We are an excavation contractor and are working on a project for a repeat customerbuilder. What im saying is no contract. We have what I would describe as an incredible relationship with this builder. In the past extras have come up and we have billed for them as necessary, and he has never questioned them. But, we have never faced extras of the scale we are facing on this one.
This project started as a simple room addition 30’x 5′, cut out asphalt in this area, demo concrete garage floor and remove, and haul away plaster demoed by others, pour footers, deliver pea gravel and spread.
We started to cut out the asphalt and discovered that beneath it was a 7″ concrete slab. Thsi means now im cutting through 12″ of material. So I tell him we need a concrete cutter to cut this deep. He says dont worry just make 2 staggered cuts as necessary. My saw only goes 6″ deep but he thinks it will crack on the joint and be close enough. It didnt, we pulled out large chunks of conrete that he will have to repair.
I started to excavate and ripped out wire #1. After a lengthy investigation we discover it feeds an abandoned fountain. Dig more, wire #2 conduit with large phone lines and multiple coaxial cables, check the home everythig still works, move on. Dig more, steel pipe and while hand exposing it steel pipe #2 appears. A while later it is identified as an abandoned oil tank hidden beneath the driveway one is a fill line and the other is a vent. Dig more, hit and destroy 2 copper lines, they turn out to feed 2 furnaces off of previously discovered oil tank. Dig more, old concrete stoop, poured solid 4’x4’x4′, investigate, block has been removed from the inside and thsi is poured into the wall where the block would have been and it is hidden behind shelving from the inside. We spent about 6 man hours uncovering this stoop and getting past it but still havent removed it becasue we are awaiting a decision from builder. So now this is blocking our footer pour. Dig more, hit conduit with 2-2-2, now im skepticle, but have to check, everything is ok another dead line. Dig more, another line, still have no idea what it is. End of Digging.
Contractor was providing dumpsters for us to put all our trash, dirt, and concrete into. They picked up one dumster at 10 am and didnt ever bring us another one. I blame the dumpster company for this problem. So now I have 4 men standing around waiting on another dumster that never shows up.
We started cutting the concrete out of the garage in big sections 5’x20′ and pulling them out. Customer complains the dust is coming inside from cutting operations even though this saw has a water tank. So we put plastic up everywhere and a second man follows the saw with a hose. Problem solved? No way what about the gas fumes. No more cutting even though all we have left is one cut all the way around the perimeter. So the jackhammer comes out and we finish it the slow way. We are on a timeline because the dumster cannot stay over the weekend so propably will not make it and will have to haul remainder away ourselves. Never mind there is not a chance we will get the previously mentioned stoop out along with the dirt beneath it and around it. Almost forgot the neighbor complained about jackhammer shaking his house, shrugged shoulders with dumb look on face.
Based on all the problems we have faced we are 2 days off shcedule and builder seems worried but has not complained. This problem now is that 2 of my men had to start another job and cannot help to pull this out not to mention that we are short machinery because it is trapped on this job until it is done.
The question here is am I out of line to try and recover all of these extras and lost time. If we were talking a coulpe hundred dollars i wouldnt even ask but this job started at $2000, and is now worth about $5,000 and growing by the hour. I anticipate a final cost around $6,000. Just to clarify if this guy said to eat this I propably would without complaint because that is how good this guy treats us, but that doesnt mean I want to.
Replies
Since you have such a great relationship with him just talk to him. Lay it all out just like you did here.
I don't have much experience in issues such as this, but, from the way you describe it, if the contractor doesn't see that there is another 3-4k worth of work happening he can't be nearly as good to work for as you say. It certainly sesm like there is a whole pile of things that are out of scope of the original job, contract or not.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
I think you'd be out of your mind to "eat it"- maybe do it at cost if the customer is that good to you, but why should you pay for the conditions that you encountered on "his" job? If he's got a decent contract, he'll be billing the homeowner for all of the unforeseeables anyway- so you're not digging into his pocket.
Bob
if I were your GC, I would be happy to pay what you need for this headache.
I would also be there to hold the customer's hand and to remind them of the clause about extra charges for unforseen circumstances. He should have one in his contract.
BTW, I seem to remember that all underground fuel tanks were to have been removed by some date a couple years ago, and that the liabilities for such accrue to the homeowner under fede3ral law. In other words, any HO who did not remove his tanks by that date is totally responsible for any costs associated with their removal and/or spillage.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Ditto what's been said before. Lay everything out on the table and if he's good to you and honest, he'll cover your time and expenses. Everything you encountered was unforeseen in your bid.
Good luck,
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
You should not eat any costs that are associated with this job. Did you call the GC with every new obsticle so he could keep tabs and discuss with the home owner about extra charges for hidden conditions?
He should be willing to pay you for your time even if it is out of his pocket.
Hope he had a hidden conditions clause in his contract!
As the GC I would pay you whatever you charged. If I was going to have a problem collecting it all from the customer, I might ask for a little break but our excavator would probably have already knocked a little bit of the top, knowing what the situation was.
Whenever I find myself in this type of situation, I am just glad that I have the best qualified subcontractors that I can find, because they will deal with problems like this in stride. A less competent company would grind to a halt and we would end up paying in time and money. This is why we pay our subs without question. It is the job of the GC to anticipate these problems and to financially foresee the solution.
can we etch that last paragraph in bronze and hang it at the entrance here?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I were the GC, I would be paying you every penny. Why? Because I have a very detailed 'hidden conditions' clause in my contract. I cannot see what's underground, and a utility locate would not expose any of it either. I would be billing the customer for the whole nightmare, and so would any other guy who has had it happen before.
Around here, I couldn't even get a bid for the kind of work you are doing. I would be paying $90 per hour for machine and operator, about the same for truck and driver, dump fees, yardage for gravel or sand, disposal fees for slash or clean wood debris, etc. If I somehow forced an excavator to bid on a job like that it would be an exhorbitant amount and plenty of exclusions.
You should at the very least be signing simple contracts with your customers that say something like 'remove asphalt, spread gravel' or something like that. If they don't like signing stuff then you write them a letter detailing what you expect to do and what you expect it to cost them. Handshake deals are the kiss of death, in my opinion. The one time I did a job with no contract is the one time the owner's expectations were not correctly managed.
Anyway, write the contractor a bill. If he's any good he knows that he owes you the money already.
Thanks for the replys guys. You have kind of reinforced what I allready know. I just needed to hear it from others to make sure I wasnt overlooking anything.
Just want to say that always ask for your extras. If the gc gives you a hard time then there is the option of compromise. I have both gc'd and subbed. If a sub bails me out of a bad situation (even if I'm losing money) I'm grateful not to be alone and would not give hima a hard time. If I were left in a financial bind I might ask the sub to be patient and I will pay as quickly as I can. I generally make sure I have enough reserve in my accounts to absorb a loss. It's foolish not to. As a sub I would ask for an extra and if I was given a hard time about it I would ask myself where is this relationship likely to lead if we can't support each other in crisis. Lay it on the table and be open.
second option.... keep diggin and hope to find al capones hidden lair.