Sherwin Williams formula change?
GoldenWreckedAngle
| Posted in General Discussion on
I’ve specified Sherwin Williams Promar 200 for our house but I’ve had two painters tell me they no longer use S.W. because the paint is not covering or flowing as well as it used to.
We have specified Promar 200 for years but paints are reformulated all the time. Has anyone else experienced problems with S.W. recently?
(Before anyone suggests it – there is no Benjamin Moore dealer in Abilene)
Replies
Hey kevin,
how long ago was the formula changed? We have been doing our inside and outside with SW and have been very happy. Not sure it would compare with a professional's opinion, but I was disappointed in the exterior primer BM has. Much happier with SW. Loved the pics... especially the pseudo-limb....gotta love it!
Thanks - I don't know that the formula was changed, that's what I'm asking. According to these two professional painters, "it's sort of an insider knowledge thing" that S.W. is crap all of a sudden. "None of the local guys are still using it."
That may be true of residential painters but I've called several of the "insiders" who paint our commercial designs and they've all told me S.W. is still the best. However, I really respect these two painter's opinions so I thought I'd float it out here to see if I can substantiate their claims in any way.
I did talk to another residential painter friend who told me he quit using S.W. because the local dealers were morons. Apparently it got to the point where he had to open every can before he left the store to make sure it was right so he finally switched to Kelly Moore. I did have several of the painters I talked to confirm that problem.
I'm wondering if they might be filling the Promar buckets with a cheaper paint or something. The commercial guys order in large enough quantities they may be getting the real deal where the smaller, special color orders are getting monkeyed with.
Hmmmm.... There's got to be something behind it. These are not the kind of guys who just pull this sort of thing out of thin air to look smart.
I'm gonna bump this so it doesn't get missed by some of you guys who may just be getting home from a long day on the end of a brush.
Why don't you call someone at Sherwin Williams? Don't ask the local store manager, get someone in technical support at the manufacturer.
Reformulations usually result in the manufacturer giving the new product a new name.
Gene , I thought that too but you know they are not going to admit to sh*t.
Tim Mooney
I talked to the local and the next one up - Nothing.
Sherwin Williams is sponsoring a luncheon for our local AIA chapter next Thrusday. I'll twist their arms a little more when I have them there in person.
I just used their exterior SuperPaint. I didn't think it lived up to the SW reputation at all. It didn't flow out like a high quality paint. Brush marks are everywhere. I bought it because I wanted something that could be applied at 50 degrees, and I was satisfied with it for that reason alone.
I find this odd, being something of a Sherwin fan. I also like PM200 pretty well. The formula did change, just when, I haven't the foggiest, but within the last year. But my spin on it is I like it even better now. It flows better, covers better, brushes better. It's not Cashmere yet, but it went that direction.
I have no idea what's stuck in the craw of your painter(s). But I too am a little finicky. It has to "feel" right coming off the brush, a completely subjective evaluation. If a formula changed and the new "feel" didn't rub me right, I don't think I'd much care whether the formula itself was better or worse. It could be something as simple as that.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
PPG is next in line . Do you have that store? Kelly Moore is not in SW class , but its a good contractor paint.
Tim Mooney
Edited 11/9/2004 6:31 pm ET by Tim Mooney
Sherwin Williams, Kelly Moore, Coronado (heard good things), and Pittsburgh are the heavy hitters here. I think I'm going to go with Sherwin Williams but I may have one of the high volume contractors do me a favor and order it for me just in case there's something funny going on in the back room at the local dealership.
On a similar note, have any of you tried the new S.W. "Super Paint?" Supposedly it's got a higher solids content and some real premium binders but the name just comes off as a "gimick" to me.
have any of you tried the new S.W. "Super Paint?"
I have, in my Handyman business. And I don't like it. But my dislike may be related to how I use paint.
As a handyman, I get a LOT of very small jobs, many of which require a very small paint project as the final step.
When I used the superpaint, it had lumps/strings in it after about the third time I opened the can. Maybe this is related to the extra solids and premium binders that you mention. But for me it was a real problem.
I now use Duron paints (and yes, I'm aware that Duron was recently bought by SW).
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I had heard that promar 200 had been "improved"..but I haven't used it for awhile.
When I started reading this I was going to suggest trying the SuperPaint, especially for your own house. It is a small step above the 200 and does have a higher binder content, something like 13% to 200's 9% The difference is that the SuperPaint was designed for consumer use and doesn't spatter as much as the 200,it's more intended for brush & roll. The downside is that it doesn't spray as well as the 200..so it depends how it's going to be applied.
the Classic 99 & SuperPaint are basically the consumer series, while the ProMar 200, 400 and 700 are the Contractor Grade. i heard somewhere that ProMar stands for profit Margin <g>
for my own house, i might even consider paying the extra bucks and step up to SW's Cashmere line, it compares to PPG's Manor Hall
Barry E-Remodeler
Ive done a lot of painting in the past and Im not doing it right now , so Im actually learning what you guys are saying about the different models of paint. I have no clue what paints are like today.
However , I did do it for part of my living and at one time it was nearly exclusive. I watched my dollars closely. I bought a lot of different paints. I didnt want to spend any more than it took to do the job right. Right doesnt always mean quality. I remember spraying ceilings and closets with a cheaper grade. Then spend the dollars on the walls and the trim. It pays to switch paint . I did a lot of commercial work and found that somtimes thinning a good paint was cheaper . Sounds like Im a cheapo, but apartments dont deserve high quality paint . High end homes do. More coats can be applied in a days time means a better pay check.
Ive done a lot of small jobs too and I respect what you are saying about thick paints. Sometimes you need the binders and sometimes its a set back to finishing a job. As someone else mentioned spraying paints and rolling paints are two different paints. Sounds redundant , but HLVP and good covering thin paints were the answer to small work.
PPG did make a good covering wall paint that wanted to be sprayed.
Tim Mooney
I agree with your post regarding the different paints and uses completely. I started as a 3rd generation painter 30 some years ago, doing mostly new residential and commercial. Now I remodel, so there's a lot more brushing & rolling. It amazes me how many more choices of paint there are today compared to then.
I also remember the stories told by my grandfather and dad..using lead powder and other materials to make their own paint each morning. no airless, no rollers..it was interesting
Tim:
OT, but do you know where Hatfield, Arkansas is? My nephew is headed that way to visit some friends. He used to be an Associate Pastor at one of the churches there
Barry E-Remodeler
No , Ive never heard of Hatfield . Must be small.
Tim Mooney
In our city SW never opens a can to check the color.
Box stores do, 100%??????
maybe SW trusts the mix machine, or maybe lazy.
small? i think it's like 3 or 400 people. <g>
I think it's about 50 miles south of Ft. Smith
Barry E-Remodeler
<The downside is that it doesn't spray as well as the 200>
I used superpaint on my house and sprayed it w/titan 440 with no
problems. What do you mean it doesn't spay well?
First.. I'm talking about SuperPaint interior, not exterior. It's not that it can't be sprayed, it's just not what it was formulated for.
I'm not an expert on the chemicals, but from what I've heard and read, some paints add modifiers which thicken the paint and give it more "drag"...which slows down the spread rate...which helps with coverage when brush & rolling. Those modifiers also help by reducing paint splattering, off the roller and helps to minimize brush & roller marks.
This makes the paint thicker..or stickier, making it better suited to one method of application over the other.
Barry E-Remodeler
Kevin, we use Sw ProMar and ben. Moore exclusively in the bldg. I work in. We have a painting comtractor that preffers the BM because he gets a Better price from them than he does SW.
We do the small jobs ourself, and just bought SW ProMar 200 series for one of them. Every thing we paint is the same color and gloss, so it is easy to touchup and/or repaint. I am no professional painter, but other than the price differances, I can't tell the differance between what we used last week and what we used last year.
Other than cost, I did notice that Sw is now dropped the Satin designation for low sheen coatings and calls them all Eg Shell. Gloss and sheen describtors mean little unless you know how it is determined for each brand of paint you look at.
Reaching way back to my days as a lab tech. in a product development lab for a paint company, if things haven't changed to much, reformulation of almost all paints is a constant. In the industry it is known as PIP (profit improvement projects). Coupled with new product development and marketing, it is the only way to stay competative in the industry. That is true for trade sales products and industrial coatings.
So, bottom line , is yes Sw has probably changed it formulation, but they have been doing that for years, and knowone has noticed it. What they did notice was the price change. Most changes do not negatively impact the product performance. That would quickly cause a loss of market share, something that is hard to regain in the highly competative trade sales market.
Dave
"PIP (profit improvement projects)."
<g> that's good. I remember when we used to buy a lot of paint... every so often, when coverage started lagging, my dad would talk to someone at the paint company..and a "new" formulation of the paint would come about, to be repeated once or twice yearly.
A good PIP seemed to be titanium dioxide decreasing and extenders increasing.
Barry E-Remodeler
Edited 11/10/2004 8:54 am ET by Barry E
Hiding test are done on a black and white gloss paper, or metal substrate. The paint is applied at the recommended thickness (dry film measured in mils), and a subjective eyeball is used to determine the hiding property. The tighter the margin on the product, the farther away you stand from the sample to make you hiding estimate :)
Back durring the first energy crisis, reformulations were being done so fast that we couldn't get through an accelerated weathering test to see if the changes would hold up before we changed it agian.
I imagine that same stuff is going on now with oil prices as high as it is.
Dave
I didnt read the rest of the post so dont know if anyone said this or not. I usually use evergard. it seems ill going in buy a gallon of aklyd primer or paint and when i need to get some more, i go back and they tell me that they stopped making it. because of aqmd ( air quality management district) changed or tightened the requirements for environmental regs. anyway it kinda sucks.
ou know it amazes me that here in Calif and Im sure its the same in Texas they have all these environmental laws and I can go 80 miles up I 5 to mexico and get everything they outlaw here and they use it there. so whats the advantage. Like the air in mmexico stays there and doesnt cross the border or sumptim
Darkworksite4: I'm RonT and I have approved this message
What are the "pros" here pay for the PM200? The reason I'm asking is because I believe the shelf price (MSRP) is more than $20/gal, but we get it for a LOT less (using friend's account - he only goes through thousands of galons of it in a year).
I get a 30% "specifier's" discount because every time I write a new spec they sell a bunch of paint.
Actual Installers probably get a better break but here's my cost:
$99.01/ 5 Gal. for primer
$111.26/ 5 Gal. for eggshell top coat
Looks like my friend's pricing is pretty awsome - just over $6/gal for BuilderCraft primer, PM200 ~$10-11, PM400 - under $10. Heck, last time we purchased some ProClassic alkyd for trim, we paid only $20/galon!!!!
Ron, California started driving the air quality regulations for the rest of the country durring the early 70s, with its' "Rule 66" requlations. Major paint manufactures all over the country had to meet Rule 66 emmission standards to sell any products in your republic.
Not that it was a bad thing, but like you said, some of it just doesn't make sense.
EPA regulations that are founded on solutions to area specific air quality problems and applied across the board to the rest of the country cost everyone. Manufactures then just move across the boarder to Mexico and thumb thier noses at the EPA, while you still have to hold your nose to live a few hundred miles away from them.
Dave
Yes the formula to the paint you use on a daily basis changes without your knowledge every year this includes how fast it dries it's hang Time and self-leveling properties
Where were you 20 years ago?