I just got a new (old) house. It is about 80 years old. The T+G oak flooring has been covered with wall to wall carpet for the last 40+ years. Pulled up carpet and was surprised how nice it looked considering the age. It was just a bit dark and had a few spots that needed repair. So I hired a flooring expert to refinish them to make the look new again (decided it wasn’t worth me trying to refinish the floor myself, especially on a 3 story house, I will have plenty of other project since the house was neglected for 30 years!).
That was 1 week ago. I got a chance to see it now that it has been sanded down and has 3 coats of oil based finish. The floor isn’t flat. When I look straight down it is fine, but if I look forward I can see there are “waves” where the light hits the floor. I ran my hand over the area and can feel no significant height differences where the waves go across. The waves are always perpendicular to the flooring.
The question is – was this caused by poor prep work, or is it just the nature of the wood? I have seen houses with it and without it. I always assumed it was caused by bad sanding, but flooring guy tells me it is the wood and not the workmanship. I need to resolve this issue with flooring guy before I move in so he has a chance to fix it if possible.
Suggestions?
I have also attached an image of how the repairs were done. Is this normal to have overcut on the adjacent floorboards?
Replies
Mathew,
First of all the repair is a little rough....o.k. a lot rough...o.k. it sucks!! What kind of finisher drops a saw into the board? What is that, an expansion gap?!! Oh well...nothing a few pounds of filler won't cure!
The "waves" you are talking about are most likely chatter marks caused by the drum sander. Some chatter is inevitable, excessive chatter is a sign of an out of whack machine. His big spinner should have taken most of the chatter out however. Chatter is the reason most finishers use satin gloss finish. I don't use a drum anymore because of chatter marks.
You sure that's oak?
Ditch
Lud
The first thing I thought when I saw the pic is that that aint oak,
Usually the chatter marks are sanded out with a buffer with screen on it, anyhow thats how Ive seen it done.
Cant say anything more about the repair, looks like something that would be done in a barn though.
Doug
From this angle looks like fir and you're right on bout that patch ditch. Flooring expert? __________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The floor in pine in the kitchen, pantry and bedrooms. The rest (steps, hallway and rest of first floor) is oak. All the repairs were on the pine expect for one step that needed to be replaced in oak (wait till you see the cut edge on that step). Granted, once I complained he fixed the step edge and mesh screened the entire house. The 4th coat was just put on and I will take a look at it tomorrow (hopefully can post some more images)
I've also attached a picture of the oak on the second floor hall.
The worse part is his crew didn't have the right sized saw, so get this, they "borrowed" my new Makita 7 1/4 saw for the repairs. I only discovered this when I went by after the first day of sanding and saw my tools out.
Is that red mahogany or cherry stain on red oak? What gloss sheen are you using?
This guy isn't proffessional enough to be staining floors. Does he own or rent his machines? Did he run his big spinner over the floor? The gouge looks like his drum is way out of balance, or he's cutting with too aggressive of a grit.
Ditch
Edited 8/1/2002 8:06:49 AM ET by luvditchburns
By the way, is that tread the finished specimen? Where's the return nosing?
Ditch
Ditch
I can tell you want to see this house just as bad as I do!
Doug
The house is a 5 bedroom with two flights of steps. House is completely empty. I did all the carpet, padding and tackless strip removal and I will do all quarter round installation.
The estimate was $3200, but that was done before the carpet was up. He saw there were some repairs to do and I added the kitchen and pantry. This bought the total to $3800. (the kitchen and pantry were in rough shape, there was laminate flooring with black mastic and a previous repair about 2ft x 6ft was done with a different width wood. He "fixed" the repair by staggering in wood I recovered from the laundry room so it would match, but that is another story)
I only got one quote. He came highly recommended. His price seemed high, but I know you get what you pay for (at least I thought so). So I booked him. I trust that he did do a good job at the other sites, but maybe my floor was just more difficult, or the drum sander wasn't well tuned, or the crew wasn't experienced enough.
He owns a rental store that rents out sanders. He has over 30 years experience in flooring. His son is also in the business. However, it was his crew that did the work now him. He sometimes supervised and sometimes they worked on their own.
He even has a web site, which shows his sanding equipment. http://www.georgekingcorp.com/Floorsanders.htm
Matt,
I hope you havent handed him the final payment yet. Hell, I hope you havent handed him a deposit yet!
Find yourself another floor guy to estimate reworking those floors. Back charge the handyman with the belt sander.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Ya, the one pic I opened showed the floors weren't ready for finish yet.
Where do you want to go with this, it will look the same with more coats of finish. I assume the wave you speak of is the nasty machine work.
Floor guys figure the job by trips down the floor with different grits, they figure what you want by what you tell them. If they take the trouble to look at your job they try to get a feel for what to do by what the house deserves and what you will pay.
I'm not going to jump down the floor guy's throat without knowing a lot more. This is a need to be there question.
I'll be more than happy to jump down his throat, it's guys like this that give my industry a bad name.
I don't charge by how many "trips" I take across the floor. The floor gets as many passes as it needs.
This is my pass sequence:
24 or 36 grit, 40 grit, 60 grit, water pop, 80 grit, 120. When using water finishes the floor gets burnished with 180 grit. That's 6 or 7 passes with a thorough vaccing in between grits, before even thinking about applying finish.
I don't have a good, medium, crappy finish price list.
Ditch
Come on, you look at a floor and know how many passes you will have to take, and you know what is involved for this and that. If you muff the guess you eat a pass, but you know. That is why you are a pro.
I am trying really hard to not to jump on the this guy got screwed bandwagon. And I only saw a pic of one bad spot. How many square feet got finished?
The patches, you heard the finisher saw them, so? I didn't hear the conversation of how much it would cost to fix them. Those sound like a surprise, and the finish crew doesn't have the tools the install crew does. They got bombed with grinding tar and patching boards with the homeowner frigging with their window to finish.
I see two sides here.
So I see this as he says she says for now.
There may be two sides and the price sounds more or less right without knowing the actuall square feet involved but face it, this is crappy workmanship. There's a drop gouge on the floor right next to a couple angled ridges. But then, maybe they kept hitting nails in a floor that's already gone by and tearing the paper on the drum. Who knows? Maybe they tried to tell this owner that it was a lost cause before they started?
But, Even on his own website, the best pictures he could come up with show a couple divits and that's on a long complimentary view. I almost thought this was an old cuss in my area who is in business for thirty years and has a son in the business too until I saw the website and adresses. He also got to where he doesn't do much work but subs it out so that you might or might not get a good job.Excellence is its own reward!
I don't even want to see any more pictures, nor read anymore. It just goes to show you never know what you're getting when hiring someone you don't know or what kind of work they're capable of.
Ken Fisher
http://www.floridawoodfloors.net
Qtrmeg,
Honestly, I don't look at most of the floors we re-finish prior to the job. That might sound crazy, but it's true. 90% of the time, the first time I see the floor is when I show up to do the job. Some floors finish clean right away, others take more time. I pull up to the job with a trailer, I always have all my equipment and repair stock with me. Seldom, if ever, am I surprised by a floor.
Mine is a sq. ft. business. I charge a fixed rate based on sq. footage. Some jobs gross more than others, some barely pay for paper and finish. I never wanted to get into quoting a price and then telling the customer that their floor offered "unique challenges" and that it was going to cost more. That leaves the customer with the suspicion that they're a victim of the old 'bait and switch'.
Floor finishing is fairly straight forward. Most problems occur because the person running the big machine or edger is inexperienced. Or they don't know and can't tell when the machine needs maintenance or adjusted. Or the floor used twice as much paper to strip so they start skipping grits to make up for paper loss. Or they're too lazy to grab a hammer and punch and set 'shiners'. . Or they don't vac between grits. Or they don't inspect the floor properly after the last supposed cut. Or they don't tack well before finish. Or they don't follow application procedures or coverage rates. Or they push dry times. Or they don't abrade between coats.......... Or in this case... they don't even have the right tool to scarf a board out of the floor and make a decent looking repair! (which by the way is not a 7 1/4" circular saw) Oh sorry, the install crew has such and such today can I use your tools?
I bet that isn't the only gouge in the floor (and if it is it could have been screened out with the spinner and/or hand sanded and feathered out). I bet the corners weren't scraped. I bet most nails haven't been set and filled. I bet there's trash in the finish. I bet the finish crew has about 6 months experience between them.
Don't blame the customer or 'communication' problems. You as a pro run the job.
Ditch
All I can say is "wow". The flooring contractor wins "Hack of the Year". The epitome of hack...
One question... with prep working/sanding that good, what do you do the final sand with?? A stump grinder? ;-)
Hey Ditch,
Now you da man ......where you from I may need an expert on a floor job of a house I "think" I'm gonna get within the next few weeks.
I finally sold the one I built/ renovated (see my website below). If all the deals go through ..... I have an accepted offer on a 322 year old colonial on two acres. A lot of the floors are very wide plank flooring with handmade nailheads showing.Way friggin cool looking. Thing is....a buncha dildos over the years painted the floors dozens of times it appears. Floors that are that old and that wide as you may imagine are really funky looking. HArdley smooth and gaps which all in all..as I said look way cool. Thing is I dont wanna sand the floors because that'd ruin the look totally as well as the nail heads. One end of the house slants down bad so I had this flash of carefully removing the planks with my flatbar and shimming/ furring/ whatever on top of the joists, to level the floors and see what the backs of the planks look like and possibly flipping them over and if that isnt feasable see what it might cost to have them "dipped stripped". Seems kinda dumb for me to try and strip them alone as it might take another 322 years. There arent miles of that wide plank flooring....maybe.....1500 sq ft...Any ideas?
Property 2 of 2
Cold Spring Harbor
View Image
Style
Bedrms
Baths
Property Size
School District
Price
Colonial
4
3
2
2
$799,000
Incredible historic circa 1680 Colonial on two flat acres. Generous size rooms, wide planked floors, two fireplaces and loft. Great house with all the charm an older home can offer.
Thanks
Be well
NAmaste'
Andy
PS...sorry to have changed the topic for a minute.
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 8/1/2002 9:03:31 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Edited 8/1/2002 9:08:09 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Andy, I have degree tucked away somewhere that says I am checked out on historical restorations, and what you just said makes me wonder if you will be the next dildo to frig this house up.
Don't mean to be harsh, but you need to get the bones of this house right before you worry about what the floors look like, (we can talk about them later). Restoration is a process you have to get your head around, and you have to become one with the end product.
Your sills and first deck are going to give you the most grief, and it looks like the ridge has a bit of sway in it. You may want to put a level on the front and back walls, and look at the gable ends to see if there is any blow out between floors. You want to light a fire in those fireplaces? It gets better and better, how up to speed are the mechanicals?
I love the realtors spin..."all the charm an older house can offer". Ya, I live in a new house, I don't need no stinkin charm. Couldn't afford the charm if I wanted it.
Q....I haveeeee put a level on all walls as well as dropped plumb lines from the upper floor windows and theyre all pretty plum except the rear which is wayyyyyyy out.. I spent a long time in the attic inspecting the roof rafters at the peak to see if they were coming apart and theyre as tight as being one (no ridge beam). The rear of the house has been poorly resided so when I rip the roof I will also rip the rear siding to redo it. I think the siding in the rear was done about thirty years ago and looks like crap. I was told by my local historic society that its just settled in the rear over the years and not to touch the framing. What my plan is (if this all goes through) is........the rear interior upper walls..... has sheetrock on them". I will remove the sheetrock and see whats shaking there. Hopefully I can sister up to the old studs.....new studs notched into the roof/plate framing to redistribute the load properly. I have zero intention of touching the old framing work..thats history in my mind but I'd love to see thew house stand another 320 years. There has also been termite damage from what I can see so the termites have been taken care of (because of me yelling and shouting at the owner). I will repair the eaten beams (trees : ) . This house looks very fragile in some respects duh and hasnt been cared for AT ALL!
As far as saying my concern was the floors. I never said it was a FIRST concern. I've been doing renovations and some restorations here on the north shore of Long Island for almost thirty years full time plussss....I know real well what I know and I know real well what I dont know...thats what I love about my work.....theres always so much more to learn from the past.....Why you would think that I may be another dildo makes me scratch my head. (see my website below for pics of my work) I have extensily been trying to get this house and sell mine for months now.....and within all that time reasearching the house and structure.....I even dug out reallyyyy old faded pictures of the house with the original porch over the front door as well as the steps that led up to a platform to get into the buggy which I will recreate if all goes through....and hey.maybe have an Andy Fest there.....Or should I say a Dildo Fest..yeh thats it,,cool..lol....I DONT have any historic degree somewhere from some collage..I just have about 27 years experiance in practical carpentry renovations and my meditations as a side line : ) So from one not harsh dildo to another :) you can count on me to find the answers from my local historic society as well as other dils. Stop by for a cold one bro. Spend a weekend.Bring the kids. Thanks .stay in touch..hope all goes through.......off to work
BE well
NAmaste
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 8/2/2002 8:40:30 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
I'm still curious about that shot you showed of the stair tread...does it match the rest of the treads, or just the floor scarfing job?...did those high recommendations come from people that liked you:)? You hired a hack, don't pay him til you get some prices on how to fix what he "fixed"...
Andy, I drop these bombs around here because it gets boring, and that stupit degree is probably sitting in a pile of things like pictures of me when I was a kid. You used dildo, I just re-used it to tweak your shorts.
Interesting that just the back wall went out, what does that tell you? I used to do a lot of work for historical societies, and I can't remember a time they had any useful info for getting a building right, they want to maintain. This is an interesting dance, saving the history. You may want to ask them why there is no ridge beam, and what type of top plate the walls have, every once in a while you find that they know something ;-).
I have an interesting option for your floors, but we hijacked this thread enough. I also think you can be good for that house, if you get headed off in the right direction.
And ya, I've seen your website, bravo. Do you want a medal? This house you are looking at IS your great great grandfather's Oldsmobile, a whole new game guy.
Andy,
I've been following your posts for a long time on that house. I remember the first time you tried to by it....the deal kept falling apart.
I know you want that house more than anything in the world. I thought you would have learned with the last one! You are one glutton for punishment, but houses like that take passion to restore and someone willing to take their lumps. I hope you get it this time.
If you do get it, start taking digital pics and posting them here the day you close.
I was following another post of yours...I think.... where you were talking about pulling the roof rafters back in tight and plumbing the back wall.
I like the idea about flipping the boards.....I should be about retired by the time the floors are ready to be finished. I'll have all kinds of free time then and would be happy to help :>
Ditch
"24 or 36 grit, 40 grit, 60 grit, water pop, 80 grit, 120."
What is "water pop"?? I want to think it means "take a break", but I'm not convincing myself....
Thanks,
Rich Beckman
Rich,
Water-pop is simply wiping the floor down with a wet rag to raise the grain, then making a few fine grit cuts and knocking the grain back down. This alleviates the grain raise caused by the first seal coat of water-borne finish.
Ditch
I'm a little curious about the comment that the finishers 'borrowed' his circular saw. Where was it...in plain sight or puit away? And what kind of person would borrow another's tool(s) without asking first?
Rich, 'Water pop' is just a different way of saying something that we furniture polishers have been doing for centuries, most commonly referred to as 'raising the grain'. Typically it's a technique used prior to colouring a timber with a dye or stain, (either of which might be oil, water, or spirit based) and then perhaps followed with tinted lacquers or polishes depending on the colour matching job, and all of these might include shellacs, nitro-cellulose lacquers, varnishes, etc in one mixture of layers or another. Floor polishing is in most cases is a very simplified version of furniture polishing because floor polishing contractors generally have neither the staff, nor the clients, nor the money to pay the staff, nor the time to actuallly do a truly custom finish. For the most part they just flop on whatever comes out of the can and follow the instructions supplied by the polish maker. Water based sealing products such as the commercially supplied urethanes and varnishes tend to 'raise the grain' unacceptably at the polish application stage, so a gash coat of (preferably) warm or hot water to raise the grain followed by a light sanding prior to the 'stain' and subsequent coats can be useful in preventing further grain raising at the polishing stage. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Sgian..I think U just answered my Q.......which was.......in finishing......both oil and water.......isn't raising the grain....the norm for a fine finishes? Oils raise the grain too...just not as much as water based.....right?? Jeff
actually..if it's something that's been done for generations....as I thought it were.......self explanatory........water based hasn't been around as long as "raising the grain" has!
She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
Edited 8/3/2002 2:37:44 AM ET by Jeff J. Buck
I met with the owner of the flooring company yesterday. I was in the backyard when he arrived, removing a roof and siding from the laundry room addition. There is a large "sky light" in the laundry room now.
There are some more details I can answer now that I got a chance to see the finished product, plus I want to answer questions that came up in this discussion.
1-He asked for 1/2 of the $3800 after two days of work. I was feeling generous so I gave him $2000 the day he called (this was an expected call, he never mentioned that he needed to be paid midway though project, but it is understandable). The remaining $1800 has not been paid yet, he expected to have it yesterday and was angry when he learned I didn't want to pay until I had someone else look at the floor first.
2-The waves are spaced a few inches apart, about 1-2 inches I would guess. I have posted better images so you can see the waves now.
3-The image I put up of the step showed the edge, not the front. The nosing is there, but is trimmed off the bottom of the image. I have posted a finished step.
4-The house is aprox. 1800 sq ft of wood flooring, plus 2 flights of steps.
5-You are correct, it is coated in a satin finish, I guess with a gloss it would really show the waves.
6-My saw was in the basement in a plastic bin. There is no wood floor in the basement so I assumed this was a safe place to put it. Apparently the wiring in the house wasn't strong enough for the sander so they had to plug right into the panel. They setup a ladder in front of it and took off the cover to do their wiring. I guess they saw my saw at that point. Amazingly, they left the panel cover off and ladder right up to it. I was quite upset at this one, my 3 year old son likes to climb, and if he saw that ladder he could have been hurt.
They fixed some of the problems I pointed out with this meshing and 4th coat. The waves are less pronounced and the hallway gouges aren't as deep. They filled in the cuts they made, but only filled cracks in the pieces they repaired. The crack filler looks more like plumbers putty. It is tan and soft. Very pliable. It doesn't fill the crack to the surface. The saw lines look just as bad with this filler as they did when unfilled. He still left some areas unsanded (half of one closet which is maybe 1ft x 8ft), and he left some 1/2 holes unfilled. There are a few large cracks in each room that were left unfilled.
What do I do now? I move into the house on the 14th. Can I wait to have this fixed until after the move? Should I continue to withhold payment? How should I inform him that I am doing this? There was never a contract put in place, just some notes he made on a pad of paper with the price and a few words of description. The $1800 I have left won't cover the cost to redo the floor, especially if I have furnature in the way. Would his insurance cover the additional cost?
I am really torn here. I don't want to cheat him. He did do work on the house, but in a way he left the house worse off than when he started.
Thank you for your advice
Apparently the wiring in the house wasn't strong enough for the sander so they had to plug right into the panel. They setup a ladder in front of it and took off the cover to do their wiring.
Even if you get the issue of floor refinishing quality (or lack thereof) resolved, tell him no pay until he either produces the electrical license of the bozo who was messing around in your box, or you'll deduct the cost of having an electrician come out an check out the box for problems. I've seen where floor refinishers double tap the service main at the main breaker and then didn't get the main service line set screw reset properly, causing a near meltdown.
Besides, think about this: for anyone who does the quality of work exposed io your photos in the trade they claim to know, what kind of work will they do in your main panel?
Get it checked out as soon as possible!
Amazingly, they left the panel cover off and ladder right up to it. I was quite upset at this one, my 3 year old son likes to climb, and if he saw that ladder he could have been hurt.
H*ll, he could have been killed. Anyone could have been killed!
Plus, IMO, anyone who leaves a panel open when they aren't working on it, much less after leaving the jobsite, should be arrested for reckless endangerment! We're talking dangerous idiot here! (The more I think about it, the angrier I get on your behalf!)
Yeah, I know "we do it all of the time! We know what we're doing!" BS. As a home inspector, I frequently see the electrical work by other trades and it's consequences. Fairly often they don't know what they are doing and are creating dangerous conditions.
I am really torn here. I don't want to cheat him. He did do work on the house, but in a way he left the house worse off than when he started.
You have answered your own question...don't feel bad for expecting him to do a reasonable job. Even if you relax your expectations from 'excellent' to 'reasonable' he hasn't attained that level. If the crack filler wasn't hard the next day, then he apparently used putty, which never will harden...one more oops on his part.
Here are the images
I still say the price was right for the size. I pay about $2.50/Sq Ft. But I get MUCH better work than this in an area where labor rates are on the highside.
The "patch" is unconscionable. My daughter could've done better when she was only fourteen. However, the wood in that floor seems to be thin too and barely worth redoing to start with, there is a nail showing near the cut hinting at this and the ding in the wood is too deep to have sanded out. The slobs probably reasoned in their minds that since it wasn't worth doing, it wasn't worth doing well in that room.
I'm with Bob on the electrical issue. In Maine, it can be a low class felony to tamper with electrical without a license because people get killed. I admitt to openning a box to tap 220, but do it walking on eggshells after being breifed by my electrician freind, and ALWAYS make it impossible for anyone else to get hurt in the meantime. I know that in some states, it is OK for remodelers to do minor electrical without a masters license, but leaving that cover off was insane.
You do have a problem with schedule and quality. To get the work done you would need to allow him access to an uncluttered workspace.
You have a couple options, as I see it;
A)tell him that he can fix it right - to your satisfaction before the 14th and get paid the full amount.
B)Offer to settle with him for 75-80% of total, only if you can live with it as is.
C)Pay him the full amount and kick yourself in the face every time you look at it for the next twenty years.
D)Tell him to F*** off and you never want to see him again or you'll Have your lawyer on him for ruining your floor and the cops if he ever sets foot in the property again.
I prefer giving him the choice of A or B, with D as a backup position. I would never accept C fopr this quality of workmanship.
You don't want to screw him but seem perfectly willing to let him screw you. I'm betting he sub-contracted this out on a perfoot basis to uninsured, untrained workers. He may not have paid them yet either so don't feel too bad about holding things up. While you have the money, you are in the drivers seat, You decide where to go.
If I hjad subcontract crews leaving something like this behind, I would be embarassed to ask for money. I would be begging for some way to make amends or compromise. And I would NEVER use those guys again.!
BTW, Many floor finishers don't recommend using filler here in coastal areas because of the high movement with seasonal changes in humidity. The filler glues individual boards together and the movement can crumble it out or split/check the board when or if they shrink. Old way was to fill with floor wax.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 8/3/2002 3:00:01 PM ET by piffin
Not to quibble (ok, that's what I'm doing) but the price he paid is reasonable for the amount of floor area, assuming a quality job. It's a three factor equation...change one of the factors, and it doesn't balance anymore.
I vote for option A or D, forget B & C.
That's OK, We can quibble all we want, It's not our money and I don't get the impression that's what the owner was really worried about. I only offered B because he seems in a mood to try to avoid a fight, he can vary the percentage and negotiate.Excellence is its own reward!
Whatever you do I have to agree with Piff, hang on to the money because once you give it up you in all likelihood give up the chance of correcting the prob.
That patch job just as well of been done with a piece of painted wood, that's always going to be uguly!
Doug
Matthew,
As I suspected the corners and edges weren't worked out very well. Doesn't look like they have an extension for their edger (if they even have an edger) as the floor under the radiator doesn't look like it was even touched. Finish slopped about 2 " up the baseboard. The oak step could have had at least a small roundover on the edge to match the one above it (seems they don't know what return nosing is). The saw kerfs in the floor, filled with silly putty, showcase the level of talent. The digs in the floor appear to be more than just machine chatter.
Tell the guy to settle for his 2 grand, that's generous on your part. ( He should admit the poor quality of the work and give you all your money back). He at least breaks even on the job. You gotta live with a bad re-finish.
That's what he gets for subbing HIS job out to a coupla schmoes.
Ditch
Sorry Jeff, what with my computer dying on me and other reasons why I couldn't get online, I missed your question for over a week. Yes, raising the grain is quite common in furniture polishing, and applies particularly if water based finishing products are being used. The finishing product may be anything water based, such as a dye or stain perhaps followed by water based polishes, or water based polishes alone (without dye[s] or stain[s].) Oil based finishes, such as shellac, pre-cat lacquers, varnishes, paints, etc., also raise the grain to a greater or lesser extent, and sometimes a thinned out light coat is applied first specifically to raise the grain. Oil based paint primers for example tend to raise the grain a quite a lot. Water based dyes have certainly been around for centuries-- some from the 1600's and earlier were natural plant extracts and so on for instance that were made up into a solution with water and/or other mediums. Typical modern 'aniline' dyes are of fairly recent vintage being discovered and refined since the mid-1800's, but the water based film forming varnishes often used today are of very recent invention; essentially within the last twenty or thirty years as far as being applied successfully with such simple tools such as common or garden paint brushes and rollers as well as more complex kit such as spraying. Slainte. RJFurniture
Worked in a cabinet shop some time back and the owner didn't really trust water based products- sanding sealers and contact cements in particular. Any recommendations you could make? Thanks
jc, I'm not quite sure what your question is, but here goes anyway. Water based sanding sealers with their water based film type finishing products, e.g., the urethane's and so on, certainly work very well if you're geared up for it. Water based dyes on the other hand are a somewhat different kettle of fish and have been used by furniture makers for a long time underneath other types of polish, such as shellac, oil based varnishes, and the nitro-cellulose family of finishes, as well as water based varnish. I mention this product because two of its advantages, specifically because it is water based, are the dye's light fastness as compared to dyes carried in other mediums, and its neutrality underneath everything else. In other words, dye the timber with a water based dye, and brushing on an oil based varnish will not lift it, whereas an oil based varnish might cause a spirit (alchohol) based dye to go 'splotchy'. I'm fairly sure that isn't answering your question either, but threw it into the ring anyway. And I'm not getting into stains, which are a whole different thing to dyes, unless you ask me to.
As to your second point regarding water based impact glue, or contact cement, I have to admit that I've not once had any success with the stuff, so I'm not surprised your ex-boss was wary of it. The last time I tried this water based muck was about a year ago, and it failed yet again, and I've only been intermittently attempting success with it since about 1977. I reckon I've about 17- 18 years to retirement, if I manage to live that long, and I'll be in no hurry to test the stuff again in those next seventeen years, ha, ha. At this stage, I'm also still not a fan of water based finishes-- all the ones I've tried looked a bit 'plasticky' or had a bit of 'blue' haze, or had adhesion problems layer on layer, so I'm still polishing furniture with the nitro-cellulose based stuff, oil varnishes, shellac based stuff, wax, and pure oils, but then I'm a furniture guy, not a house builder. My priorities are different. Slainte.RJFurniture
Thanks
matthew;
you don't have oak floors, looks like red fir or yellow pine, I think it is fir, was your floor man the low bidder?
80 years of drying twisting warping and ware and tear. There will be some varition in finish. Are the waves 3-4" apart or 12-15" apart? narrow waves are down to the machine, wide waves could be due to floor flex between the joists. I at most would kill the shine and finish with a satin or low gloss. The repairs are rough going by your pictures. Is the repair in the pantry his work or following another trade? i.e. electric or plumbing.
Evenly spaced waves are caused by either out of round drum wheels or an out of round drum pad. It is increased in intensity by running the first cut to slow, the following cuts following the pattern. Dropping the drum on a piece of 60g sand paper will level out any out of round problems. Most Oak floors require no more than a 40, 60, and 100g drum pass. Screen w/100g. I'm not a "waterbaser" though, so water popping doesn't happen, or the excessive sanding passes to accept the water based finishes. I work mostly in million dollar homes and they all get Duraseal Oil polyurethane. I get "0" complaints in regards to this coating, a coating that I have used for 20 years. GW
Greg:
Darn you are a hard guy to reach. I've been trying to contact you. Your email on the nwfa.org site is wrong. Give me a shout I have something you may be interested in.
Ken Fisher
[email protected]
Greg,
Better learn "Water", VOCs and the Feds are forcing the issue, I believe you guys out West have already lost some good products.
Ditch
I know how to use water based products, but I believe that since the water based manufacturers continue to reformulate their product every three or four years tells me that the previous generations were not satisfactory. Why would I want to subject my clients to that form of testing to the benefit of Bonakimi? Duraseal oil hasn't changed generations as long as I have used the product and it produces great results that my clients can attest to. As far as removal of the VOC's. Glitsa has 750 voc's per liter.(Duraseal has 450) They were able to lobby the EPA to recategorize their product as a conversion varnish, which has no voc restrictions. I stopped using that product when the whitewash finishing craze ended ten years ago.(it doesn't yellow). I will be long out of the business before the government closes these non-water based companies doors, if ever. GW
Our floor man recently told me of a phenomenon that he has run into on certain floors.
It seems that certain floors that are "under built" will have a resonant vibration to them and when sanding them this will translate to small waves in the sanded surface.
The first pass waves may be barely perceptible but will be "amplified" by successive passes.
Boss Hog posted a reference to the same type of phenomenon resulting in properly engineered floors (for loads and deflection) Having an annoying bounce or vibration.
Any one else run across this?
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
T,
That sounds like the same Phenomenon/action that creates washboard on gravel roads when the tires slip from accelerating uphill where speed is a factor. If it applies...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin!
You back!
some one said wethead ate you!
have a good trip?
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Just had our oak PARQUET floors resanded, stained, and coated.
Each parquet consists of four 3/4" thick oak. Interesting thing is that
some of them seem slightly wavy between adjacent boards within the same tile. Hmmmmm.. Could it be that adjacent boards were not
originally of the same thickness ? Maybe the sander just rides over
these boards, preserving something of their original variation ?
I'm not exactly sure. I can easily live with a floor having this "character", but the photo of your floor does look a bit screwball.
Ed
The guy used you like a tool. Get pissed and DONT pay him. Your asperations were honorable and his was $$$. You got screwed big time my brother. Take pictures and take him to court. People like him are gonna screw others so do em' all a favor and dont be so shy,,,,,, The dude SCREWED YOU! Dont be a jerk.....I aint being and never have been beyond blunt......27 year in the biz my brother......youve been taken.......take him back! Dont be so timid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Money aint easy ti come by when it comes to workin with your hands heart and mind...We ain dealin in street here and we aint lawyers making zillion bucks an hour.
Be well
Namaste
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM