Looking for some advice.
We’re going to build a timberframe home on lake property we own. We found a newly local timberframer/builder that we thought we could work with. Initially we were excited to find someone local with timberframing experience that was willing to build the frame and GC the whole job. Since then, our positive feelings about working with him have been going south.
Specifically, he has not returned phone calls after leaving repeated messages with him, missed a review meeting with us without any excuse and, most importantly, has not provided solid references after several requests. In addition, his initial quote was a single number, without any details.
The kicker was this: since we were having a hard time getting him to provide references (“I don’t like to bother my former clients that way”), when we saw a picture in a magazine that was exactly the same as one he provided us, we called the company the ad was for. They had NOTHING positive to say. Very negative things, in fact, involving a nasty lawsuit.
We contacted our builder to get his side, and received an explosive email in return–clearly there was no love lost between he and that company. Our feeling is that the truth is somewhere between the two stories.
At this point, we haven’t been able to talk to anyone that he’s actually built a timberframe for. We’ve seen pictures of projects he’s worked on, but he’s a little unclear about exactly what his role in those was. We still want to believe he’s an honest businessman, but, lacking other references, what are we to think?
At this point, no money has changed hands and we don’t have a contract with him.
We wanted to give this guy a shot, but the lack of references, combined with our unresolved concerns about his experience and the quality of his work makes us think we need to look elsewhere. Actually, at this point, our gut tells us that we should run from this guy. Are we right?
Leigh
Replies
Follow your gut. There is a reason he doesn't have ref.s. He knows that and won't come clean w/ you about it. He has prob figured he's already lost the job, esp if he knows you have checked him out through the mag photo comp and therefore is not going to invest any more of his time on the prospect.
Move on - he has - and get yourself another GC. They are out there. You may have to get on a waiting list for the good ones. Not to worry, it takes time to go from wanting to build a house, to defining the house, to breaking ground. Think of it as well spent design time.
F.
Amen. After reading your post, I can't believe you'd even ask the question.
Well, okay, good point. We kept hoping it was going to get better, but once I actually wrote it all out, it was clear that we should find someone else.
Leigh
We kept hoping it was going to get better
It won't. You can bet on that. He's giving you his "best" right now if he really wants the job. If this is his best, he's in trouble. It will never get better, just worse. Much worse. And probably very frustrating and expensive as well.
You're all right, of course. And now it seems so obvious. I should have realized that before posting here, of all places. But, when you're too close to a subject, it's good to get an outside perspective.
Thanks, everyone. And if you have an obvious question about cooking, feel free to direct it towards me over at CT.
Leigh
It's unfortunate that he handled it the way he did. Even a rookie builder needs a break to get started, and maybe the two of you cvould have worked well together. But apparently he's burned too many bridges.
Just curious...which lake? My mother lived in Heber Springs for many years.
There's a thread in this group by Tim Mooney titled something like "From the desk of the inspector". He's a building inspector in the Little Rock area. Send him a private email and maybe he can steer you towartd a reputable builder.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Edited 6/17/2004 8:22 pm ET by Ed Hilton
Yeah, we're disappointed it didn't work out--we were looking forward to working with him. Despite my post, there were some positive things about the relationship. Unfortunately the negative outweighed that.
It's Greers Ferry Lake, and our property is just across the lake from Heber Springs in Tumbling Shoals (across from the Dam Site park if you know where that is). My MIL has lived there for 30 years and was very active in the community until recently--she may have known your mother.
I've read Tim's posts, but didn't realize he's in the Little Rock area. Thanks for letting me know!
Leigh
My mother had a place on the west side of town, by the marina at the state camp ground. I forget the highway numbers. Go through town, past the hospital, turn right just past the bait shop, go past the VFW hall, turn right into Cricket Cove. She lived there from about 80 until she died in 98 or 99.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Small world. I know exactly where you're talking about--we can see the marina from our place.
Leigh
This may be naive, but is there a better business bureau in the area?--they may have previous complaints against this guy on record. Also, anyone can take pictures; you couldn't be sure he even worked on the job he has pics for.
Checking the BBB is a good idea when you're dealing with an unfamiliar business, and it is something we did initially.
He's new to the area, though, so the state BBB didn't have anything on him. I tried Michigan's and Oklahoma's (the two states where he's worked before), but nothing came up on his name, but of course, the listings are geared to business names, and you have to have the name correct to get the information.
And I agree about the pictures. In his defense, most of the ones he showed us were snapshots taken by someone working on the job, and he was in a few of them, but pictures don't tell you exactly what someone's role on the job was. The one we saw in the magazine was scanned and emailed.
Leigh
A word on the BBB. Only businesses that register with BBB will have a rating. So if a business gets a bad ratting they just drop there membership or never join in the first place. Kinda pointless as a refrence, just like the good house keeping seal of aproval; you pay them and your aproved.
Ditto what the other guys said - Lose the guy now.
If he won't return phone calls now, whay would you think he would once you started construction of a house?
Governments never learn. Only people learn. [Milton Friedman]
If he won't return phone calls now, whay would you think he would once you started construction of a house?
Yet another good point. My only answer is "An unending well of optimism?"
Leigh
PLEASE PLEASE don't give him any money!!
You must get references from previous customers and from his bank. A deposite may go to paying off other job.
Timberframe on lake property... Hmmmm. Most jobs like that around here are done by complete whacos. <G>
What's your time frame? We have a frequent poster that does beautiful lake front timber frames. He might be looking for a new project in a couple of years. If your handle is any reflection of your character the two of you ought to get along great! <G>
Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
And if she wants to see some pictures of his work?
Joe H
"And if she wants to see some pictures of his work?"
ROFLMAO!! I guess she'd have to go there and take them herself!! Maybe she could post 'em for the rest of us!!
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
LOL- forget it!Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
Two things to love... Those that answer themselves..... and indicisiveness..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Imerc mentioned indecisivness, but indecision is the key to flexibility. - lol
Edited 6/20/2004 9:18 am ET by Dave
Hell yeah... Let's change our minds, alot...
There some good money out there in CO's...........
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
But CO's can get a little scary, too.
I'm building an entertainment center and fireplace mantle for a customer. As we got to the end of the design phase, they suddenly wanted bifold flipper doors, a pullout/swivel TV shelf, and glass paned doors in the lower section. When I told them the (substantially) increased price, they almost lost it. I had to do some serious selling to show that the last changes were also the most expensive.
To add to the fun, they told me that someone else was quoting a price about half of mine. I'm not sure how effective it was, but I asked for the guys name because I would gladly hold his lunch just so I could see how he could do the job for half. They signed up the next day!
they told me that someone else was quoting a price about half of mine. I wonder if they were telling the truth, or just trying to get you to lower your price. If it was a ploy, that would make me mad. It's one thing to ask for a better price, but a hole nutter story to make up a lie. OTOH, you have to give them credit for not going with a substandard price.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
they told me that someone else was quoting a price about half of mine.
Heard that one more than once...
When I told them the (substantially) increased price, they almost lost it.
But this one takes the cake... Some clients get flat out nasty when you mention the cost increase...... They always want more for free....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Despite my "indecisiveness" I know exactly what you mean.
I deal with this constantly where I work (we do expensive custom work for rich folks' and corporations' private jets). You're 3/4 of the way through with a project, and suddenly they want major changes to about half of it, don't want to pay for any of the change order and oh, by the way, the delivery schedule has to move to the left, too.
I think some of them have never heard the word "no."
Leigh
No just gets you some kind of nasty tantrum...
The more effluent... The nastier they are....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
The more effluent... The nastier they are....
Please tell me that was a play on words..if it was, your a genius, if not..ya did get real lucky.
Affluent and effluent..now throw in the nasty...great hat trick
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"The more effluent... The nastier they are...."
you know what those cow magnates are like... ;-)
m
more like a fly magnate
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
No luck involved on that one...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
that was good..I might steal it tho'..lol
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
And so many don't catch it...
Those get flushed...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
What did the flushed fly say?
"Wow! What a ride!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"But, as you obviously realize, that generosity of spirit must be tempered with pragmatic realism so that when you sense a rip-off or a person ready to drag you into their nightmare, you can simply disengage before things get sticky. Which sounds exactly like what you'll do."IMERC. focus on building styles rather then smack writing. - Prota
They rank in there with those that have appointed and annoited confused...
Time to drive on and leave them to their own little world.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Yes, school is out for now then for my friend. Please keep an eye out for requested building suggestions and aid when needed. - Wow is right! ;)
School's not out...
gotta have some recess time some time... can't be work all the time...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Hmmm... new professor in your class too hu?
Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
Googeled protagora as your profile says ziltch other than you are fairly new...
Italian opera / drama perhaps??? This yur stage now 'cause yur outta school???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
ancient Greek philosopher (Protagoras)
Center stage Act 1; Scene 1.... Main character in drama?
seems to translate to pivot man....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Protogora (pro tuh ghor uh) n. : Protoplasm with large frontal horn. See also Microrhino
where you been
oh wait, I been gone, never mind"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
WAIT!!!!... HOLD THE PHONE...
SCHOOL IS OUT...
VACATION TIME...
FUN... GAMES... LET THE PARTY BEGIN...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
IMERC
Excellent little change of meaning. There was a contest at some paper on changing the meaning of words by changing one letter that someone e-mailed me. Please note this IS NOT directed at you. The word was ignoramus. Change the m to an n and it means not only are you stupid but an a**hole as well. I immediately put it into my vocabulary.
Cheers
Mac
Mmmmm..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
What do work on???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
We do the entertainment (DVD, LCD monitors, AV boxes, speakers, surround sound, etc.) and cabin management systems (Touchscreen controls, behind-the-scenes boxes, membrane switch passenger controls, etc.) for all kinds of private, corporate and head-of-state jets.
I'm a project manager. Okay, the only project manager.
Leigh
Run ,Move on, you got the feeling......................
In answer to the question you posed in the thread topic. . .
Is the Pope Catholic?
You're to be commended, however, for you open-mindedness toward the situation and your earnest desire to treat people fairly. That kind of generosity is a great way to sow good-will seeds, and I'd guess that it comes back to you in all kinds of ways.
But, as you obviously realize, that generosity of spirit must be tempered with pragmatic realism so that when you sense a rip-off or a person ready to drag you into their nightmare, you can simply disengage before things get sticky. Which sounds exactly like what you'll do.
When you find the right builder, you'll definitely know by his handshake and the look in their eye--and the references will only confirm it.
That's my 2-cents, anyway.
Thanks for the feedback.
That kind of generosity is a great way to sow good-will seeds, and I'd guess that it comes back to you in all kinds of ways.
It does. I've found it to be the healthiest and most productive way for me to live.
that generosity of spirit must be tempered with pragmatic realism so that when you sense a rip-off or a person ready to drag you into their nightmare, you can simply disengage before things get sticky.
Unfortunately, I've learned that through painful lessons. More than a few.
When you find the right builder, you'll definitely know by his handshake and the look in their eye--and the references will only confirm it.
I sure do hope so!
Leigh
sshhhhh..he'll get all affluent on us..sshhhh
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.