Hi! I’m very new here, but I’d like to get started with a question from some of you Vets. I am contemplating retirement in a very few years, and I need a shop. I have been repairing, modifying, and refurbishing fine firearms for 35 years in addition to my regular career of (first) a tool-and-die machinist, then (later) an Engineer. I seem to be drifting towards small-lot manufacturing a line of precision crafted wood and metal shooter’s accessory items. (I enjoy it) My main concern is (1.) efficiency in shop layout, and I’d like the shop to be able to be trimmed out to match the house, (2.) heating and cooling (I live ‘way down South – 100% humidity/ Temp ranges of 15 to 100+ degrees F; it’s just plain too hot to work without A/C and the winters are bitter cold due to the humidity.) Round the clock HVAC is almost a necessity, but I cannot locate the operation inside the house – no basement. (3.) I’d like something with capability for expansion later, and (4.) I’d like to build it myself, with some pro help. (Have done that – went well). Any ideas on any of this would be greatly appreciated. Any good plans anywhere out there for a reasonable price? What about estimation programs (I’m pretty computer savvy but I don’t have CAD-CAM. ) that will get you in the “park”. Would also like any ideas on how to save on the HVAC costs. I’m open for Questions & suggestions. Currently I’m working out of an attached utility room (12’LX5’WX12’High!; all storage is vertical! ). I was thinking of something in the 24′ X24’ range.
Replies
goboom,
Are you going to be using sheet goods or dimensional lumber?
How large are your projects going to be?
Lots of variables to be determined by the materials you will be using.
Saw
garagejournal.com
I'm about 22' square, lots of room and built-ins, for just me. I like lots of counter space. Solid core doors are good for that. Make drawers whenever I have the right scrap. Dug into a bank, uphill side is about 3-1/2' underground, other side is walkout.
Three sides block up to 4' high, balance stick framed. One center post; Hardi-plank and 2/12 shingled shed roof. Inside ceiling height follows this pitch; goes 7' to 10' high. Suspended ceiling at that angle; (9) 4-tube troffer fixtures. One small window to watch the kid's castle. Intercom to the house. Speakers in the ceiling.
Forrest
Forest,
I think you posted some pictures of your shop a few months ago. Very nice space as I recall. Would like to see more.
How much of a PITA is the center post?
Thanks
oldfred
Okay - beautiful Sunday morning; good time to run around and take too many pictures, and engage in creative writing with my coffee!
The center post is no problem - It's there because in the evolution of the shop, it used to be a shed on the garage. I just pushed up the eave and extended in out 6', and dug it out for the shop.
Okay - here's the full tour. My "complex", like all good shops, evolved at least seven times, as I needed more spaces or got freebies - lots of freebies! Note to Original Poster: I believe that's the most important concept - a shop must be able to grow as your needs develop and change, especailly as you're just starting!
It's winter, so yard and trees looks depressing!
Street side - wanted it minimal from the street view. Building is probably '40s; porch is a machine shipping pallet on used CMUs; door is from a client, porch roof is from a neighbor's trash pile. I put in the slab about 10 years ago. Bay on the left is scrap from a job, built on my original garage door apron (moved the garage door to the right side last year when I had the driveway put in (swapped with a neighbor with a paving business; I built him a back porch).
View Image
House side - Picture window on bay is from my parents house playroom; we replaced his windows with vinyl last year. Window in gable is old bathroom window from a room we removed on the house. Shop is dug in on the left of garage; was originally a lean-to shed on the garage I built for wood storage right after we bought the house. Crepe Myrtle to right of bay from an excavation - beautiful in summer, but I have to keep notching out the porch floor!
View Image
Back side along driveway; new garage door location; still gotta paint this side! Good ol' truck hidden back here. Corrugated along far barn wall is old concrete porch floor decking.
View Image
Camper barn - window sashes from a client; design inspired by a walk-up resturant in Belize My office is in the camper - wireless internet, HVAC, and a fridge, plus no kid noise! Green door from a job somewhere. Tall post will have a pennant someday, when I figure out a design!
View Image
Entry to shop - client door (was old 2nd floor door from "classical portico" project last year). Shop completely framed with machinery shipping crates accumulated from when I used to work for Mead Paper - French 2x4s; about 2-1/4" x 3-4/4" fir. Blocks are picked-thru seconds from a local manufacturer - my first block-laying. Nandina (bushes) from excavation at a client's for an addition. Shingles on shop roof are three different colors; mostly gray. Woodpecker knocker from granddad; light from client back door - I fixed it.
View Image
Camper area is also dug out some to give 12' vertical.
View Image
Full back-end view - crap gets hidden back here! Old mantles hanging up; waiting for something.
View Image
Pole barn area for wood storage. All 6x6s throughout used to be warehouse dock bumpers from a Mobil plant where dad worked; 3" C-channel horizontals 9notched in) from same place. Rack of old doors from various jobs
View Image
Inside the shop now; post gives a place for electrical outlets and dust collection riser. Gonna' close in that Romex any minute now!
View Image
Another view of post and lots of bins - bins from one of those traveling "Cummins" warehouse parking lot shows.
View Image
Stair up into garage; Delta air-cleaner. Highly recommend that - put two 12x24 pleated furnace filters on the inlet side to save the expensive bag filter. Place on long wall; high, 1/3 of the way from the corner; blowing the rest of the 2/3s; encourage a circular flow.
View Image
South wall; cabinets as I had left-over melamine from various cabinet-type jobs; tables are doors; drawers are scrap 3/4" ply. Planer, Shaper are on wheels underneath; also site tools like small air compressor, tablesaw and stand, sawzalls, rotahammer, etc. by the door
View Image
North wall - more melamine, lots of drawers; built a few at a time; door counters; client gable attic fan as exhaust; louvers from Azek scrap; fan is directly opposite window for counter-scouring airflow; used heat pump/ AC from client - ("attic recovery" job). Parrot mascot; damaged paper mache' from client; I Scotch-taped the tail back on)
View Image
Up in garage now, more shelves from scrap; Onieda cyclone in corner; fan and bags in attic - bags fill maybe once a year.
View Image
east side of garage; more scrap shelves
View Image
Shop attic access; ancient compressor up there from Granddad's old shop; troffer fixtures bought at church yard sale for $1 each - took 20 to make 8 good ones. All new air stuff from Harbor Freight.
View Image
Forrest - wordy this morning!
Edited 3/11/2007 12:03 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:03 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:03 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:04 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:04 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:05 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:05 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:05 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:06 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:06 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:07 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:07 pm by McDesign
...[Message truncated]
Edited 3/11/2007 12:08 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:09 pm by McDesign
Edited 3/11/2007 12:29 pm by McDesign
Nice shop space, couple of quick questions.
brand of table saw and dust collector ?
(still deciding on the dust collector I can afford)
Thanks!
TS is a Delta Unisaw (love it!); 52" UniFence, I made the big table from some Melamine; also made a router insert.
Dust collector was originally a Harbor Freight 2 HP version on a rooling stand; Christmas present; upgraded with bigger, felted bags (next Christmas); then Onieda designed the dust collection sizing when I was planning the shop. They supplied a "kit" of all the parts and the cyclone once we had the design right. Nice folks; maybe a grand?
Blower right on top of the cyclone is probably more efficient, but the HF is CCW and the cyclone is CW!
Forrest
Forrest,
Obviously all of the "sea gulls" are not here in Maine. What a collector! :)
Beautiful use of salvaged materials! .
Just showed your pics to my wife. Have a couple sheds stashed full of "stuff" waiting to be parts of a new shop. (actually, after 37 yrs., she puts up with it. She's a retired art teacher and knows about saving string too short to use and other treasures - immediately spotted the yellow bins and tangerine boxes. She got a kick out of your descriptions too)
What do you use for sliders for your tool drawers?
Thanks for taking the time to show us. Beautiful shop!
oldfred
Edited 3/11/2007 6:17 pm ET by oldfred
<What do you use for sliders for your tool drawers?>
I lucked into a case of 28" full-extension BB slides from some mail-order place. I think I got three dozen for about $6-7 each? Too long for kitchen cabs, so maybe they were an overstock.
Tell DW that they are clementine boxes, not nectarine boxes! Wife saw my new pix at lunch; she immediately moved the boxes to HER garden house - I never even got to use them!
Forrest - the house is full of "dump treats", too. Keep telling myself someday I'll make a list.
Yep. Clementines. I just typed the wrong word.
You don't need estimating software to do 1 or 2 projects. It would not be an efficient use of time - to say the least. To do estimates, basically you build the project in your mind - from start to finish just like you were really building it. Regarding estimating, there is practically no such thing as going into too much detail. It would take you longer to learn a software package then it would take you to do it by hand (using a regular spread sheet to do the multiplication and addition). The main thing is to be very familiar with the processes that will be involved. You can get around some of this by getting turn key estimates from subs.
BTW you said "I live 'way down South - 100% humidity/ Temp ranges of 15 to 100+ degrees F; it's just plain too hot to work without A/C and the winters are bitter cold due to the humidity." Where is that? Way down south and bitter cold just don't seem to go together.... Maybe the rainforest of Antarctica? :-)
Edited 3/10/2007 7:47 pm ET by Matt
You would be surprised how cold it gets in Atlanta, Ga. I wouldn't want an unheated shop here.
GoBoom, go to HD or Lowes and look for plans for garages.
They are about $15 for a set of plans that will be your basic shell
9' walls or higher in a shop is good.
Scissor trusses with an energy heel for plenty of insulation.
Check with your building dept, see if those plans are good enough, here in Utah they pass.
Joe H
Just curious what type of fine firearms you work on? I'm kind of into that stuff myself.
Mike
I'm at a similar stage in life, similar climate.
This spring I'll be adding a retirement workshop addition to our detached garage.
The HVAC system will be radiant (hydronic) tubing inside slab on grade, with a perimeter stem wall.
Slab construction is a low cost, low maintenance, strong and durable solution for this situation. In-slab radiant is an excellent heating system for a shop. It puts the heat emitter at the ideal location (under your feet). It's silent, energy efficient, and does not blow dust around. No ductwork simplifies framing. For a small well insulated shop, I should be o.k. with a water heater as the heat source. Cheap. Downside is that concrete is hard on the feet, but you can put down rubber mats. And of course it is hard to modify once it's in, so you do need to plan carefully.
For AC I'm leaning toward a mini-split (Mitsubishi Mr. Slim) unit. But I'm not going to put it in until I'm sure I need it. The walls will be continuous foam insulation around a timber frame, with a ventilated "cold" metal roof. Cedar siding (painted white) is a good insulator against summer heat gain. I've designed a central dormer in the shed roof with awning windows layed out to provide a chimney effect to draw in cool air. A dehumidifier (with not cold cool water running through the slab in summer) , maybe some shutters, might be enough. It'll be interesting to see if I can make the hydronic system work for moderate cooling without getting condensation on the slab.
For design software, check out Google "Sketchup". It's a free downloadable 3d design tool that will show sun/shadows per your site location, even time of day, so you can play around with window placement, overhang depths and so forth, to optimize natural lighting, heating and cooling.
This has been a really fun project for me so far, and a great way to ease toward retirement.
Thanks, Tom. I'll check it out. And the idea of the slab sounds excellent, however, it might not work for me as I have a very sloped site. (I'm in N. Alabama, Mountains + I am on the side of a hill.) However, one can do lots with backfill. I had another shop with a slab - worked great, and with a good pair of soft-soled tennis shoes (steel-toed, of course) you'd be surprised how comfortable it can be. Your idea on the radiant heat is great, and this is actually (from what I understand) where a lot of the foot problems actually arise. The cool concrete pulls heat from the feet and lower body.
I'd like to read up on this alternative heat. Any good references you could recommend? The split system is one I'm looking at also. I'm also looking at a very small second-hand central unit. Local HVAC servicemen tell me they pull lots of systems that are in perfect shape, but were just too small, or extra room additions made to the structure have made that way. I have a goy with a local HVAC company on the lookout for one now. Be surprised how low cost they can be, to buy and operate, with a good computerized thermostat, properly set up and good heavy insulation. But it's mostly to chase the damp.
Bill
One thing to consider when building a garage is the possibility of lumber or other storage upstairs. In Vermont, most older outbuildings were balloon framed with a four or five foot kneewall to yield more usable space upstairs. The eave walls are about 15 feet in this case with a ledger let in for the floor joists (which could be engineered to give a clear span). One other thing the old buildings sometimes had was an extended ridge beam with a pulley in the peak of the gable end. Comes in handy for quite a few tasks.
Good luck.
I would avoid tying you shop together with your homes HVAC. I'm sure you are well used to the oils, grease, varnishes, solvents, etc. that you use. I'm not sure everyone else in the house wants that wafting in as they are trying to go to sleep at night.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Good idea. Noise also travels through HVAC Vents.
Thanks, Bill
I agree with JoeH on the 9' ceilings. I had 9.5 ft ceilings on a shop and loved it - you can swing a standard piece of lumber end over end without knocking anything over or putting holes in walls. Makes less square footage feel and work like more. Moved and built a shop on a low budget. Couldn't do 9', but framing with full 96" studs between plates and I could lean a piece of lumber against a wall with a few inches to spare. I prefer to keep hardwood I'm using vertical for easier sorting and better air flow. Moved again and 1920-built garage has 7 ft ceilings in floor and loft. Not sure how I'm going to set it up yet. It's nice having both concrete and wood flooring - concrete for stationary tools and wood for the bench areas. I've seen shops with windows around the top foot or two of the ceiling so there was natural light but still room for cabinets and shelves within reaching distance. If I were designing from scratch, doors on both ends for good air flow on a nice day would be a must. A concrete patio or drive outside a rollup door would be as well.
Another idea. I setup my first shop off an attached garage when my son was one. I was worried about him stumbling into the shop and flipping on a power tool when he got older. I had an existing circuit which I left in place for lights, stereo, chargers, clock, etc. I converted an old welder feed to two 20A tool circuits. I ran both circuits clear around the shop with different colored receptacles so I could run a shop vac and table saw, etc. on separate circuits. Both tool circuits were wired into a large handled shutoff switch mounted at 5 feet next to the door, so I could easily depower the shop when I walked out. I figured my son could reach the power switch on a table saw as soon as he could walk, but by the time he could reach to five feet he would be old enough to understand the risk. Unexpectedly, I found that I would often flip that switch when changing a saw blade, though I'd never take time to unplug the saw directly. Convenience and safety work together. Similarly, I'll use ear muffs hanging next to the saw, but not use ear plugs because they interfere with the stereo or talking to others I'm working with. If the ear muffs aren't hanging there. Well, it's just these couple cuts....
You may ask around on the Knots forum. Fine Woodworking regularly had workshop issues when I was a subscriber several years ago.