I have a question regarding roof valleys. Techniques seem to vary as to location. I have alwys been a fan of what I call “open valleys” using W type metal valley material. Guess I am old school. Most often I use alum. fastened with alum nails in slots I punch to allow for some movement. I see a lot of “closed” valleys around here. (Northeast Ohio) I have never been a big fan of them but the rain and ice guard is great insurance when doing a closed valey.
I am interested in your thoughts on the best valley material and if metal the thickness or gauge and width you like to use. Does anybody use stainless?
Thanks for your thoughts.
Replies
i mainly do slate roofing and convert a lot of old closed valleys to tapered open valleys.
20 oz. copper or lead coated would be my preference. start with a 24" sheet- 12" on each side of center line. I use a single bend, not a W valley. I normally leave a tapered exposure of 8" at top to 9" at the bottom. Lock it onto a drip edge of like material.
i can send you a shutterfly album if you like of the steps involved.
I prefer to use w valleys with icegaurd underneath as well.
in the past I liked to bend the w valleys on site with my brake---but most of the coil stock now( aluminum)is so thin
I actually buy the pre-bent w valleys now from willoughby supply. I buy 10 ft. sheets of unbent valley stock for chimneys.
also--starting to have some luck now selling copper valleys and chimneys---helps to have some samples of the copper and the aluminum in hand to show the prospects--------- be warned though--the white vinyl siding crowd does not appreciate copper!!! LOL.
Have not tried stainless yet----don't see an advantage over copper-----.
stephen
Hazlett""I buy 10 ft. sheets of unbent valley stock for chimneys."" Not sure I understand what you mean by that statement. Are you using it for chimney step flashing?
chimney counter flashing------though I will probably be cutting it up and using it for step flashing as well-----as the pre-bent step flashings are getting really cheezy thin now as well
We mostly do copper valleys (16 oz) from 18" stock. We're not dealing with the snow loads slateman is so narrower valleys are adequate. 6" is the max metal we leave showing. I'm not a big fan of "W" valleys unless there's unequal slopes on either side of the valley.
We bend a half inch hem on either side of the valley and use clips locked into the hem and nailed to the roof to allow for expansion.
When we do closed valleys, we use I&WS underneath them.
Never used stainless.
http://grantlogan.net/
Thanks for starting this thread.
A couple guys have been bugging me to do something similar.
There was an article in the magazine a couple of years ago detailing several ways to run valleys.
By closed valley, do you mean still using metal under the shingles? I have done metal valleys several ways. I like to use I&W for any kind of valley. Before the ice and water shiled came along, we always used 90# roll to back up a valley, or in some situations, a double ply of 30# paper.
I like a W valley best, with the edges having a return to divert the excess water. A W valley makes for a neat closed valley no matter what kind of materials you are roofing with. A wider one can make a good open valley too.
The only time I think that an open valley is really necessary is when there is a lot of pine needle type trash that settles on a roof.
valley styles do vary by location butI don't know if that is based on predominant cliomate or not.
I will be back to this thread again with some more valley types.
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Thanks for your input Piffin. My definition of a closed valley is one that is made using the same shingles as the roof. It can be a "lay over style" or a "weave". As far as what is underneath this style valley..............I have seen anything from #15 felt paper, to heavier paper, to roll roofing, to ice and snow guard, to metal. It seems to depend on the roofers quality standards to some degree.
In my definition an open valley is metal either broken to a V or a W. I have seen installs anywhere from 12" wide to 36' wide. I think the right answer is 18'" or 24" wide. Material can vary as can thickness. I guess I see alum qute a bit.
Around here (Ohio) it seems the higher end homes are closed valleys. I guess the homeowners don't like the look of the metal. I prefer the metal myself. I think debris washes out better. They are easier to repair if damaged. Maybe easier to install too, at least for me. Why put a five cent valley on a ten dollar roof?
I am interested in your opinion as well as others. Thanks.
Mike L.
Refering to the article, I reshingled last year using the new style closed valley. Seems to be working ok, although I did have some of the little asphalt rocks on my deck this spring which is underneath one of the valleys, although this would probably be common on any valley, esp closed.
I am curious what is it that you refer to as new style closed valley?I started roofing in '68 with my first one and have torn off roofs as old as from the 1920s and have yet to find a "new" style
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The article calls it a long island valley written by Mike Guertin-he calls it new
I'm from Long Island, and yea open valleys are a rarity around here.
Even wood shingle valleys are done "closed" with a 12x12 metal "step", ( lead-coated copper is best) at each course as you go up the valley.
Asphalt is done with weather-watch first, then one side of the valley up 12" or so up the other side, and the next section cut to fit over them in an inch or so off the center of the valley.
Why look at a metal valley for twenty or thirty years ? The closed valley seems to last the life of the shingles, with the paper or base sheet as insurance to boot.
But I dson't have that articlew. Neither do half the people reading this. I was hoping you ould give some sort of description of it.I do vagiuely remember Mike saying something about a new style but thinking "Well, it is only new to him." So I still don't know whih syle you are referring to.if I chase around my head longf enough I am thinking maybe it is the one where the first side is laid across like with a typoical lapped valley then a cchaulk line marks the center and a row of shingles is laaid on the opposite side of the valley with the butts at the chaulk line. Then the other side of the valley is run with the tips just coming to the valley so that no ccutting is needed.
That can be handy for heavy arcchy shingles that are so hard to cut. but to my mind it looks poor. something to use on a three storey house where you don't have to see it close.
I hae done it that way for cedar shingles, but overall, I don't care for it.
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I see. To me a closed vallley was a metal valley but with the shingles cut to the center line instead of leaving metal open and exposed in the center. Another way of doing that is one I only learned after nearly twenty years of roofing. To do it, you use individual pieces of flashing similar to step flashing. You cut from a roll ten or twelve inches wide.Let';s say the roll is 12" wide, so you cut a 12" square and break it diagonally enough to crease it.You run ice and water shield down the valley as backup and strike a chaulk line in the center.
Then you shingle up equally from both sides to the valley and with each pair of shingles you place a piece of the flashing with the crease on the chalk line over theupper portion of the shingles. Then you lay the next pair, cutting them at the center line to meet each other, set another piece of flsashing, and repeat the process.
I learned that first on a slate roof job and was told that was necessary for slate work tho I would disagree. Later, I saw it used here on this island with regular composition shingles.This step flashed valley is the slowest way of doing it that I have ever used, but it does look very good in the end. I have less confidence in this at less than a 5/12 pitch.Another way of getting the same look and doing the work easier is to use the V-crimp of the full length that you mentioned, but shingling right into the crimp to cut.One thing most novices have to continually be reminded of is to NEVER EVER EVER drive a nail into the vally metal. That is poking a hole in the item that is intended to carry great volumns of water without letting any into the house. The most common vally leak is from beginners and hacks who have driven nails fromthe shingles into the metal. All nails have to be kept back at the edge.
Even with a non metal treatment all nails should be kept back a good 8" from centerline.
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Doesn't sound like you've ever laid an open copper valley with slate shingles.
There is no way possible to do an open valley with slate and not have some nails thru the sheet. They are back far enough so that leakage is not possible.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhqz-I
The only slate work I've done was with that step flash style I mentioned a few posts back. That was one reason given why it needed to be done that way - to keep the nails out of the valley. Thesse were closed valleys - no metal showing, but the edge of that metal is still only as far back as your nailing.
it might be better to say that no naiuls shoud be placed ccloser than eight inhes to the center.In florida, we used asbestos tiles and cement tiles too that were essentially the same paattern run as slate is. We dried in with two plly of 30#, set a 20" V crimped valley, then used plastic cement to bed a run of 4" membrane on the edge of the metal and topped it off again. So the seal was about 3" down on the ten inch side, leaving about 7" more or less of free metal. The tiles would be laid with 2" of that metal showing on each side.
No nails were in the bare metal, only in the mudded in membrane edge.
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Edited 4/19/2007 8:51 pm ET by Piffin
Walter,
It took awhile to get your album down to look at. That copper open valley is done just about the same way I was describing we did the open metal valleys with the asbestos tiles in Florida, with two variations. You leave far more open metal showing.
And you use ice and water shield to seal the edge instead of the mud and membrane we used to use.It lso seems like you have a wider valley metal to start with to get that wide exposure. It looks like you I&W over about 4".So even if you do have to use a nail in a short slate into the metal, it is sealed by the I&W and it is further back away from the water coursing in the center run of the metal than any typical valley I have ever done.
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I have been following this thread because I was one of those "bugging" Piffin on the 6 ways to do valleys. (having known only 5 myself)
This is what I come up with for methods Shingle only, No metal: 1)Woven 2)One side run long, other side laps over and cut to a straight line 3)deleted for an edit, see belowEDIT: seeyou's description is much better than mine was for this method....""The shingle laid parallel to the valley is not laid upside down. It's laid right side up and the horizontal shingles coming into the valley are cut where their bottom corner hits the bottom edge of the "valley" shingle. This leaves a triangle of the "valley" shingle exposed on each course."" Stilletto also has posted nice pics of this method. 4) I&W or 90lb. material laid in valley , shingles brought to
center and cut tight. Metal / Shingle: 1) Metal (with or without "W") laid into valley , shingles brought
tight to the center of valley. 2) Metal (with or without "W") laid in valley , shingles laid to
predetermined line leaving some metal open ( can have a variation
with the open drainage path wider at the bottom than the top) 3) Metal used as shingles as courses going up the valley as opposed
to a full run of valley metal. The new one for me is the metal used as shingles. I can understand some reasoning for it and will tuck it into the memory banks. Any More ways out there? 7 so far is my count. I am sure there are variations on these basic six, or at least suspect there are.
Edited 4/20/2007 6:41 pm by dovetail97128
>>>>>>>>>>>>3)One side run long, a run of shingles laid tops into the valley and then the overlay brought to the line of the shingle tops.The shingle laid parallel to the valley is not laid upside down. It's laid right side up and the horizontal shingles coming into the valley are cut where their bottom corner hits the bottom edge of the "valley" shingle. This leaves a triangle of the "valley" shingle exposed on each course.>>>>>>>4) I&W or 90lb. material laid in valley , shingles brought to
center and cut tight.Can't imagine anyone actually using this method with I&WS and I've never seen 90 lb used as a valley material in my neighbor hood. With asphalt shingles there's only two methods I see commonly used: Metal exposed or closed. With specialty roofs, there's many alternatives, some functional, some cosmetic. My favorite treatment for cedar shingle valleys for instance, is to nail a 1x12 down the center of the valley and curve each course of shingles through it.http://grantlogan.net/
seyou,
What you said about the shingle right side up and the overlay shingles being cut the way describe is what I had in my minds eye. Just bad writing on my part, thanks fo rthe clarification. I have seen the 90# valley , but have never done it. Your technique with the 1x12, if I understand you.... it is a type of weave using the 1x12 to flatten the valley? If not I cannot picture what it looks like.
Heres how I have been doing closed valleys for a few years.
View Image
View Image
Yeah, we've been doing it that way a long time, as well. That's what I was trying to describe. We also use that technique with open valleys. Run the "valley" shingle up each side at the desired reveal and rock on. Very clean lines and if the shingles have the sealant on the bottom edge like most dimensionals, you get an extra seal at the valley.http://grantlogan.net/
You done with that job yet?http://grantlogan.net/
I like that type of valley it's faster, cleaner lines and no one is in the valley with a hook blade. Scrap is also cut way down.
We are winding down on phase one of that project finally. It has been a joke. The truss guys would set 5 trusses a day. The sheeting guys would would put 10 sheets a day on, none of the sheeted sections tied into each other. So drying in was impossible.
They would pack up at 3:30 each day, even if that meant leaving 1 sheet out at the top or in the valley somewhere.
By the end of next week it should be done. Next winter phase two starts, another 800 square or so. I start soffitt and fascia beginning of May there 5,000 lineal ft. So I'll be there awhile.
Why don't you lay Dale and Duane off next winter and send them up here.
So if you call somebody an idiot and he come over your house and stomp you into a mud puddle and walk you dry, hey its your fault.
>>>>>Why don't you lay Dale and Duane off next winter and send them up here. Why don't you come down here next winter? We've been dealing with a couple of framing crews that need a little switching as well.http://grantlogan.net/
>>>Why don't you come down here next winter? We've been dealing with a couple of framing crews that need a little switching as well.<<<
Be careful what you wish for, I might just do that.
So if you call somebody an idiot and he come over your house and stomp you into a mud puddle and walk you dry, hey its your fault.
Did you deliberately run your shingles of course to achieve a certain look? I have been reading this post with interest; the only technique I have used is to run one side long and bring the other to the centerline, all over I&W.
I stumbled upon this method by pure dumb luck.
I was shingling a valley running one side through the valley, I had started running the other side through. I had a pile of shingles laying in the valley, I ran out of nails and got up to get some, when I looked down I saw this rough pattern laying there.
I messed with it a little to see how it would look and really liked it.
I keep doing it out of pure economics and cosmetics. The valley line is as straight as possible.
I have Ice and Water shield under all that mess of shingles.
So if you call somebody an idiot and he come over your house and stomp you into a mud puddle and walk you dry, hey its your fault. ---Brownbagg
WOW, I really like that look. I don't do much roofing but the last one I did was weaving my first laminated shingle valley. I figured the best way was to run one side long and cut the other side to the centerline. Your way looks much neater.
I would not count the 90# with shingles cut to center line. Never saw that and would never accept it. I wouldn't expect it to last but about five years iif you are lucky.
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some more comments on what you said ---I hate AL valley metal unless it is the painted coil stock. Plain mill finish that is commonly sold as valley rolls is very weak and will degrade quickly. Some say it it the right thing to use because it will not rust, but it will still corrode. I have seen AL that has been up for only ten years that I can push a knuckle through, or cut a slice with my fingernail. It becomes brittle - maybe from acid rain or other corrupting influences.Most of my work is fairly high end so I use 16oz CU, 20oz CU, or lead coated CU broke as a W valley with returns.I'm not sure how to comment on your thought that metal is easier to repair if damaged. I've never seen a valley of any kind that is "easy" to repair. You have two choices - squirt some Geocel in and pray, or tear up the valley and redo it.I agree with you taht the metal less valleys are a bad choice, especially with the newer laminated architectural shingles. when a shingle is flexed across the valley to weave or to lapp, the shingle is likely to ewither break or to separate the laminations at the headlap line, leading to leaks that are impossible to find. I also dislike intensely the thickness and shadow created by the underlying shingles creating a bulge in the surface. To me, it looks sloppy. There is an advantage in a lapped valley when the pitches are different one from the other. but that can be dealt with using the W valley to divert water flow. You have a similar problemm sometimes with doghouse dormers. The larger volumn of water from the larger roof can influence the flow in the valley of the dormer so lapped or W valleys there are important to use, IMO.
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http://www.rooferscoffeeshop.com/show_album_photo.asp?userid=81&AlbumID=544&file=3845&s=0
This is my last valley i tink i did a pretty good job;)
That is nice work. You may be inducted into the roofers Hall of Shame. You do need to work on keeping your courses straight. They show a little ugly at the ridge. I have heard of guys measuring and using a chalk line every three courses or so. Mind you I don't do it.....just heard about it. One last thing............the color match is a little suspect. You may want to paint the new area with roof paint. Try a small test spot first, maybe 10' X 10'. Around here they call that a square. Mike L
LOL
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Another alternative.
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
I would like to see but picture is too big for me.
View Image
Thanks.
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
Thanks for that.
Openvalley roofs aren’t your only option. There are several styles of closed roof valleys that have the extra layer of flashing covered by shingles in some pattern. However, closed roof valleys generally perform worse than open valleys on most roofs.