I’m looking at building some book cases and not sure on estimating between rabbeting the shelves into the sides or rabbeting metal tracks into the sides. In my mind they seem to be about the same amount of work, just a matter of preference – fixed or adjustable. But then, I was wrong once before and it could happen again. so, I’m doing myself a big favor and asking for advice. Any feedback on this?
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If you rabbit in the tracks you only need a total of four rabbits, they're vertical so you don't see the ends of them (where there may be some tear-out), and they don't have to be nearly as precise.
Plus you can adjust the shelves.
The down side is that sometimes the shelf clips won't stay put very well, but that's a function of the quality of the clips and tracks, and worst case a dab of crazy glue will fix it.
Making a dado (which is what I think you meant) for tracks has got to be easier, but people rarely take advantage of that feature. Just my personal preference, but I think fixed shelves look nicer.
Have you considered shelf pins? Better looking than metal tracks and still adjustable. And probably easier once you make a template for boring the holes.
"Making a dado (which is what I think you meant) for tracks"
Actually, this would be a groove, or plough, since it's with the grain. But that's just me bein' way too picky! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Groove or plough it is.
I like picky.
You're not picky, you're just right. Two different things.
"since it's with the grain. "
You wanna be picky? Hunh?
what direction is the grain running on MDF?
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BUT-
you fergot the <G>
how are we s'posed to tell?
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Just think of the server space they could save
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I would install metal shelf standards in the DADO, after the units are installed. That way the shelves are sure to be level, unlike line boring..View Image
Hey everybody, thanks for all the excellent feedback.
I'm really good at precission work but for some reason (sorted history maybe), I never could grasp estimating, timing, and such - a real thorn in my business side.
After reading all the posts here, I've decided the pegs is the way to go. I've seen the metal gromets (is that the right term?) used to finish the peg holes, and they look pretty nice. Tracks may be a bit ugly for the project at hand, open book shelving in the dining room turned library.
The job isn't big enough to justify any specialty tools, 'cept maybe the $30 rockler jig. If they insist on fixed shelving, I'll just double the price of the whole project. If that doesn't sway them toward adjustable pegs, at least I'll be sure to make a decent profit. But I feel best about using pegs. Simple, precise, nice looking. Yep, pegs it will be.
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<I>"I've seen the metal gromets (is that the right term?) used to finish the peg holes..."</I>Usually referred to as shelf pins and sleeves. Not sure where you're located, but there are 1/4" and 5mm sizes to be had. I've used both, but in the US 1/4" is more common.For the jig, a scrap piece of MDF can be used. If you were to up your production then a jig might make better sense. Back to the jig...if you buy one make sure it'll work with whatever standard you use...either the 1/4" or the 5mm.When buying in bulk I buy pins and sleeves from woodworkers hardware or HDL. Sister companies, WWH for retail, HDL for wholesale.
I still do line holes on the drillpress. I drill a scrap block and clamp it to a fence, with the hole at 35mm from the bit. Using a dowel or steel pin, or a drill bit..I can then register the next holes ( aftre the first one) with the pin, I do that mostly to make a template, but have used it for finish cab sides as well.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Good technique. In my continual efforts to procrastinate, now I don't drill until after the carcasses are up, installed, and the face frames are on. Wonder what else I can put off until tomorrow...
"I've decided the pegs is the way to go. I've seen the metal gromets (is that the right term?) used to finish the peg holes, and they look pretty nice."Yes, the nicer ones are furniture jewelry. Can really dress it up.The first time I did it that way, I drilled something like one ever inch or so. All that does is create work and crowd things and add to the cost. Going about every 1-1/2 to 1-3/4" is plenty, and start 12" or so off the bottom, same at top.
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That's a good point about the spacing. Every inch is definately overkill for most situations and just plain doesn't look good. Also, keeping them 12" from the top and bottom.
I won't mention the jewelry reference around my wife, as she won't even hear the cabinet part. =]See my work at TedsCarpentry.comBuy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net
IIRC, the 35 MM cabinetry is built around that number, Hinge cups are that size, and the multiple line bores are as well. thats just about 1 3/8th
35x .03937 = 1.37795 "
1 3/8= 1.3750"
close enough for me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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They kill Prophets, for Profits.
If you're going to tool up, or go to the trouble of making a jig, you might as well go with the 32mm system.It's a pretty good spacing, not too close, not too far apart, and the spacing doesn't matter at all EXCEPT for those occasions when it's handy to use the 32mm system. Cabinets line-bored on 32mm centers work with euro hardware, and you never know, you might want to play around with that module, if not on most jobs, at least on some job, some time in the future.AitchKay
"for some reason (sorted history maybe)"LOL, I'm thinking that if you had your history neatly sorted, you'd have a good handle on estimating.Sordid history maybe?
;)
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"what direction is the grain running on MDF?"
LOL - any way it wants to!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Neither. Use battens. Face the shelves with some 1-1/2X 3/4" solid wood to conceal the 3/4" battens. Stiffens them up too. Two screws per batten. HO can adjust as they see fit and you don't get them damn little pins or clips falling out. Plus, you can use scrap...
Does your customer want fixed or adjustable shelves? If they want fixed, dados in the sides are the way to go.
If they want adjustable shelves, then the tracks would work if you like the look (I don't, BTW - lol). I do all of my adjustable shelves with pins and drill the holes with a $30 jig I got from Rockler. I can probably drill the pin holes faster than you can cut the dados and mount the tracks.
I made my own jig.
I bored holes at one inch increments through a strip of 3/4" mdf to accept a router plate bushing. then clamp that guide onto the cabinet sides and bore the holes with a plunge router.
simple, fast and accurate and a cleaner cut than a drill bit
Mav--I use 1/4" pegboard for a template and drill the holes with a brad point bit. Smoother holes with less splintering than a regular twist drill. Bill
tell you what, that is the way I used to do it. and I'm a stickler about sharpening drill bits.
try it my way. there is no comparison
Neither, use a dovetail saw and make hand cut notches for the adjustable shelving... nothing to it.
I'm glad you posted that picture. I was visioning a slide in dovetail slot.
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I like that method, I've used it a couple of times.
Anybody have any experience with the "U" shaped wire pieces where the two short legs of the "U" get inserted into holes in the sides of the carcass and the long part of the "U" goes in a groove cut in the edgs of the shelf?
Flimsy? Sturdy?
View Image
I think it depends on the level of work being done. I've always considered tracks to be utility or mid-grade work. For better work I've always thought that pins or well designed and executed battens were the better way to go.
I'm just finishing up a set of built-ins, the center case has fixed shelves, the two side cases are adjustable, with pins and sleeves.
If shelf pins are to be used, I do think the shelf has to fit well, as the shelf helps in holding the pins secure.
If the shelf is a bit loose, then battens might be the better way to go.
In the in-progress photo below, the back wall is a little less that 14' wide and a little less than 10' tall. Paint-grade work. Birch ply and poplar face frames. Open holes in the baseboard area are for drawers. The center shelves are about 62" wide (2" thick with steel reinforcement), the side shelves are 32" wide (1-1/4" thick).
View Image
Inletting the metal tracks is far faster. Fewer dadoes, and less precision needed lining up for assembly.
A third option is drilling for metal plug supports. With a jig, this is not hard.
When I dado the shelves in permanent, it is for a moveable unit generally, as this makes it stronger.
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If you really need adjustability, my choice is the Festo plunge router with the perforated guide rail. The holes are WAY clean, and there's no problem with chip/dust buildup/clogging.
But adjustable shelves rarely get adjusted. Once in ten years, maybe.
I built 114 bookcases in a classy campus bookstore back in '94. The architect scared me with his 3' to 4' spans, and wouldn't shrink them for me.
1 1/4" birch ply solved my deflection problems, and, for joinery, I decided to go with Confirmat screws. Sort of a cross between a screw and a dowel, the ones I used were 7mm in diameter. That's over 1/4" of steel!
I use a Zentrix rig -- sort of a plunge-router attachment for a drill -- to bore the holes.
The 50mm-long Confirmats don't suck things up tight enough. That's because the special drills are oversize to prevent splitting. The 70mm-long screws are harder to find, but they're the ones to use. They're pretty inexpensive -- Rockler sells the 50mms for $7.50/c. Haafele caries the 70s.
14 years later, that job still looks like a million bucks. The shelves haven't sagged, the joints are still tight, the cherry trim and the end-panels have mellowed to a nice contrast with the light birch shelves, and who's to know I just butted everything together?
AitchKay
While it's true that adjustable shelves are seldom adjusted, I've never met a customer who didn't want them. - lol
While it's true that adjustable shelves are seldom adjusted, I've never met a customer who didn't want them
True enough. Most people don't know what they will put on the shelves until they are done and the owner starts filling them. They may only adjust them once, but can't specify spacing ahead of time. I know when I build shelves for some vague purpose ("we need someplace to put all this stuff!"), I don't know what spacing to use, so adjustable it is.
True, if they don't adjust them for 10 years, there is still the first time. I think maybe I should make it a standard practice, unless otherwise requested. Also saves the HO from having to make the decission when in doubt. See my work at TedsCarpentry.comBuy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net
"Wabbit twacks?!?"
"Yes doc, but it ain't wabbit season. It's dodo season."
"Don't you mean dado season?"
"Either way doc, as long as it ain't wabbit season". ()()
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That's real close to what I cobbled up for making the template for assembled cabs, or lining out sides before assy.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I used that setup for a long time, before that I used the pegboard method. I worked in a cabinet shop and they hand a nice line boring machine and if you can afford one, why not. I think the best thing to come along in awhile is the Festool rail system. I like it, it's quick and easy to me.http://www.josephfusco.org
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Edited 11/16/2008 5:11 pm ET by Joe
Yup, I too ran a 13 spindle borer, for a store fixture/display manufacturer, I got good at sharpening 5mm brad point bits, free hand on a grinder. We were drilling MCP with T-moulded edges..lousey job.
Fest tool is still abit outta my reach, being as I don't do that much casework any more, and I do have the EZ rails and router guide, but even all that stuff is just collecting dust lately.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
On the pegs, I know I have definite bises, from better than a decade in a semi-custom cabinet shop.
My least fave are the plastic ones with metal pegs. Sure, they are a good value, and even better in lots of 1000, but they are junk all too often. Pins not square to the plastic; plastic with burrs or voids, and so on. Worse yet, the pins never seem to be all the same diameter, 4.5mm, 4.9mm, even 5.1mm--but never 5mm that fits a 5mm hole.
Better to get the all metal pins with a "paddle" end on them. They also come finished dark to be less obvious when installed, too.
My real preference are the "stepped" metal pins with a vertical metal pin. Sure, that means needing to bore the bottoms of the shelves, but, with well-fitted shelves in a well-made bit of casework, that's really the best peg to use in my book.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Well, I've got the drill press. The jig looks simple enough. I just wasn't sure whether I want to do the pegs before or after assembly. But of course before would be better.See my work at TedsCarpentry.comBuy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net
Well, that's a good start ;-). I had also resorted to, on occasion to just mark the locations of the pins on the work piece and just use the drill press to drill the holes without the jig.It's slightly less accurate but a bit faster.http://www.josephfusco.org
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I know myself. I'd best take a little longer and make the jig. =]See my work at TedsCarpentry.comBuy Cheap Tools! BuildersTools.net