I’m lookng for a little help on getting rid of the gloss on what I believe to be shellac finish. Doing renos on a 100 year old house. 2 rooms are covered with fir wainscotting, dark stained and glossy finish. There’s also coffered ceilings with same finish. The HO likes the woodwork and the color but hates the shine. I’m hoping there is a way to dull the finish without removing it(a daunting task). Anyone??
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If you call a SW paint store, I bet they can sell you a chemical de-glosser
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Make sure it's shellac....water will leave white rings, alcohol will dissolve it....because I have a feeling you have to be carefull using a deglosser on shellac...
Steel wool, fine.
Rub.
Tell HO she can do it for free, maybe she'll like it shiney better after a few days.
Joe H
If it is shellac, I'd just lightly sand it and then put a coat of water based satin poly on. I am no shellac expert, but I do know that it is very accommodating to many types of finishes. It is often used in woodworking as a seal coat when a multi-step finish is used and the two are not very compatible (ie a water based top coat over an oil stain).
Mike J
I'd stay away from chemical treatments as it could get under the finish and lift it off.
0000 steel wool, a super fine Scotchbrite (gray or white I think) or a rub out with alcohol and a small square of burlap would be my choice. Whatever you decide, test in an inconspicous area and wait a day or two before continuing.
good luck
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
The two who said fine steel wool or Scotchbrites are right. I would worry that a water based overcoat would make the shellac blush. You could also ask your question at Knots, but I'll bet the woodworkers will tell you the same thing. (You could also try black furniture wax--that might make it look duller, but I would definitely test it in an inconspicuous spot first.)
Another vote for fine Scotchbrite....gray. More consistent than steel wool, and won't leave behind steel particles.....which can rust in the finish if you end up having to recoat anything. The white Scotchbrite has no abrasive in it at all, and is only used for final polishing etc. which isn't what you want to do.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
after abrading, i would definitely topcoat with something to ensure an even finish. there's no problem with an oil-based satin poly over shellac, is there? keep a fan going in the room to help dissipate the fumes while the new finish is still volatile.
Shellac is not compatible with poly. You can get away with it sometimes, over a small area, but you're taking your chances.
A coat of wax is an option, but you may get into a wax maintenance issue.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
thanks for the info!
it's a bummer though, because even sanding with a scotchbrite will probably leave little pockets of shine on woodwork that old-
Edited 8/19/2005 8:52 am ET by msm
BRI-WAX and grey scrubbie. Trust me. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
One THING at a time , Yup.
I think you're sort of right, Adrian. De-waxed shellac is a great base for most film finishes. However, I suspect it's unlikely that shellac used as an architectural finish is de-waxed. The wax in regular shellac can create adhesion problems.
Another chemical that dissolves shellac is ammonia.
Go with the Scotchbrite. Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
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None of this matters in geological time.
What part am I sort of right on? I'm saying do not apply poly over shellac; I know from first hand experience that you may get away with it in small areas (but may not).....I definitely do not recommend it.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
In this case, you're probably right. If you don't know the shellac is de-waxed, the assumption should be that it contains wax. But on new work, de-waxed shellac is an excellent first (and second, for that matter) coat under water based poly. It dries quickly, and lends the amber tone so lacking in water based poly.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Okay, you're talking about two different animals......waterbased and oilbased poly's work in completely different ways, although the basic resin may be similar. Whether a waterbased finish uses urethane or acrylic isn't a big factor for me, all the waterbased finishes work in a similar way.....IMO, the use of the term 'polyurethane' with waterbased finishes is mostly marketing anyway, just to make solvent-based finishers feel more comfortable. Acrylics make a better waterbased finish. Anyway, I agree with you that waterbased finishes can be used over shellac.
I've been doing this long enough that when someone uses the term 'poly', without qualifying that they mean 'waterbased poly', I assume they mean oil-based (and I think the poster that I replied to specified oil-based). Some varnishes (that are usually pretty difficult to find now), can be used over shellac, but oil-based polyurethanes can't, and every varnish label I've ever seen spells that out. I've found you can push that a little, but not much.
As far as dewaxed shellac goes, 90% of the time I mix my own, which gives you a much better product than anything you can buy in a store (or I've been able to buy anyway). Zinnsser products are the only store-shelf stuff I've ever had even a small amount of luck with. Anyway, I mix fresh shellac, and dewax it myself......but I don't believe anyone, including the big manufacturers, gets it all. ....if anyone can, it's Zinnser, and I've had a couple of absolute disasters when I put too much trust in them (and both times ironically when spraying waterbased lacquers). When people talk about dewaxed shellac, take it with a grain of salt.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I got a lot of response to this question. Thanks to everyone. Adrian you seem to have a pretty good handle on this finishing business. I haven't had a chance to determine weather the finish is shellac for sure, it may be varathane or something similar. If it is shellac I'll try the briwax scrubbie method. If it is a poly type finish, can we go over it with a similar product in a matte finish? I do have some spare pieces I had to remove for a door, so I'll experiment with those.
Cam
ps Can anyone tell me how to post pics to this board?
If it is a varnish, yes, you can go over it with another coat of varnish with a lower sheen.....your sheen always comes from the sheen of the final coat. But you would need to scuff the existing varnish well so the new stuff can key into the old varnish.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
To make sure its shellac:
1. Clean an inconspicuous place with mineral spirits. This will remove any paste wax on the surface.
2. Dip a Q-tip in some Denatured Alcohol and rub on the cleaned surface. If its shellace the finish should begin disolving immediately.
Shellac is probably approprate to the time period of your house and if you remove it, you should consider that you are removing a historical aspect of the house. I've heard both paste wax and varnish can be used over shellac.
If you've got a lot of wood to (re)finish you should find a copy of Bruce Johnson's "The Weekend Refinisher." Its old but is packed with info.
I can't get denatured alcohol up here. I've tried every paint, hardware store. Everyone knows of it , but no-one sells it. Is there something else that will do a similar job?
Go to a drug store or liquor store and get Grain alcky hol..it is the same stuff, denatured is modified to make it undrinkable, and hence less taxation. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
Maybe they don't know some of the other names for it--wood alcohol, methyl alcohol, shellac thinner, Bechol (not sure of spelling--Behlens makes it), isopropyl alcohol. Can't believe a paint store doesn't have it! Isopropyl has more water in it, from what I understand, than some of the others. Rubbing alcohol from a drugstore will work, but again it has more water. I suppose grain alcohol or even 180 proof liquor would work!
Great minds and all of that stuff...LOL
If he wanted to, he could set up a still I guess..got corn and sugar? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
151 rum.
No problem disposing of the excess "thinner".
Yeah, but it is really tuff getting the shellac off yer teeth. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
Yeah, don't try that with orange shellac. Well, unless you're a redneck.
Ahhhhh..another mystery explained..and I thought it was from tobbacco use. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
Button shellac and tobacco teeth are pretty much the same.
How come you arent working? It's already 90 at 10:45 here just north of you.
Me and the dog are gonna airseal the basement rim area...cool and nice down there.
I just went out the van for a looksee at what I need to take down there...yup, it's 90 or better in the sun.
I am getting really tired of this crap, today is the DW's turn outside all day, selling her wares...I might get more sympathy after she sees how brutal a day it is and NOT being on a copper roof.
Then again, probly not.
Might just go and buy my Sunday beer, and bag it today..LOL. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
Supposed to be cooler next week here. Have you got a basement under the log house?
The 16x42 addition has an 8' unfinished basement. Under the Kitchen, bath, laundry and Living room, above that is 2 BRS and a bath.
The log on grade is 16x42 with two main rooms and a dogtrot. with a half story above.
I come up w/ 2400 sqft total.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
let's be entrophatic, you start
Edited 8/20/2005 11:10 am ET by Sphere
No way! My rum is too precious to me.
Got to be careful.....those aren't all different names for the same product, they are different products, and they don't all work well on shellac.
Denatured alcohol is ethyl alcohol (ethanol) with some methyl alcohol (wood alcohol) added to it to make it poisonous. Denatured ethyl alcohol is what you would find in any quality shellac thinner from a good quality supplier (Mohawk, Behlens, Lee Valley); a commercial thinner might actually be a blend, but there will be a lot of ethanol in it. When I worked in a museum conservation lab, we used pure ethanol, but very difficult to buy in Canada unless you are a lab. Now I tend to buy the Lee Valley shellac solvent, which works well.
Methyl alcohol (methanol) will dissolve shellac, but it won't do as good a job (not sure why exactly, but it doesn't). Methyl hydrate is sometimes described as a synonym for methanol, but my understanding is that it is less pure, and has more water in it. I only use it for cleaning brushes and equipment......and I am very careful about absorbing any form of methyl alcohol through the skin, as it will work on your central nervous system and like I said, it's poisonous.
Isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) will dissolve shellac, but I was taught it isn't appropriate for use as a shellac solvent; it will cause a crackly/crazed finish (so I'm told; I honestly haven't experimented much with it for finishes because I know the best results will come from ethanol.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Yo Adrian, any idea what "denatured" means?
I don't see any natured alcohol on the shelf, do I need to go to the liquor store for that?
Joe H
I don't make up the names; I just reports 'em.
Off the web:
"A denatured alcohol is a mixture of ethanol with a denaturent (there are over 80 legal denaturents available and methanol is one of them) This makes the ethanol undrinkable and ready for commercial use. A good example of a denatured alcohol is the new ethanol gasolines. This is a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline."
Another version:
Denatured alcohol is ethanol with added adulterants that make it useless for consumption but still useful for industrial processes. This is done in order to make it exempt from taxes that apply to potable alcohol. Ethyl alcohol, also known as ethanol or grain alcohol, is a flammable, colorless chemical compound, one of the alcohols that is most often found in alcoholic beverages. ... Alcoholic beverages are drinks containing ethanol, popularly called alcohol. ...
There are diverse industrial uses for ethanol, and therefore literally hundreds of recipes for denaturing ethanol. Typical additives are methanol, isopropanol, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, denatonium, and even aviation gasoline. Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol or wood alcohol, is a chemical compound with chemical formula CH3OH. It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, poisonous liquid that is used as an antifreeze, solvent, fuel, and as a denaturant for ethyl alcohol. ... Isopropyl alcohol or isopropanol is a common name for 2-propanol, an alcohol commonly used for application to the skin, and popularly referred to as rubbing alcohol. ... 2-Butanone is a manufactured organic chemical but it is also present in the environment from natural sources. ... Denatonium, usually available as denatonium benzoate (e. ... Avgas is a high-octane fuel used for aircraft and, in the past, racing cars. ...
In this sense of the word, denatured means "a specific property of ethanol, its usefulness as a beverage, is removed". The ethanol molecule is not denatured in the sense that its chemical structure is altered. In biochemistry, denaturation is a structural change in biomolecules such as nucleic acids and proteins, such that they are no longer in their native state (the shape which allows for optimal biological activity). ... Chemical structure is the arrangement of atoms within a molecule, usually linked by covalent bonds. ... Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
By the way you can get pure ethanol that is not taxed. BUT it ain't easy. You need to be bonded and licensed, audited, etc.Used for industrial purposes such as later processing into other products.
Yup, I'm aware of that, and it's not worth it for small potatoes like me......denatured alcohol works well enough and it's easy to get.
When I worked in museums, I was told some stories about a certain archaeological site years ago....the artifact conservators were bringing in 45 gallon drums of pure ethanol....some of it (more than a little) made it's way into cocktails. Good times by all accounts.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I'm not sure what else to try although alcohol in general is unfriendly to shellac so you might try as others have suggested - something mean that a college student would drink in an inconspicuous spot on the trim. The bigger issue is that if you can't get denatured alcohol up there then you can't do any refinishing of the shellac itself. If the shellac is in perfect condition you may not need to (right now). Shellac and denatured alcohol are a team, because the D.A. is both the carrier and the solvent for the shellac. You need to have both if you are gonna do any repair work.
I'm no pro but we went through the same problem on our old house renovation.
After carefully cleaning all of our old shellaced trim, baseboards, windows, etc, I came back and hit them with a thin cut of garnet shellac. When it dried it too was incredibly shiny. Four rooms worth and it looked like crap.
Not wanting to rub out everything, I tried something and oldtimer mentioned a few years back. We used a diluted rinse of TSP, washing over everything and quickly drying. I have no idea why, but the TSP knocked down the shine almost instantly.
After that, I used extra fine steel wool and a clear wax, and the wood worked looked likely really old, antiqued but clean wood again.
Try a small sport as a sample first, but it worked wonders for us.
BTW, when I later re-shellaced trim in another room I used shellac flattener. Mixed up a few samples until I got just what I wanted. I think I got it from Jeff Jewitt's site.
Good luck.,
Some good ideas there. I'll try them. Thanks