Fellas,
Let me ask your advice on something.
First, a brief bit-o-background. I have been a general handyman for the past few years and I have recently turned my company towards new construction trim work. I am comfortable doing this and my workmanship isn’t the question. I make the money I need to and this really isn’t a how to question.
My problem is the builder I am working for hasn’t built new in 15+ years. It is a father and son team and frankly, they are learning the GC business kind of like I am. On the first house, they added on constantly to my work orders. I corrected framing problems, drywall things and all kinds of things. After I billed them for 7 hours @ $40.00 per hour for the add-on’s, they fussed about the bill.
My new problem is this; I am on the second house and I have refused to reframe a bathroom door for them. The pantry cabinet they want to install covers the light switches (somebody goofed). They want me to cut out the stud and notch it and move the box over to fix it. I refused on the premises that if I accidentally strip a wire in the wall and it causes a fire down the road, I am liable since I moved the box. Plus, it is a framing and electrical issue. Next small example: all of the doors were framed at a RO of 85†tall. You can see a crack above the door. They want me to jamb a stud in there and hang it anyway. One door was 32†RO at top and 31†on the bottom. I had to cut the stud down so I could plum the door jamb.
This is a lot of typing for a small question. Is fixing framing problems and removing studs and such normal for a trim guy? I told the GC that I would fix the doors when the framer fixed the problem. Was I wrong and if I was, do I continue charging him $40.00 per hour to fix this?
Thanks,
David “Splinky†Polston
P.S. I have him sign additional work order forms before any work (I have started carrying generic forms). I’ll have to send a photo of the wall problem. You can stick your fingers through the wall on the top of the doors (The photo’s are still in my laptop).
Replies
you should charge for everthing additional- tell your builder/ customer up front that you charge to correct - so that you can do a proper job of trimming.
keep a log book and take pictures as you progress-
document and you can decide later on the give and take
I'd say No Way!!
I don't ask the rockers to fix the framing if nailers were left out of the corners, or the plumbers to move the floor joists if spaces were not left for pipes.
If you are a trim carpenter, your tools and your expertise should reflect that.
A crappy framing job can seriously increase the cost of the other trades!
Your best bet... IMHO, is to just stop doing the additional work. Fix the problem once and they will expect you to do it next time!
--- as a footnote, the real world is slightly different. If this GC is the main source of income for you, you may not want to piss him off.
Splinky
You will probably get a lot of response to this Q.
I would charge for the reframing, moving of electrical(that is if you are going to move it) and any of the stuff that's not "normal obstacles" by that I mean sometimes there will be a wall out of plumb that you have to "wack" back to plumb, that's normal. If I have to reframe than that isn't normal stuff. I don't believe I would move electrical, I would do the carpentry end but not the electrical, your not an electrician are you? and I would doubt that your insurance co. would appreciate it either!
Some stuff isn't worth the hassle of trying to get paid for, but I wouldn't do a lot of work without compensation either.
Doug
I run a trim company, too. We always point any issues that are or could be problems.The GC's, or supers, tell us if they want us to fix it, fix part of it, or carry on. If we refused, it would slow us down or we'd stop getting hired. I always bill for fixes at our normal rates.
I have to move electicals all the time, BUT, I always tell the elecrticians. If the GC wants me to furr down an opening, fine, they've got sheetrock pointup guys to finish it. If we have to enlarge a RO, we do it, make it structurally sound, hang the door and move on. Fix the stair framing, fix the flooring, pull the windows in, take everybody else's trash out...it's our job, we're finish carps.
All our GC's appreciate that we'll go the extra mile, now, if they were bitch about the charges, yeah, I might refuse<G>
Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I am truely looking forward to reading all of these posts ... and I too believe this will be here a while.
Piffin, I did refuse on the basis that the wall was structural. And no, I don't want to piss him off (and don't think I have) but I not allowed him to walk over me either. We're both learning each other a little but I think we'll make it.
I guess a problem I have is that the son was a trim guy wanna be once and I can't for the life of me figure out why he doesn't pick up a hammer and fix some of these little issues himself. He has time to knock a few back in the the morning (I smelled it on occasion) so he can surely do the small things.
One little funny add on I did that they fussed over on the first house: They wanted me to builld up a breakfast bar from 38" to 44". I did it and charged them an hour. The homeowner didn't like it so I tore it back apart and charged them another hour.
Isn't this business grand?!?
Splinky
You seem to have a pretty good grip on the problem. The most crucial thing for you is to be completely straightforward in your communications. As a gc I appreciate it when a sub brings up any quality control problems. We usually fix them ourselves but we would glady pay a sub to fix anything that he saw as a problem. That is why we use the subs we use. The gc you are working with now will either figure this out or not. If he is slower than you about learning this, start making his work a smaller part of your business.
I am so happy to listen to GC's. I have a lot of future questions for you all.
You are doing it just right. Tell him that you will install trim when the framing gets finished correctly.
{BTW, that one about moving the switch box into a notch in the stud really gets me. That stud is likely a king stud and if it is a structural wall, it is holding up the header and load from above. Whjen that load settles, guess what happens to your finely mitered joint in the casing}
He will continue to abuse your time and the relationship if you don't stand firm on things. I have dealt with this in the past when I was a sub . Sometimes they apologized and everything went along smoothly, sometimes they bellyached and went to another sub for a job or two and then came back to me, and other times, they went away mad and stayed mad.
Those in the later group are the ones you definitely don't want to be working for anyway.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm on this bandwagon too. Occasional little stuff - sure, I run into it, it takes five minutes, no muss, no fuss. That's good business sense. Reframing a bunch of screwups . . . different issue. Typically the way this pans out is I note the problem if it's significant, bring it to the GC's attention, and give him options as to ways to correct. He picks the option, which invariably is followed by me saying "You want to call the framer or you want me to bill it". Real simple.
Not your job to fix what you're describing, and you didn't bid to do so. If it's over and above what you allowed for and contracted for, then either someone else fixes it or you get compensated for your time.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I do a lot of small work. Shower installations being one of them.
An example. Got asked to install shower wall panel and door. Plumber had put the tray in. I asked if it was level, were the walls plumb and flat etc. "Oh yes.....of course"
I arrived and found the tray barely fixed down and so far out of level it wasnt funny. The ethical dilema I have is, once I start on a job I do a quality job. So once started I feel responsible for the final outcome. ( damnit ).
I levelled this tray whilst cursing the moron plumber and billed for the extra time taken to do it. If you act as the "quality control" on behalf of these people who do crappy work, then 2 things happen.
1. You work YOUR butt off taking up the slack for someone else.
2. The person doing less than adequate work never gets called on to fix their own mess or pick their game up. They get paid and merrily move on to the next job. Meanwhile, what are you doing?
I now have a simple policy. I ask the relevant questions regarding quality of others work if it affects what i am asked to do. If I arrive and find garbage ( as in out of level shower trays ), then I tell the customer that I cant work on this because........and that once the offender has done it properly, call me.
Then walk. Not worth the hassle, really.
Plus, you HAVE to charge for all time spent on a job, regardless of what it might be. As for the electrical, we dont have the threat of a lawsuit like you do, and I STILL wont touch electrical stuff. Not worth the risk.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW