I had this slab poured for my garage 2 summers ago. So two winters of exposure, and it’s spalled this badly already. The apron is fine. A little slab I poured 10 years ago right next to it is fine. What might have caused this? Freeze thaw obviously, but why here and not the apron or the other slab?
Upstate New York, bad winters of course, but still, this just seems faulty.
Thoughts?
Steve
Framing the floor inside a crawlspace foundation keeps a gable-end addition close to grade.
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Replies
Looks like they broadcast dry cement onto the slab just before troweling to give it a really smooth finish.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Overworked the shid out of it, or poured in cold weather and use calcium chloride, and to much of it.
My new sidewalk did the same. I think they worked too much fine up and then our winters took care of the rest. My sidwalk is 3 years old and I am not happy.
Steve, are you going to the auction in Richfield?
Edited 3/16/2009 3:26 pm ET by frammer52
Hi Dave,Sorry to hear about your sidewalk. Any recourse for you?What auction, when?Steve
Richfield springs hardware store. Lots of goodies. sat at 9am. Lots of tools etc!
No recourse at this point. It is funny as I was watching over the guys a lot when it was done. I may just put covering over it.
>>Richfield springs hardware store<<Are they going out of business, or is it just one of those traveling cheap-tool sales?
Out of bisiness.
Check your pm.
The gas drilling meeting in Oneonta last night was real eye-opener. The landscape up here could be pretty radically altered.
Do tell!
Most of it was anecdotal and by environmental activists, so it all has to be carefully weighed, but they showed a bunch of photos from other developed fields and it was not a pretty sight. Anecdotal tales of water contamination, crumbling roads from all the truck traffic, noise pollution from compressors running for the the life of the well at the pad sites audible for 1/2 mile, failed containment ponds, 15+ acre pad sites so closely spaced it looks like northern NJ, list of toxic chemicals in the drillng slurry, etc.I've been to one other meeting that was hosted by a rep of one of the developement companies, and he painted a very rosy picture of it all. I went to this one for counter-balance. The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle and in the eyes of the beholder.Steve
I understand there has been a lot of improvements in this process now. You need to find out how the site in the state park in the finger lakes is doing. I think that would be a little more accurate.
Are you a member of a group that is exploring ths?
No. I have no dog in this fight. I don't own any land to speak of. My only concerns are quality-of-life and property value issues. I moved away from NJ for a reason.
Thought so.
I think a lot of this, depends upon the quality of the company behind this and the state DEA keeping track of.
Yes, very true. One thing to note is that the leases can and do change hands, so the company that starts the process might not be the company that finishes, so you can't rest assured that what is a good site today won't be a bad tomorrow.And good or bad, no company can get around the noise, traffic and sheer footprint of the thing once it all scales up.Good regulation is a must, and even that won't guarantee the aquifers won't get f'd up. And If I had to listen to compressors running in the background for the next 40 years I think I would slit my wrists...or at least move somewhere else.I think the best we'll be able to hope for is that the companies will be held accountable for their impact.This probably isn't the best place for this discussion.Steve
First I've heard mention of the compressors.
What are they used for? the wells Erin and I visited didn't have any, but that
doesn't mean much. The holding ponds are one of the main places
that regulations can help. Last year the DEC released a
statement covering many aspects, but one of them was
supposed to be that the water had to be removed and taken
to an appropriate dumping ground (what ever that is). The conversation at that point, revolved around how Penn. did
not have this regulation and therefore was in a much more dangerous
position. Sure hope the rules aren't being nudged already.
The compressors are gigantic...the gas is not pressurized enough on it's own to travel through the pipelines.Lots of photos of the water container trucks dozens and dozens of them lined up around the containment ponds to pump the slurry into for haul-away. They look like shipping containers on wheels. The water is brought in via what look like stainless steel milk trucks.There were photos of one site in PA where there were obvious little spillover ponds outside of the holding pond, with no liners. Woman called PA DEP about it. They took three days to respond, before which the site was bulldozed over and the woman was arrested for tresspassing.My understanding is that the rules for NY are still being written.Regs or no, it makes a big noisy dirty mess.Steve
This is interesting. When asked about land owner usage of the wells, the
gas company representative replied- " It's entirely possible, but seldom done. As the gas exits
the well head in excess of 1200psi. Which requires expensive
equipment for the landowner to purchase". New York already had environmental regulations which
(for the time) were considered far more stringent then
most. These are all re-wrights and updates. If the holding ponds are temporary, we shouldn't have
any truck convoys after the fracking is done. I think we are entering the period of misinformation
coming from all parties.
Look at the Alberta tar sands, what a mess, screwed up aquifers birds dying in the tailing ponds, the one's so big they can be seen by the space station.
Our roads are ripped up, saline spills, etc. Regulations are only as good as the enforcment. nuf said
Yeah, the whole thing is worrisome. Just bought a place to finally put down some roots and
the world turns it's gaze our way (scary).
think we are entering the period of misinformation coming from all parties.>>>>>>.
I think you hit the nail on the head right there!
Reminds me of the disinformation about wind mills that have been spread, by people both for and against!
It's frustrating. I'll fight hard if I need to, but this mess doesn't
have any straight answers. No need to go off half cocked when
you don't know what the heck your talking about. What I see are for and against opinions. That's not the issue.
It's going to happen. what we need to do is know what regulations
we NEED to make sure are in place and help people sign safe leases. All this back and forth just allows back room politics to creep forward.
Good point!
Going to the auction sat?
Not sure.
I'm supposed to be laying my new hardwood floor. There's a good
chance I won't have the tile grouted by then . So maybe!
Does the road people use salt on the icey roads there?
Do you or someone in your family use salt to cut the snow or ice during or after shoveling?
That's salt damage. BTDT.
As soon as I saw that I thought salt.
Up here in Canada I see it all the time.
Did they put a sealer on?
As others said the pour may have been poor, also was it air entrained concrete?And my heart goes out to you, go have some work ahead>
aa above and no entrain air.it wall proberly poured wet and overwork
"That's salt damage. BTDT."
Really? Now I have something else to worry about in the winter! Our roads get salted, as do parts of the sidewalk under trees where it tends to get icy. We have cracks from heaving, but no spalling like that. The concrete is 40 years old. I always thought that type of spalling was from overworking it, now that I know better I almost wish I didn't.
Dang stuff drips from your wheel wells and sits overnite, maybe longer, when you drive on the ceement after a snowstorm.
This damage can be repaired via a good cementatious topping/overlay. Like this one:
http://www.miracote.com/index.php?href=productdetail&id=16
There's a distributorship on the SW side of Chicago that stocks the stuff. Call the company for the name.
Apply this yourself or have your husband do it. Practice on a small spot else first. If you hire a professional to do this, he'll charge somewhere around $10 a sq. ft. Material cost should be somewhere around 15% of that.
The comment about the sealer should be heard.
Pete,Thanks for the link. I'm not sure what my wife would think if I have my husband apply it ;-)What do you mean about the sealer? It is sealed. I was wondering if that might actually be part of the problem.Steve
One of the ladies had made a response to the thread and I responded to her comment. But the same holds for you - get your wife to do it!
I don't know what type of sealer he used on your slab, but the ones I'm familar with require the ceement to cure first.
Maybe Brownbagg has a comment?
brownbagg already said it was poured wet and overworked. I don't know anything myself except he seems to know as much about concrete as anyone.Karl
He does have a standard answer to such questions:
Jackhammer.
Here is what the surface looks like on a dry day where it isn't spalled...
View Image
All of the above. If you've been parking on the slab then salt damage is likely, plus you see that sort of thing from various types of errors when placing the slab -- overworking, wrong mix, etc.
Of course, the bulk of the slab may be perfectly fine -- just ugly.
My neighbor across the street and I had driveways poured by the same crew within a year of each other. His spalled badly within two years, while mine is still reasonably smooth after 30 years.
we are in the syracuse area and this must have been a heavy salt year because where my wife parked in side it looked like that too oh well
noah
Thanks for all of the replies. Sorry I've not checked back till now.The slab was poured on a hot day, by what I believe was not a very experienced crew. It does have a sealer on it, that was applied as an afterthought a little later the same day. Salt is definitely part of the problem, as it is the worst where I've been parking the truck. But it also seems to be at laps in the pour. The entire surface has this kind of spiderweb crazing on it. Not cracks, but like something happened to the sealer.I'll deal with the problem. I don't expect him to do anything about it. What bugs me is the guy won't even come out to try and diagnose the problem. This is small town america...the guy that did the pour lives about a mile down the road from me. I called him on Saturday and asked him to come up and look at it. On the phone he kind of grunted and said "sounds like freeze/thaw". I said , yeah, but why, when the apron is fine and a little 10x10 slab that's ten years old and right next to it is fine? He grunted again, said he was kind of busy. I said I wasn't looking to blame anybody, I just want to know why it happened so it won't happen next time. I've driven past his house several times since that call, seen him farting around in his yard and he still hasn't come to look at it.I'm a contractor for cryin' out loud. Does he ever want my business again? This is the first job he did for me, it was on my own house. I guess he doesn't need any referrerals or repeat business. I have a client who used him for a barn slab and refuses to use him again too. I only used him because another guy I used to work with that is pretty picky about stuff had been using him for quite a while and seemed satisfied with his work. I trusted his judgement more than the angry client's judgement.Oh well.Steve
Edited 3/17/2009 9:56 am by mmoogie
So what are my options for dealing with this now? The barn is going up over it this summer, so it will be a little more protected, but salt on the wheels will always be a problem in our area.Steve
That floor looks 20 years old. Can you find the contractor that poured it?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
We have tough winters up here and I have seen alot of salt plus freeze/thaw damage.
When I did my own house ten years ago, my concrete supplier suggested that I use flyash in the mix. He said that it would prevent salt damage. I don't remember the price but it was negligable. The garage and driveway have stood up very well.
I bring this up because no one has mentioned flyash in this thread.
Any thoughts? What we gain in grip, we lose in touch. R. Kipling
>>Can you find the contractor that poured it?<<All I have to do is drive a mile down the road. I've called him to come up and take a look at it. He seems to not want to do so. I know he'll never make it right, but I would like him to try and figure out why it happened. Given his disinclination to do so, I'm disinclined to ever use him again, and am inclined to discourage others from using him.Steve
How about this, Hire another guy to redo the concrete. Drop the old stuff in the guys driveway. Tell him that since he didnt have time to inspect the slab onsite you though you'd bring it to him.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
That reply is from a suburban poster.
When you live in the sticks like Steve, you don't do that unless you are starting a war with the neighbors.
I think a personal visit is in order Steve. Just take the picts and ask what he is going to do?
Hopeless.
That guy will never own up to it. What we need is a good sub for flat work.There seems to
be a serious lack in these parts.
I have a guy in Utica that travels all over for flat work, the problem s he is normally very busy. Of course this year, probably not so much.
Maybe, you can tell Steve Saturday.
I will have his name.
Relax frammer, it was tongue in cheek.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Dave (frammer) brings up a real problem in these parts. It's not that you don't want to start a neighbor war, it's that reasonably competent tradesmen are far and few between. One hesitates to alienate anyone that has all their teeth and a running truck because you never know when your gonna need their help.This guy is one of the few people around with a crane. Now I know to use him for his crane, not his flatwork or his customer service...Steve
One hesitates to alienate anyone that has all their teeth and a running truck because you never know when your gonna need their help.
I understand the running truck being a potential lifesaver, but how are someone else's teeth gonna get you out of a jam? "Man this ribeye is a little tough. Hey Earl, could you help a brother out?"http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Hey, Earl I had corn on the cob last night and...
I've read through all the replies thus far and there is something missing.
Sometimes when flatwork is done on a hot day and the slab starts getting away from the crew they will "bless" the slab, that is, sprinkle water on the surface in an attempt to regain enough working time to finish the surface.
It works in the sense that you can bring up enough cement to make it look good, it doesn't work in the sense that it results in a slab that looks exactly like your photograph.
This is different from a mix that had too much water in it. If the mix was too wet, that is, the concrete was souped up coming out of the truck, then it is hammer time.
In the case of a slab that was properly batched and placed but has been "blessed" by an inept finish crew, it is possible that the problem is purely superficial and the problem can be corrected.
The problem with troweling in water at the last minute is not just the mechanical weakening by souping up the cement and fines, it's that you also trap water under the surface. When freezing temperatures arrive the spalling begins.
The good news is that if the concrete is otherwise sound, this is easy to fix.
First you go over it really good with that little hammer that looks like a meat tenderizer. It's called a bush hammer. It will break off any of the weakened surface. They make them to fit SDS-Max hammers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_hammer
Then power-wash the surface. This is essential because the bushing hammer will have introduced micro-fractures, which the pressure washer will remove.
Now coat the surface with a good quality industrial strength bonding adhesive.
Now you can top it with something like Finish-Crete, which is much stronger than the original material. Don't buy the garbage from Home Depot, go to a professional concrete supply place.