why?
> Conveniently, all the plank proponents have refused to explain how they were going to reach beyond 7 feet on that plank. Balance a mud bucket on the planks, of course!
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
he WILL BE PAINTING HIGHER THAN HE CAN REACH FROM A PLANK.
The beam the plank will be resting on is plenty close enough to reach. If the beam were the same height as the top stair, it's true he wouldn't be able to reach. But it looks like he would need to set the plank on a ladder at the top of the stairs, and across to the beam, then might even have to crouch a little to keep from bumping his head.
View Image~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Unless this is Escher's house, it seems to me the top of the beam is about on the same level as the floor on the far side.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The ceiling is lower.
EDIT: ..and then I go back and read the rest of the posts. So, yeah... like don says.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netSee my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 10/11/2009 11:31 pm by Ted W.
Your eyes have been victimized by an optical illusion. The top of the beam is the same height as the top of the floor...within an inch or two. My guess is that the beam is part of the floor system. I'm guessing that because I've framed a few hundred houses similar to that set up in some way, shape or fashion.
You are seeing it correctly. The top of the cross-beam is the same height as the 2nd floor. The 2nd floor ceiling is 8', but since the sloped section drops to about 7', I could easily have painted it by simply standing on a plank.
The one downside to a plank which has already been discussed is somehow knowing how the cross beam was drywalled and ensuring that it doesn't get damaged. Another downside for me, would be standing about 11 feet off the ground with nothing for support other than a wall to lean against.
I thought it was 8' with the slope bringing it down to 7'. I'm sure you'd find a way to protect the beam but that doesn't explain how you'd paint all the ceilings. I just don't see the point in villifying a ladder. I've spent a considerable amount of time working off ladders as well as scaffolds. There are times and places for each of them. I don't see that little amount of cutting in as a place where I'd need a scaffold. I'm seeing ten minutes worth of cutting.
"that doesn't explain how you'd paint all the ceilings. "Common now Jim, you ever seen a ceiling get painted before? There's this thing called a roller frame that fits on a long pole type handle. You put a bushy fuzzy roller on it to smear paint around with. Depending on how high the ceiling is above you, you can do one 10-11 feet up there fairly well.Don't you think you are stretching a point a bit?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Don't you think you are stretching a point a bit?"No, but anyone condemning the use of ladders vs scaffolds is. ,
I didn't condemn ladders myself. Just pointed out a better way IMO, to do it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You didn't but others did and my posts are directed at them. The op was looking for help on how to set up a ladder on a stairway. Not every stairway as an easy plank set up. His particular situation is easily remedied with a lighter duty ladder and one concrete cement block. Yes, a plank would work fine in that particular stairwell hole but the block and ladder will work on 99% of the stairways I've worked on.
"with nothing for support other than a wall to lean against."didn't your father teach you to stand on your own two feet?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Conveniently, all the plank proponents have refused to explain how they were going to reach beyond 7 feet on that plank.
Shee-it Jim. No one has refused to explain it. Seems pretty obvious to me. A roller on a five foot stick is the obvious answer. I mentioned that in one of my previous posts.
If there's any cutting required, I'd have no problem working off a low to mid rung on a six foot step ladder, set on three planks. If I had any concern about the ladder walking, I drive a few temporary nails next to its feet.
The clear advantage to working off of planks is ability to change positions continuously, in order to roll paint with the same efficiency as standing on a floor.
I spent one cold winter hanging drywall as a sub in a series of two story apartments. Planking for the second floor ceiling in stairwells was never a big deal to me. It only took a couple of minutes to set that up. Planking this paint job would be quicker and easier than those drywall jobs.
Another job put me on top of a forty foot extension ladder, rolling stain on vertical cedar siding, out of a five gallon pot. That was two week job I picked up one winter, on some three story condos at a ski area. The tops of the cedar covered chimneys were about fifty feet off the ground.
I started a bit tentatively, hiking up that fully extended aluminum ladder with a five gallon bucket and a roller in one hand, slipping my other hand up the back side of the ladder as I went. After a few trips to the top and back I was comfortable with situation, though not delighted.
The ladder got into a harmonic vibration from my weight going on and off of each rung so it would move several inches, in and out, as I jogged up and down it.
I was a job when I needed money. I didn't have any choices about scaffolding so I made do with a decent ladder that belonged to the condo association.
I wouldn't even consider doing this small paint job off of an extension ladder. Much more time consuming, not to mention dangerous, than it needs to be.
Edited 10/13/2009 1:46 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
If you look at the picture again, you will see a sloped ceiling there, bringing it down from 8' to about 5feet of so. He's gotta be really short to not reach that off planks to cut in the joint, and a roller handle will let him get the rest
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"The box looks fairly substantial to me"and the beam doesn't?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Again, what are the odds you can set a plank across that beam without damaging it?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I can't speak for Piffin, but I can tell you that the chances that I could lay that plank across the beam without damage are quite high...say about 99% plus. And I have no reason to think he's any less careful than I am about damaging his clients' premises.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
100%
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The thought that the little bench might tip over while you're on the ladder makes me queasy...
I have an extension ladder with feet that extend 8 or 10 inches and lock into place with a pin.