I went to look at a Church roof today in the next County over that is having roof problems .
Since it was raining pretty good it was a perfect day for leak detection .
Seems a lot of the building had been shingled in the last few years where once there was metal and slate . These guys were likely skilled shinglers , but lacked some training in metal work and soldering .
I’ll post some of what I saw .
Replies
Another 4 pictures showing some suspect techniques .
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Well the green screws certainly show an artistic( if not skillful) flair anyway.
Life is Good
Dove ,
Taking stock items to use where they shouldn't be used might be artistic , but the leaks persist !
Walter
Great pictures. The main question is: How Much? How much do you charge to guarantee that there won't be a leak after you work on it? Also, what are you proposing in terms of the fix?http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Looks like you've got your work cut out for you there, Walter.
I would 'spect that pretty much everything you photo'd will have to be stripped, flashing and all, to guarantee the work, no?
My only real question is this: Did it ever not leak???
Good luck, I'm sure you'll put it right.
Bing
Edit: meant to address this to the slatesman, sorry Jim
Edited 12/3/2009 7:22 pm ET by Bing187
Bing ,
I've been there for the first time today so I don't know it's history .
I'm guessing that whole inner area was done in galvanized metal , either soldered panels or SS.
I'm sure with lack of maintenance it was leaking badly at times , so they hired some folks to shingle some areas . The bulk of the shingling is fine , but the details are executed poorly .
I'll not try to remove all their aluminum W valley flashings , but rather concentrate on that area where 3 roofs meet , redoing it as I posted to Jim above .
If they accept my quote I'll post how the fix was accomplished .
Thanks , Walter
Jim,
I haven't nailed down how much to charge yet . It was in the 60's here today , but we could have a foot of snow soon .
The fix isn't too tough once you strip back the slates and remove the old galvy valley and extension , and the top length of aluminum W valley . Add new 26 gauge galvy , rivett together , solder with 50 / 50 bar solder , then replace the roofing - both slate and asphalt .
What would you charge ??
Walter
Thats the million dollar question. I'd probably take your quote and double it. I doubt that I'd do it for less. And....I'd only take your quote if you gave me a solid warranty on it and I trusted that you'd be around until the warranty expired. I'm going to guess that you'll need $1500. It's a wild guess..I have no basis for my guess. So, I'd sell that job for 3k and hopefully only have to warrant it for five years or so.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
I meant how much would you charge to do the work yourself ???
I wouldn't agree to do the work myself because I don't have the skill, the tools or the desire. That looks hard!!!!!!!
http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Actually Jim, not hard, just meticulous. I believe that is why Walter is in demand.
All of his posts have shown that he doesn't cut corners and everything is thought out.
To be honest, I don't know anyone around where I live that I would trust to do that repair!
I don't know many who would pay to do that repair, thats why it looks like it does now.
Walter,That looks like a can of worms. If anyone can do it properly, it is you,Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck ,
Yes , but the early bird gets the worm !!
Thats actually a pretty easy job to make watertight . The shingled roof is walkable so access is not hard .
Those types of jobs demand a little more skill and consequently pay fairly well .
I just saw your comments in the archy thread about this site . I opened a link last nite , was horrified , and had lousy dreams . My photo pie is just half gone now .
Best , Walter
I am thinking you are probably correct!
Hard...meticulous....meticulous...hard...Semantics schemantics.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Jim ,
Thats some business model you've got there !
I assume all the risk , do the work and provide all the materials , Travel and equiptment and warranty it -- and you'd expect to make just as much !!
I think I just saw the turnip truck pulling into town !
Heres where you might want to employ my method from Oak River Mikes thread about a second estimate . When you don't have the tools, skill set, or desire to do a job maybe it would be wise to suggest someone they could call .
Walter
Touche...ouch!
I don't actually expect to make "just as much". I make what I make. You seem surprised that someone would want to make a little money on someone else's labor and skills. Maybe you haven't noticed but that has been going on since the first day you picked up a tool. I suspect that this conversation is probably pointless, but I'll continue anyway...If you agreed that you could profitably do that job for 1500, why would you care if I wrote you that check or Joe Schmoe wrote that check? Maybe I'd pay faster than Joe Schmoe....maybe I'd give you five or ten jobs like this each year and Joe would only give you one. If 1500 was the right number for you, why would you care if I could sell it for more? Why would you think you could determine my overhead and profits needs for jobs like that? I really don't understand the turnip truck comment...but I do understand that many tradesmen are angry that other people want to eat and raise their families too. I guess maybe you guys think that you are the only ones that should have turkey on the table for thanksgiving?http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Jim,
I was very wrong to let this thread turn into a business thread from it's start as a roofing thread .
I doubt that you'll get many calls for a situation such as I pictured , so in a sense it is pointless .
I do quote to GC's but I doubt that there's room for them to double my quote.
I seem to remember you and Haz talking about repair work and you insisted that their truck should have no signage -- I guess I see why now .
Walter
here's another viewpoint from a GC...
IF you are subbing to a GC... you don't assume all the risk... the GC does... if you fail to deliver , you are only contracted to the GC... the GC still has to make good on the total contract...
in the past 35 years , the only time I've ever gotten in trouble was due to subcontractor's work.... we've never had a problem with our in-house work
so.. the point is: as a GC there is considerable risk in using Subs.. and to design , bid , execute and collect involves a lot of work that the Sub is now relieved of.. that overhead and risk belongs to the GC
and
RISK = REWARD
one or two of my subs had always had the attitude that GC's were ripping off the customer and the sub.. I've never understood that attitude and the ones that stuck by me eventually came around to see that the relationship was mutually beneficial to all parties: the Sub , the Owner, and the GC
the only business model that I never liked is the PM model.. there , the Project Manager moves the risk to the contractor but makes money for running the job... perhaps on large complicated projects that model works , but most of the time a good GC can run the job , assume all the risk and deliver the contract with lower overhead than a PM set-upMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"in the past 35 years , the only time I've ever gotten in trouble was due to subcontractor's work..."A big AMEN to that, Brother!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree.One of the reasons why I would double the bid on a job that looks like that is because sometimes.....the sub gives me the bid and then decides later that he's underbid it. He then becomes "too busy" to get to that particular job. Or, he "needs more money" for it. Those are some of my real life experiences. After eating a few of these real life disasters, I've learned that the smaller the job, the bigger the markup.http://thewoodshedtavern.com. = no peer mods!
Mike ,
As I just said to Jim , I was totally wrong to let this thread be about the cost and business end of it .
This isn't the type of work where a GC would be involved . A simple roof repair that will take a skilled mechanic to complete .
I totally agree with most of your post about GC's , but I doubt that you're able to markup a subs quote by 100% very often .
I should stay out of business type threads and stick with the pictorials of the craftsmanship side .
Happy Holidays , Walter
Walter... happy holidays to you too
one last point....
i could take that job and hire you and i'd make out... you'd make out ... and the church would make out
suppose you were not in the picture .....
the church still needs roof repairs.. so the committee goes looking for someone.. who do they usually get ?
they get the same hackers who did all the repairs you show in your pics
but if I get the call , I call you up .. we crawl all over that roof.. discuss it... you give me your price.. I write up the proposal and WE get the job
teh church gets it's repairs at a reasonable price.... even if it's TWICE what you would charge
an unreasonable price would be whatever they paid in the past for that crummy work
so..... my 35 years in the business helps me to know who the right sub is for the work... in this case that would be YOu..
and because I'm a GC with a good reputation, the church would know that the guy(s) I put on the job will get the work done correctly
which is part of why my markup is worth it
if they are smart enough to know the difference between you and the ahckers, they don't need me and they can deal directly with you
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike ,
Very excellent points !
How could one not agree with logic like that .
It makes way more sense when you lay it out like that -- thanks .
Cheers , Walter
Mike,Your last line says it all."if they are smart enough to know the difference between you and the ahckers, they don't need me and they can deal directly with you"Walter did start this as a repair thread. Jim marks up roofers that do not speak a lot of Swedish.Chuck SThe sky is falling.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Mike ,
One last note .
Another reason for me to hire Fat Roman to get a website up and running so I get more of those calls that the hackers may be getting .
This is just beyond my normal sphere of influence as real estate brokers would say !!
Best , Walter
heh, heh, heh........
you said "normal sphere"Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You took it out of context -- normal sphere of influence .
Normally I'd never use normal and Sphere in the same sentence . My apologies to Duane !!!
Hey, it AIN'T LiKE I'm not in the ROOM ya know?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Well speak up son , don't just lurk around . I've already apologized once , saving the next one for Blue !!!
I can tell what you'll do to fix that mess.I think I see some cricket adding tho'. Hard to tell from the pics.At least solder or lock them valleys and skip the "W".
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Duane ,
Mike's just agitating a bit <GGG>
If they accept my quote , then I'll be back to illustrate the fix -- if it's possible in the NEW FORUM !
Cheers , Walter
Nooooooooooo, not Mike.What a pisah..LOLBack to bball, we're showing NC what hurt means.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
Better keep a closer eye on that game!!!
Like you, I do NOT use the two terms synominously.
A shingle layer knows how to perform to install the greatest number of shingles in the shortest amt of time.
A roofer knows how to make a good living by keeping the water out and installing a good looking roof.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Paul ,
I don't know if you've progressed in the archy thread about this Church -- and it's being for sale .
The work these other folks have done will have to remain for now , until new owners want a restoration . I'll stop the water intrusion and do a nice install , but that back area is going to remain ugly after I'm done .
Happy Holidays , Walter
walter......overall.. the place is begging for leaks
this valley dumps the water into the sidewall and then slams up against the corner at the bottom
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and ... is the lap wrong ?
the mix of existing trim and vinyl siding and metal flashing extensions ????
i bet you can patch it ..but the building committee should think about a new mortgage on the church and start over
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike ,
Thanks for stopping in.
The Church is up for sale -- has been for a year and a half . They have just dropped the price by 30 grand to 99,900 -- so they aren't looking for a total restoration job .
That front area in the picture you showed doesn;t leak at this time , but it's only a matter of time before it does .
The active leaking is that area in the back where 3 roof planes converge .
Thats what I'll quote to them and if accepted I'll show how I handle the repairs .
If and when it sells I'll have some good info to get a figure together for the real roof work !!
Happy Holidays , Walter
I am at least a hundred posts behind in that archy thread
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!