Sheathing and roofing a 12/12 pitch

In a couple of weeks I’ll be ready to start sheathing and then roofing the 12/12 front roof of my new shop. A 12/12 didn’t sound too bad before I got the end walls tipped up 20 feet in the air….but it looks scary!
I’ve done a number of roofs before, but I doubt any of them over 4/12. This roof is over BCI’s (TJI’s from Boise Cascade, basically). I haven’t started looking for roof jacks yet, but suspect I’ll need them (I’m also going to install three skylights across the front, so this will be a little more work than just a straight sheath/roof).
Are there any better roof jacks than another, or just whatever Home Depot sells? Any advice on roping/harnesses/etc.? Alternatives to roof jacks?
The back pitch is 6/12, so I’m pretty comfortable handling that….a 45 degree angle just doesn’t sound so bad until you’re standing on the ground looking at it……
–Ken
Replies
My garage is 12 12 both sides. When I sheathed the roof I started at the bottom of one side and worked up to the ridge. Then for the other side I started at the ridge and worked down to the eaves. The last row of plywood we did from a couple of step ladders. This system worked so well we did it at my best friends place as well. When I was reaching down a 4 foot sheet of plywood with my air nailer I missed a few shots but most hit the trusses. If you don't have or have access to an air nailer get a hammer like the Stanely Fat Max or the Vaughn that has a magnetic nail holder so you can reach down with one hand.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Thanks! I have both a framing nailer and the Fat Max, so I shouldn't have any excuses.... --Ken
I think roof jacks are pretty much all the same. Unless you think you'll need them on other jobs and want to buy them, I think tool rental places will rent them to you. 12/12 is hard to stick to without jacks. You can try the trick of using old foam cushions (without the fabric covering) to stand on and move around the roof, but be careful!!!
I'd buy (or borrow) a bunch of toe board brackets, and use plenty of 'em. You don't want one of those slipping on you. And if you don't put them too far apart they help keep the toe boards off the shingles so ya don't mark 'em up.
I always leave the bottom row of toeboards on, and move the others up as needed. That way if you fall, the bottom toe board might stop ya.
I also like to use scaffolding or a truck to start off the bottom with, and I leave it in place. That way if ya fall, you don't fall as far.
I've never fallen yet. But ya ever know.
A: About two cans of hair spray.
You've pretty much nailed it, boss. Scaffolding the full length of the eaves is the sine qua non to doing any kind of roof you can't walk naked. Or even those...not much I dislike more than having to kneel facing downslope at the edge of a roof while I lay the first five courses. 4 in 12 doesn't seem steep at all when you're facing up, but....
For the sheathing phase, I'd probably not bother with roof jacks, because it goes up so quickly. Scrap 2x toe boards oughta be sufficient. But once he's shingling up the roof, a nice 2x8 set in jacks sure makes things a lot easier on the ankles....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"Scaffolding the full length of the eaves is the sine qua non to doing any kind of roof you can't walk naked."
Uhhhhhmmmm...I don't do roofs naked. Maybe that's a Canadian thing ???
"For the sheathing phase, I'd probably not bother with roof jacks"
You're right - I didn't think to mention that.
I also didn't really explain what I meant about using a truck for scaffolding. Here's a shot from back when we did our house roof:
View Image
The man who achieves makes many mistakes, but he never makes the biggest mistake of all - doing nothing [Benjamin Franklin]
Thanks for the good responses. I'll go check out the cost/benefit ration of rental vs. purchasing...usually I find it better to just buy things like this and sell them later if I decide I don't need them around. It is a good theory; so far I haven't sold anything.......which is why I need a new bigger shop. --Ken
This link, will give you an idea what roof jacks will cost and the options on angles or adjustables, etc. I also agree with having an old foam cushion on the roof with you when you roofing. Even on a lesser pitch roof, the nail gun, etc will take off if you put them down, the cushion will give you something to put things on without them sliding off the roof. 12/12 isn't comfortable for most people, if your not comfortable, get some type of harness or work rope, the short $$ is better then taking a ride. The site below is nationwide and has all that type of stuff.
http://www.abccatalog.com/store/listcategoriesandproducts.asp?idCategory=694
That's a great resource. Thanks. --Ken
Again, thanks for the great link. It did raise the question for me, however, of what angle bracket is more comfortable for a 12/12 pitch...the 45 degree (which would leave the toeboard flat) or something like 60 degrees which would allow you to lean forward and have your feet flat.....I suspect the 60 or even 90 degree is what I'd want rather than the 45..... --Ken
If you're just going to use the roof jacks on your 12/12 roof, get the 45 degree type and get the 2x8 size. You'll be more comfortable on a flat 2x8 than on a pinched in 2x6. Trust me. At the end of the day, your ankles will thank you.
PS--eat at least two bananas a day for a week prior to doing this job; it'll help you avoid having mean nasty cramps in your calves at 3 o'clock in the morning following your first day up on that roof, LOL....
The 16" length is more than sufficient for what you want to do. No point in paying the extra bucks for the 19-inchers. (That's roof-jack length, of course...not banana length....)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I myself prefer the 90 degree one that take a 2x6.
For one thing, if i am sliding down the roof, I want to hit as abrupt an angle to stop me as possible. You can pile shingles and supplies against that square edge somewhat easier, too.
2x8's are too heavy to be carrying up a ladder and around the roof .
That and I don't find anything that makes roofing "comfortable".
Terry
Well, chacun à son goût.
I've got an assortment of 45's and 60's. My 60's all take 2x6; my 45's all take 2x8. Sometimes I run short of the better type for the roof I'm working on and have to use a few of the other type. While I don't mind working off a 2x6, I'm used to it and can deal with it better than someone who isn't. When you're 40 feet up, a 2x6 can seem awful narrow. That extra 2 inches can be the psychological extra that will make the difference between working comfortably and working scared.
(PIFFIN!! DON'T LOOK!!)
View Image
Being able to stand up straight without keeping your ankles in an unnaturally flexed position will go a long way toward comfort, too. If the jack plank isn't level or darn close to it, your ankles will always be bent one way or the other when you walk sideways across the roof face. This can become really tiring and can cause painful calf cramps the evening after a big day up on the roof.
Even a few degrees out is noticeable, especially for a non-professional. I once did a 25-in-12 A-frame working off my 60-degree jacks (that's it in the photo above, too), and of course they weren't quite level until I shimmed out the bottoms with a piece of 1x. I was in no danger of falling off before I did that...but I can tell you even my legs appreciated it once I got the planks level.
I've been awakened by screaming calves at 3am more times than I want to think about. Eating bananas--which are high in potassium, a trace element that helps your muscles get rid of excess lactic acid accumulated by unaccustomed muscle use--really does help. Why do you think world-class bicycle racers always carry bananas in those dorky pockets on the backs of their jerseys?
As to having the jack planks at a steeper angle to stop you if you're sliding down the roof...well, the point of setting up roof jacks in the first place is so you never have to walk the roof itself. You should have a new row of roof jacks set up every 6 or 8 courses, max. So if you do managed to step off one and slide, you won't have time to build up much speed before you get stopped. Pretty much any angle of jack plank will stop you unless you hit it going so fast smoke is comin' out from under yer butt....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dinosaur,
Bananas have about one milliequivalent of potassium per inch which means you would have to eat several 30 inch bananas per day to get sufficient potassium for therapeutic reasons. I'd pay good money to see Angelina Jolie do that but not you.
I'd pay good money to see Angelina Jolie do that but not you.
Roar!
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Very interesting. Unfortunately, I'm sort of allergic to bananas, so I'll have to find another fruit.....
--Ken
You can get potassium supplements at your pharmacy or health-food store. Bananas are just a tasty way of accomplishing the same thing, plus they provide other stuff a vitamin pill doesn't....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Look at Potassium with Magnesium supplements, they have all the things your straining muscles need. Helped my pregnent wife alot!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
HD had some adjustable ones which looked pretty spiffy. Three different pitch settings.
I've seen adjustables here, too, but most of the roofs I work on that need to be worked from jacks are 12/12. It's a popular pitch up here in snow country.
If they're not too expensive they could be the way to go for someone who does a lot of roofing where the pitch varies a lot. But it wouldn't be worth the extra expense for a guy doing his own roof once every 15 years or so....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I feel your pain.We are doing a complete rebuild where the pitch ranges from 12/12 to 14/12.No access from the interior is possible, and the roof system is 7" of polyiso insulation - so we don't even have any rafters to attach our jacks to!I've been practicing levitation all week.
Difference between the fixed and the adjustable was $2. Of course, that was 30% of the price of the fixed......
Difference between the fixed and the adjustable was $2. Of course, that was 30% of the price of the fixed......
And remember you don't need just five of the little beggers. You need five for each 16 feet of staging at a minimum.
And you need to set a plank every eight to ten courses up the roof, depending on how tall you are.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Uhhhhhmmmm...I don't do roofs naked. Maybe that's a Canadian thing ???
Must be...on account of how cold it is here most of the time, when it finally gets warm enough to even think about doing roofing we're all overheated and so we just strip down.
I also didn't really explain what I meant about using a truck for scaffolding. Here's a shot from back when we did our house roof:
If you don't do roofs naked, howcum your photo is -rated...?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
The image didn't seem to take in the last try. Here's another crack at it:
View Image
Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It does not matter if you have to distort facts or even lie. [Sarah Brady 1994]
hmmmmm......12/12 huh? Fun Fun
Just did one about 2 months ago.......it was a one story though. Had a kicker board on the edge and some 90 degree jacks with 2x6's......I'd get the 60 degree if i did it again though........those things are hard on the ankles.
The bananas probly are a good idea.......i usually eat a lot of bananas anyway cause i like em and they're cheap(30 cents/lb)! LOL Also, if you're gonna be up there all day, some runners stretchs in the morning and at lunch and when packing up can help a lot too.
Scaffold is a great idea too.......i did a 3 story 10/12 last fall and used the scaffold......had to do some soffit work and left it up. Give you a lot more security and self confidence which can really keep you from doing something stupid up there.
Well, now I can understand why you weren't nekkid up there; looks like the weather was somewhat brisk....
Wonder what OSHA's take on that scaffolding setup woulda been, LOL....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I have done my roof (also a 12/12 pitch) twice. Both times I made my own roof jacks from 1"x3"x 14". They were held together with wood screws and had a metal plate under them to hold them to the roof. They were made to hold 2"x6" and worked very well. The second time, I put a metal roof over the shingles. Took me all summer to do it, but after you hit 65, you slow down a little.
After the roof was finished, I took the roof jacks apart and used them in the outdoor fireplace in our back yard.
Definitley use scaffolding. Carrying bundles of shingles up a ladder can get tough in the last part of the day. When I installed the steel roof, I wore a safety belt and 3/4 inch nylon rope that was tied to the bumper of my truck parked on the other side of the house. (The keys were in my pocket).
Good luck and pray for dry weather.
I made my own roof jacks from 1"x3"x 14".
In the FHB article on roofing from the top down, he used home made jacks. Three pieces of 2x4, one about 18" to nail to roof and two shorter ones to form desired angle. bracket was covered on side with plywood for strength and probably glued.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
edited for color
Edited 8/31/2005 2:17 pm by Marv
I'll have to go back and re-read that article...missed that detail. --Ken
After the roof was finished, I took the roof jacks apart and used them in the outdoor fireplace in our back yard.
That's a funny line Oldercdn! Thanks for the chuckle.
blue
I did a 12 pitch last year. I used 5/8 ply sheathing, and ripped into 2ft. widths. Then I worked from the inside. No exposure until the closing sheets on top.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
That's an interesting approach, and similar to one I saw in the magazine (I think) about roofing from the top down using staging from inside.
Using the BCI's as roofing members, I'd have to build scaffolding inside multiple times to get to the right height (no bottom chord to stand on such as with trusses).
Looks like roof jacks and my old C50 chevy truck to start! --Ken
"Looks like roof jacks and my old C50 chevy truck to start"
That's what we were using in the pic I posted earlier. Fortunately, Dad has stock racks on his farm truck bed. Fold those up, and you're something like 12' in the air.
We kept nails and supplies in the truck bed also, which was handy.
Going to a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.
When I roofed, I used the pro roof jacks that were three galvanized plates having two hinges and a replaceable tongue. They adjust across a pretty wide range of slopes allowing us to keep our planks at or near level. We hung them off 12d or better of course. We had a dozen or so but they are pricey, $50 a piece I think, but they were worth their weight in gold. By the time I transitioned to trim I would chuck the fixed jacks in the dumpster rather than walk on them.
Thanks for all the advice. I started and finished the 12/12 pitch sheathing yesterday. I was one tired puppy.
I'd like to post a picture of the result, but when I click "attach files" nothing happens.....
--Ken
As a follow-up; we got the roofing felt on last weekend (ran the felt vertically on the 12/12 pitch as I could see no other way to easily get it on...overlapped about a foot each). I started applying shingles reaching as high as I could from the ladder.
Tonight I came back for the second run across the roof. I extended the ladders about full length (20 footers), put them out from the eave until the pitch of the ladder matched that of the roof, and I could get more than halfway up the roof just working off the ladder.....so far no roof jacks for the roofing.
The ladder trick is working great...as long as I have someone at the bottom holding it in place so it doesn't kick out. Once I'm up on the roof, the weight is mainly down on the roofing, rather than back down on the ladder feet.....
I'll try again to post pics. --Ken
"I extended the ladders about full length, put them out from the eave until the pitch of the ladder matched that of the roof..."
That's a good way to get hurt. The bottom of the ladder can slide backwards and you'll be picking your butt up off the ground.
How come there's only one Monopolies Commission?
for about $100 you can buy a dozen roof jacks and work safely
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I bought roof jacks, which I used when installing the sheathing and the skylights. Using the ladder(s) seems quicker for me than installing and moving a number of jacks. --Ken
I agree Bosshogg,
globaldiver is INSISTING on doing things slower and more dangerous than need be.
I don't mind if HE wants to live dangerously----but what about the poor sap he has stationed to hold his ladder right in the "fall zone"----plus what a waste of manpower.
Stephen
I suppose I'll fall victim to the same criticism a lot of diy'ers get here from time to time. I am working on this project after work in the evenings and on weekends as time allows. I do have some periodic help from competent family members, but it is sporadic.
I accordingly have adopted some procedures which would never fly on a "real" job, and probably wouldn't make sense for anyone who does more than one of these projects in their career. If had an application to do more than one roof, I'd invest in additional roof jacks, pump jacks, scaffolding, etc. I don't, though, and am often looking for a solution that has the dual (at least) benefits of being relatively simple to implement, and relatively inexpensive.
I'm not advocating my solution to anyone else, but I thought since I'd originally created this thread, I'd follow up with a report of what I ultimately did, and how it was working. BossHogg is right on the danger of a kickout of the bottom of the ladder, which was obvious to me and I addressed it.
The "poor sap" is my dad, and he's at least 10 feet horizontally away from any falling debris from the roof (including me). It is a task he's happy to do, and since I'm not particularly worried about the efficiency of paying hired help and getting the maximum return on the investment, is hardly a "waste" of manpower.
Globaldiver,
sorry---but you really don't know what you are talking about.
10 feet away---ha,ha,ha (LOL)
But hey---its not like I work on roofs all the time and have considerable experience where things land AFTER they fall off the edge.
If you had the slightest idea of the risk you are exposing your dad to-----you would apologise to him right now
the risk YOU are taking is your own concern-------but believe me---you are mistakenly doing things the hard ,slow, dangerous way.
Best of luck to you and your dad,
Stephen
I'm shaking my head here. I just don't understand the phenomena of some of the occasionaly builder types.... call 'em diy'ers if you want. People come here seeking guidance and advice and then when they get it... they turn around and do the opposite and are somehow convinced that during their short stay here, they've managed to streamline and improve the techniques and procedures offered to them. I'm really perplexed by this. The common response seems to always be something like...
"Oh well, I'm sure that works well for you guys.... but I'm different".
Reminds me of that guy a couple months back who insisted on doing his framing with screws instead of nails and was convinced that it was a better system.
I just don't get it. Who the heck wants to be up and down that ladder while roofing? Only time I want to come down a ladder while roofing is to wrap up and go home. In fact, I'm always psyched when we run the first few courses and I can get up on the roof jacks and be reasonably comfortable.... and relatively safe.
Pardon me if you don't agree. Maybe it's that ridiculous check I just wrote to my W/C carrier that's getting to me.
I guess this is a highjack, but this thread seems to be going in the toilet, so why not?
anyway, how's your project going?
by the way to the orginal poster, roof jacks are about 8-10 bucks a piece.... penny wise dollar foolish ring a bell
LOL. Yeah I guess I didn't help things, huh?
Our addition is going great Neil, thanks for asking. I stopped posting pictures because I didn't want to bore everyone to tears with pictures of the mechanical rough-ins and that's what's been going on the past two weeks. Only changes worth noting since the last round of pictures are the deck we did out back and the fact that the siding is done.
The exterior painters start tomorrow. The mason starts extending the chimney next week. We should also be insulated and at least have the board and plaster started next week. Insulation is on Tuesday and I believe B&P is still scheduled for a Thursday start.
I'll throw some pics of the exterior up once the painters get a jump on things. The deck came out pretty nice too. Weatherbest decking, PVC trim, and cedar railings... I think it looks pretty sharp.
Want me to bore you some more with pictures of the PEX plumbing and the air handlers? ;) I'm starting a new frame on Friday so this should get interesting trying to juggle the two jobs. I also got two sets of plans in the mail to put proposals together on. They came from a reputable builder in our area and the houses are gorgeous. Only problem is that I don't know where to begin pricing them.... might be out of my league. If I do get these frames you're gonna see a certain framer here quite a bit asking questions.... the roof plan looks like chinese arithmetic to me.
What've you been up to?
Bought them; used them for the sheathing; decided the ladder method worked better for me for the shingles. --Ken
I'm guessing that he's some sort of engineer by day. They usually like to re-invent the wheel on every project.
edit: checked his profile - he's a lawyer, apparently.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
Edited 10/26/2005 7:48 pm ET by seeyou
"Reminds me of that guy a couple months back who insisted on doing his framing with screws instead of nails and was convinced that it was a better system."
What, you mean all you pro builders are STILL using nails!?! Even after I've shown you the light!?! ;)
I have to agree with you about the roof jacks though. Hey, I'm a crackpot DIYer (or worse, opinions vary), but one thing I've found it wise to invest in is the safety. Gloves, goggles, masks, breathing apparatus, the right ladders, the right ladder accessories.
A roof jack is quick and easy to install and remove, provides a safe and stable area to work, and keeps you from dropping your tools WELL out of reach. Let you dad stay inside watching the game.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Now then, do you install your roof jacks with screws?I'm taking a poll
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pfff! Dude, you are so old school.
I'm on to rivets now!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Don't want to hijack this thread but since I'm going to be on a 12/12 roof soon (in the rain no less. No, its Seattle, there will be rain) I found this thread to be very informative. My question: can anyone recommend footwear? I just don't feel like my workboots are going to be a good idea on this wet roof. Its 30 year arch. asphalt. Is this just too steep to get any footing on anyway? I'll be wearing a harness (the "boss" insists and dammit she's right) I found the comments about stages and jacks very helpful. I wonder what use you can find for them after your build. Well, there's always eBay.
Thanks for any tips.
Terence
Mine was 30 year architecturals...and it was impossible to get any footing on.
Yeah, I was afraid of that. I was on my uncle's roof yesterday de-mossing. ( a yearly ritual near Seattle ) and I guestimate it was 8/12,9/12 or so and was just about at the limits. I had my cluncky work boots on and I was thinking a set of Keds or something might be better for roofing. Not much chance of dropping anything on your foot when you are the most likely thing to be dropping.
I have always had good luck on roofs with only the occasional wasp to liven-up my day. But after what happened to one of pals on a roof I don't go up without a harness. I would rather be around to suffer putting my daughter through college the hard way!
Good luck on your project.
Terence
I like those hiking boots that resemble soup-ed up sneakers (athletic shoes) for working on roofs. The softer the rubber sole, the better. I like them better than regular athletic shoes because they support your ankle better and ankles take a beating standing on a roof slope all day. Look for a pair around 6" high with a medium aggressive rubber sole.
If you don't think you'll ever use 'em again (but you will) buy a cheapo pair at Wally World for around $20. That type of shoe is great for other work too... especially yard work. Good support, very comfortable, and far more durable than a pair of athletic shoes. Many brands are also fully waterproof too... another benefit for working outdoors.
I've found that they're not too good for general construction though. They are much more susceptible to punctures (nails) than regular work boots.
td... i like a smooth sole boot with a low top ( 8" )
if you have to rely on your shoe sole for traction, you are going to be sadly disappointed sooner or later..
the days of walking anything over 6/12 are gone... you are just setting yourself up for a job-site accident ( yes , i walk 8/12 & 10/12 and claw my way up 12/12 on inspections )
you have to transfer your faith in your soles into faith in staging and lifts
btw... sneakers typically have deep lugs nowadays.. a completely flat sole ( no heel ) will give you much more traction on a slippery surface like a roof
i'd like to shoot the boot designers who keep putting lugged soles on boots..
all they do is pick up mud and dump it on my customer's floorsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ever see the tough guys on sites try to clamor around in those logger heeled boots? Gotta love that. I used to have a pair of Georgia boots. They had a fantastic flat rubbery sole and maybe a 1/4" heel. Those were awesome on roofs. Problem was that they were about $150, uninsulated, and barely lasted 6 months.
my favorite was Dexter.... but they stopped making work boots about 2 years ago..
been trying to find a Redwing with smooth sole.. but they are not as good for me as the old Dexters
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Not exactly a smooth sole, but close. I love these things and I think they look kinda sharp too. They're made by Red Wing and sold under a hunting boot brand called Irish Setter. Same great quality.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65018.19
I wear timberland's Pro Series Pit Bull- relatively smooth sole and pretty combfortable once they're broken in.
http://www.timberland.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1774622&cp=1762199.1780841.1780825&parentPage=family
There was a thread on this very subject awhile back. I think sneakers came out as the roofing footwear of choice. Traction and flexability over protection or support.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
As Mike Smith said, anything over a 6 or 7 pitch is not only dangerous but it will really take a toll on your ankles, and calves. You can walk on older shingles much easier than new shingles, the new ones will have a lot of loose granules that will seem like marbles under your feet. Jacks will not only make the work safe, its completely necessary on a 12/12, but it will also make the work much easier and you'll get done much faster. Roof jacks are very inexpensive, about $8 to $14 depending what you want.
The weather is cooler now and Seattle is cool anyway, but you do not want a really aggressive tread on you shoes, especially in warmer weather they will really do a number on the shingles if you walk on them. I like old running shoes or I have an old worn down pair of football turf shoes.
DDay,
if you look at a pair of running shoes----the outer sole---the tread part is really too " hard" to grip a roof well
I use roofing boots I buy from my roofing suppliers-----Thorogood Durogaurds
They are up to about $140/pair----and they are not very comfortable----but their soles grip roofs very well, almost perfectly smooth sole---which saves scuffing shingles----and the whole shoe is very durable.
Best cheap shoes to do 1 or 2 roofs in???? Converse All Stars----good old Chuck Taylors----my kids buy 'em off the internet for maybe $40 or so
Got to be carefull stepping on nails though---the soles are pretty thin.
Stephen
High top Chucks seem to be the footware of choice for my shingle crew. 3 out of 4 had them on this morning.
I've worn duck boots for years in the winter. They have relatively smooth soles and tend not to pick up as much mud as lug soles.Birth, school, work, death.....................
Duck boots?---you mean those LLBean things?
I wore those working on a framing crew one winter------they worked so well it turned me on to 'em for cold weather repairs. that gum rubber sole is fantastic.
If I did much cold weather work I would DEFINITELY get another pair.
Stephen
stephen... i was thinking about your article from about a year ago..
is that where i got the idea of roof layout with drywall tape ?
i can't find the article now..
do you remember a discussion of laying out roofs with drywall tape ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sorry Mike,
That wasn't me.
However-----I used to get one of those free trade magazines---" Roofing Contractor" -or something like that.
they had an ad for "roofing tape"---with your layout markings already printed on it.
Funny of you to bring this up----cause a couple of weeks ago I threw away a special tape measurer that had been sitting on my desk for months and months.
FHB sent it to me to review if I had the time.
Basically it was a well made tape----but with no inches/feet markings on it----just shingle layouts.
I was never---ever gonna use it---as I don't have any problem using regular old tape measurers to do layouts----so the thing gathered dust untill I threw it away in a fit of desk cleaning.
I am not gonna carry TWO tapes---heck--this year I downsized to a puny 16 foot tape to save on weight in my toolbelt-----but if the " special tape' had regulatr markings on it as well----I probably would have used it.
HEY!!!!!! ------it's still here in my trash can( my kids NEVER empty my office trash can.)
I was gonna offer to send it to you----but maybe I will try it after all.
I gotta a big repair to to tommorrow---don't know if I can use it there----I will likely have to fudge things and follow the existing layout.
Stephen
Hey Mike,
I just yahooed " roofing tape"
Thor Roofing systems makes the pre-printed disposable tape I had seen advertised before. You just nail or staple in place along the rake---snap your lines and shingle right over it.
I have never used it------but it might be just the thing you are looking for.
I will let you know how the other one works out.
Stephen
stephen,
Was that tape they sent you a Starrett? Saw an add for one just the other day in one magazine or another, something about speacial marks for 3-tab and Arch shingles... I don't roof, but I can't see the point.
Yes, it's a Starrett.
I don't see the point either
AND---it weighs, estimating conservatively---about 80,000 lbs.
One good thing---it has a hook on the end about 1" wide and 7/8" deep----big enough to really grab old of the bottom edge of the roof sheeting.
but without the regular tape measure markings----why would I want to lug it around?
Stephen
You need some ballast to keep from being blown off, maybe?
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this year I downsized to a puny 16 foot tape to save on weight in my toolbelt
I'm into downsizing too Haz!
Maybe I should start a thread and see who has the lightest rig. I'm fairly confident that I'd be in the top ten. I haven't dropped down to the puny 16' tape because I need a 30', but I might not be opposed to having the 30 in the tool box and the 16' on my belt!
blue
I've dispensed with the toolbelt completely. I wear a cloth nail apron and keep the rest of my tools that I'm not using at the moment in a bucket in the boom lift basket or on the scaffold.Birth, school, work, death.....................
You might be in the top ten Seeyou.
Maybe I will start that thread. I'd be intersested in seeing who's the lightest. I have no need for a cloth apron though because I don't carry nails. I an trying to figure out a clever way to carry a nail however-I need one spike.
blue
Blue----most of the roofers I know wear ONE nail bag and one hammer loop for their hatchet( and of course they can't keep track of even this minimal gear)
Because I do all the carpentry, flashing, sheetmetal etc.---I wear the occy red framers rig.
I just jettisoned the leather suspenders today and went back to the cheapy stretch nylon suspenders for the rig---it's amazing how much lighter the rig feels without the heavy leather suspenders.
thinking about this while working today( all day drizzle that was NOT supposed to happen---and even some baby hail/snow)
there is a limmit to how much weight I can eliminate from the rig---and shedding even a pound from the rig makes me feel 5 years younger----------this is maybe a wasted effort---------------------I could stand to loose 40-50pounds easy from my fat azz----then I wouldn't care what the rig weighed-------I sure didn't when I was 28.
occy reds, 2 utility knives, hammer or hatchet( 18oz hammer) chalk line, 16ft. tape, baby tin snips, nail set, 2 pencils, 4/1 screw driver, small channel locks, hand full 1-1/4" roofing nails, hand full of 8d commons( fed up with sinkers), handfull of 16d, handfull of masonry nails 1" or 1-1/4" mixed between fluted and " cut" wedge shaped, 1 coil of nails at a time.--------man that's gotta be too heavy.
Stephen
I should take notes. My belt weighs a god-awful ton. Every six months or so I clean it out and am always amazed by the crap I find. Today I was fishing in my tail bag for my chalk line and came up with the doorbell from my house and a 1/2" X 6" lag bolt. Seriously.
Bet you got some serious gas mileage robbing stuff stored in that utility bed already, too. I'm always amazed at what I find when I clean my tool boxes.Birth, school, work, death.....................
T^hat gum rubber is even good on steel up to five or six twelve.
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Stephen:
I'm sure I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to roofing; but then that wasn't my original question....it was whether one type of roof jack was better than another, and whether there were alternatives.
I received plenty of constructive and useful advice on roof jacks, and on some other ideas (foam pads, toe jacks, etc).
After successfully using the roof jacks to sheath and install the skylights, I decided (on my own) that using the ladder as I described would be faster for me, and I figured I'd "close out" the thread by letting those who gave me advice on the topic know how I finally finished the project.
BossHogg's comments on the ladder kicking out were right on; and useful. I had already figured that one out, though, and had accounted for it. The other comment about using the pickup in lieu of someone at the bottom was also useful (and that's what I used tonight).
I have been around Breaktime about since it started; mainly as a "lurker" just learning from the many competent builders, etc., who take the time to post constructive (and often quite humerous) comments.
I've seen a number of posts where a newbie asks for advice; gets good competent advice and then ignores it and does what they wanted anyhow (one not long ago about hand lifting a 20 foot section of incredibly heavy pre-sheathed, reinforced wall and then walking it around was particularly hair-raising and memorable).
I didn't ask for advice on roofing off a ladder; nor did I ask for the "easiest" way to get it done. Roofing off a ladder was something I came up with on my own, and didn't solicit input here on what everyone thought about it. It is working very nicely for my project and needs. I doubt anyone who does this for a living would do it the same way.
There have been many parts of this project that I've done purely with my own manual labor because I wasn't in a particular hurry, and don't mind the physical labor...cheaper and more productive than a gym. So I sure don't mind any of the observations that I'm doing it the "hard way."
I do know what I'm talking about with my father being 10 feet away from the eave of the roof; the eave is 10 feet high and the ladder is at a 45 degree angle with the bottom ten feet out. Unless I come skidding down the ladder and manage to stay on it until the bottom rung, he's pretty much out of the zone of danger.
Now; if you have a constructive comment about how he's in the danger zone other than "you don't know what you're talking about" I'd love to hear it; I've learned a lot over the years here and I'm willing to learn more. I just don't see how either me, my roofing nailer or the four or five shingles I have up with me are going to sail out to the bottom rung of the ladder 10 feet horizontally from the eave.
--Ken
"After successfully using the roof jacks to sheath and install the skylights, I decided (on my own) that using the ladder as I described would be faster for me,"U may have decided that, but it doesnot make it true. You have to do it each way to learn that you are now wrong. You are doing uit the slower, more dangerous way. You may not have asked for the comment, but you have it anyway. Do with it what you will, but the truth is out there.Likewise when you state that you are mentally unable to concieve of how you are putting the old amn in danger, you are basing your concept of the truth if the siutuation on your lack of experience, but based on my generous supply of the same, I can tell you it is easy to do flips, lose balance and throw, trip on rungs and bounce, and do many other things that can eaassily and commonly cast yourself, and or supplies or tools a good fifteen feet away from the drip line.And the most common statement afterwards is "Wow, that happened so fast, I never saw it coming!"
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ken..... you lay your first 3 feet from a ladder, then run a row of roof jacks and planks across the top course that you laid... now you can work the next 5' up the roof from that set of planks
run your next set of planks at the top of that course..
move up the roof in 5' rows... install all your ridge-vent and caps.. then take your roof jacks off as you come down the roof
you can also do it with just 2 rows , if you don't have enough jacks and planks..
working with jacks and planks is a skill you should develop.. it is just not good form laying a roof , working off a ladderMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I probably should. Now that the front pitch is done, I hopefully won't be doing another 12/12 pitch anytime soon.
I thoroughly understand the comments about extra work humping bundles of shingles up the roof; but how do you do that with roof jacks anyhow? If the bundles are delivered to the roof peak, don't you have to hump them back down to each course? Surely you don't bring them up from the ground to each course?
I haven't gone back to look at the label on the jacks I bought, but I think they said something like a weight limit of 275 pounds including equipment.....
Globaldiver,
You still don't know what you are talking about.
" I still don't see how me, my roofing gun, or the 4or5 shingles I have with me are going to sail out to the bottom rung of the ladder 10 feet horizontally from the eave"
YOU don't see it, but I see it VERY clearly( as does just about every one else reading this thread.
Lets look at some of the things I have dropped off of roofs over the years-----hammer, hatchet, coil nailer, flat bar, shingle eater, utility knives, tape measurer, chalk line, shingles, cel phone, radio, box of nails, caulk gun, slap jack----the list is endless.
See Ken---they don't always just slowly slide gracefully to the edge of the roof and then drop straight down
but rather
they accelerate---often picking up a bouncing ,bounding motion----and HURL of the edge of the roof.
There IS NO WAY that your dad can be standing on the bottom of the ladder and be out of the fall zone----no way, zero , nada.
How many times have I had to go in the NEIGHBORS yard to retrieve things dropped off a roof?
what you have done is put your dad in an impossible dilema
when you drop something
Does he------
jump out of the way---abandon the ladder and watch you fall towards quadraplegia?
or is he to stand his ground and take a hammer in the face?---or worse.
THAT's the position you have placed your dad in.
BTW-----a piece of shingle sliding over the edge---can FLY like a frisbee
the most painfull injury I have got so far was getting hit in the eye by the edge of a falling piece of shingle.
Your inability/ refusal to see what was obvious to everyone else here concerns me.
But you REALLY ought to be ashamed of the position you put your dad into.
Stephen
Edited 10/27/2005 7:51 am ET by Hazlett
Agreed. I also know tho that there is a mental block to be overcome by convincing yourself that the proper safety equipment is actually faster to use, even though it takes time to set up.
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I do have the bottom of the ladder supported and "tended" by my dad so it doesn't slip out. --Ken
You can get away with using a ladder that runs up on the roof but use your truck's tire and weight to hold the bottom from kicking out.
For something like this though, you should just spend a few hundred dollars and rent a lull from Hertz equipment rental or nations rent and get it done in a day with no dangerous lifting. After you got all the sheathing down you could have lifted the pallets of shingle up and stacked them on the ridge. Its a lot easier than kicking the heck out of yourself hauling all that up there and your only saving a few hundred dollars.
For something like this though, you should just spend a few hundred dollars and rent a lull from Hertz equipment
Please forgive my ignorance but, what is this "LULL"?
12/12, Why, I'd roof that one with the phone book!
(Stole that line, been dyin to use it!)
lull is a brand of construction forklift. Cat, Ingersol Rand, etc all make similar forklifts. A lot of people around here just say lull.
I looked into it. Rental cost of $350/day for a "snorkel" type machine. It has the enclosed basket, making it difficult to work out of...about the same or worse on other options (gradall, forklift, etc).
My main problem isn't the cost of the unit, but the fact that I'm doing this on and off and don't have a full day to devote to it. So, I'd need a unit for multiple days, and the cost then gets more problematic.
--Ken
On the shingles, I did buy some to have "on the ground" for the starter courses, but the rest were delivered to the ridge. --Ken