The city is replacing the water main on my street with a new 10″ main. They will tap the main with 1″ copper and connect it to my line at the service shutoff at the curb. From the curb shutoff, I have a 2″ galvanized line (2″ is not a typo) that comes up through my basement floor and is then reduced to go through a 1″ meter. The house was built around 1915 and to my knowledge the 2″ galvanized is original. The rest of the plumbing in the house is copper. We don’t have any water pressure problems.
Here’s my question: while the curb shutoff is exposed, should I hire someone to replace the existing 2″ galvanized with 1″ copper? (PEX or pvc is not allowed in my city.) It’s not going to be cheap: one quote was for $1700 with an upcharge for a midpoint excavation if he couldn’t feed the copper all the way through the inside of the existing 2″ galvanized (total distance would be about 30 feet). The estimate did include breaking through the basement slab to make the 90 degree bend up through the basement floor. Excavating a new trench is not likely to be cheap since it is solid rock about 4-5 feet down. Any insight would be appreciated.
Replies
Take a hard look at CPVC, that's been approved by most building codes for decades now and it's very good. Long lasting, cheap to install and buy, and it's been in use across the nation.
PVC might not fly with your local ord but they'll likely allow CPVC.
CPVC is ####
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I'd go with heavy gauge copper with a sand back fill but then again, Copper from the street to the house is a couple hundred dollars while CPVC is probably only about $35 tops.
Unless the CPVC can somehow reduce the $1600 cost of the excavation, the net savings seems so small as to be insignificant.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
If I had the money, I would change the supply line to copper while the city has the water turned off. Perfect time to upgrade the service.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I suspect this is a "pay me now or pay me more later" situation.
I would go for it now since there is already digging, etc. going on at the streeet - make the mess once.
But that's just me.....
Jim
>>Excavating a new trench is not likely to be cheap since it is solid rock about 4-5 feet down.<<
That rock got broken along the path of the pipe way back when the original 2" line was installed.
Jim
is then reduced to go through a 1" meter
Since any leak or breakage would be ahead of the meter, I'd leave it in place until/if there is ever a problem.
For $1700 I'd rent a backhoe and DIY if I did not already have one myself <G>
If the city requires you to hire it done, leave it alone, the city's problem up to the meter?
My mommie's house was built around the same time, think 100% of the houses on the street still have the original water feeds. Lots more zinc on the pipes back then.
Take a look at what the condition of the pipe is where the city makes their new connection.
Edited 9/24/2009 5:49 pm ET by junkhound
" the city's problem up to the meter? "
Wouldn't that be nice? It's NEVER the city's problem, but the water company's problem, and they're only responsible for the line up to the curb box. The rest is all yours.
Dunno that it would be all that much cheaper to do it now. The only thing going for him is the hole at the street end, unless there are sidewalks or curbs involved. Then he'd save on concrete as well. That said, a 60-year old 2" galvy pipe is just a disaster waiting to happen. Me? I'd bite the bullet.
Dunno how a cu pipe would pull through it -- corrosion/scale could have reduced the interior diameter severely. I've seen 2" galvy drains narrowed down to about 1/4" by corrosion/scale. But it's worth a look-see.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Was going by the OP staement "The city is replacing the water main on my street with a new 10" main", which implies municipal water district.
Leak before the meter - have never heard of HO being billed.
Of course here, the meter is in a box at the street connection (PNW, 18" frost depth max), thus would be in full agreement with you to replace while part is dug up.
Another option not mentioned if replacement warranted based on inspection of existing 2" pipe. If the $1700 bill was in question for me, it would mean a good excuse to buy a $600 borescope and scout the 2" line when the city has it dug up.
Then if internal corrosion and probable failure seen, many options. One of which would be a 3/8" Cu line type K snaked/pulled thru a corroded 2" line, with a pressure tank in the basement to make up for loss of capacity. Lots of ways to do it for lots less than big $$.
Around here the meters are inside the house, and the city is only responsible up to the curb stop. Of course, you won't get billed for the water used if the leak's on your side of the curb stop, but most people decide they need to get things fixed when the front yard turns into a swimming pool (or skating rink).
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Same here. If it gets too bad they will shut off your water.
Sometimes the new line can be coupled to the old one and pulled into place, no digging except at the street.
That's worthy of attention right there.
Yeah, that's worth investigating/considering.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Here's the tool, http://www.pollardwater.com/pages_product/WW50050.asp
Yeah, the tricky part is having a straight shot with the existing line.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
As the original poster mentioned, since the existing line is 2" they may be able to simply feed the 1" copper through it from the house to the street. Then, all the plumber will have to do is excavate in the basement since the City will have the service shutoff dug up already. The big unknown is if that 2" line is so full of corrosion that the 1" copper won't fit.
Even if the 2" was full of scale and rust you still might be able to "snake" it with a cutter head and get through. I would try a lot of things before I ripped up the yard.
I bet an old plumber in your area could be able to give you a good prediction. It really depends on the water quality as much as anything.
My experience is in southwestern Wisconsin, and I don't know your codes. As with you, the water problem was on the city side of my street valve, so they had to do the repair, including the excavation and refill. My house is 1930's. Knowing that I also had galvanized from there to the house, my plumber was able to pull plastic from the house to the street using a backhoe at the street. Don't ask me how they did it, but it was apparently with some risk. No new excavation required. Cost about $1,300 all told, a bargain to me not to have to do it all later. I understand that a similar process can be done with sanitary lines without requiring excavation, though that involves bursting the existing ceramic line along the way.
The odds are good that your galvy line is going to fail 6 months after they fill the excavation. If you've got the money it's a good idea to fix it now.
Also, if the excavation will go anywhere in the same vicinity, you should consider replacing the sewer line too, if that hasn't been done since about 1950, especially if you still have a clay line.
Who gave you the $1700 bid? It may (or may not) be the best way to handle this. Contact an underground construction company that does piplines, underground utilities, etc. A pipe burst, or directional bore may be less expensive.
If you end up digging a trench you might want to inspect and/or replace the waste line if it is of similar vintage and runs in the same location.
I am certainly no expert, but I would think that running copper through a galvanized pipe would be a problem for corrosion. In my house, when we replaced some of the galv pipes with copper, every connection need to be a dialectric junction to avoid corrosion. I don't know if this only breaks down the steel pipe, which you would not care about, or if it would eventually destroy the copper pipe as well.....
I know that paying for upgrades that you won't notice a benefit from hurts, but sometimes you gotta just do it and remember to 'market' the upgraded water supply lines when you go to sell the house. You might end up getting more than your $1700 back in the end.
good luck,
ar
I see neither the need, nor the time pressure. The work the city is doing has no effect on your existing line, and the meter gives you the necessary shut-off to do it any time, at your leisure.
About the only thing that would alter this would be if, for some reason, your pipe and theirs share the same trench.
I'd be leery of making assumptions; the last time I tried fishing through an existing pipe, there was a 2ft. offset as soon as the pipe exited the foundation, for some reason. You have no guarantee the pipe run is straight.
If you do end up digging the old line up, be careful; there are likely other pipes (gas, electric, sewer) in that same ditch. Indeed, your sewer is likely in need of replacement already. Buy a truckload of sand, to properly bed the new pipes. Since you're digging up to the house, it might be possible to go UNDER the house, and avoid breaking that concrete. If you ever wanted a basement door direct to the outside, this is a time to consider it.
Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. Plumber #2 who scouted the job also didn't think it was going to be a trivial undertaking and was skeptical that pushing 70 feet of 1" copper through old 2" galvanized was going to go easily, if at all. Both plumbers who considered the job thought the odds were good that any new line would have to be laid outside of the existing pipe, which means a big excavation job, breaking though 18" of stone foundation, etc.In the meantime, we were connected to the new 10" water main via the 1" copper last week, feeding through the existing 2" galvanized downstream of the new curb shutoff valve. Water pressure and flow are unchanged or slightly better, not that this was ever a problem. At my request they saved the piping from the old main for my inspection. You've gotta love the old time pipe fitters: From a 6" cast iron main, a 3/4" tap was taken with 1 3/16" I.D. lead pipe that was beaten down to make a seal to the smaller tap. This connected to two sequential curb shutoff valves, the second one being a replacement for the original that apparently stopped working. This connected to my 2" galvanized, which enters the house, goes through a 1" meter, expands to 1 1/2" copper post meter, and then is branched off as necessary.Given the expense and potential disruption of replacing the 2" galvanized, and seeing as how it is still providing sufficient water, my inclination is to keep the existing line in place until it becomes a problem. That might be next week, or it could be 10 years from now. Like they say, "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof . . . ."As to why the house has 2" galvanized pipe for its water service, my guess is that they installed the oversized pipe to allow for continued sufficient water flow even as corrosion built up on the inside of the pipe over the years.
"In the meantime, we were connected to the new 10" water main via the 1" copper last week, feeding through the existing 2" galvanized..."Did they install a dielectric union? If not, you now have a galvanic reaction going on between the 1" copper and your 2" galvanized and corrosion of the galvanized pipe will accelerate greatly near that joint.BruceT
Good point. Yes, they installed a dielectric coupling between the brass reducing coupling and the 2" galvanized.