My shower has an extremely slow leak and I need some help figuring out where it’s coming from (before I start opening up walls).
Details:
Shower has 3 handles (hot, cold, and shower/tub selector)
Brand is Gerber
Water leaks only when water is running
Leak is very slow (~1/16 to 1/8 cup of water after a ~45 HOT shower –
based on what is in bucket under leak in ceiling)
Water in bucket was COLD
Recently replaced rubber washer on cold stem (spout was dripping cold water) – I did not replace the white plastic washer on stem between mixer “harness” and stem.
A check with the faucet cover off (with water running) doesn’t show any water leaking (but it’s a small hole in the tile and I might not be seeing it)
All decorative face plates are caulked with new silicone tub/shower caulk.
Questions:
Can I assume it’s not a broken soldered joint since it only leaks when the water is running?
The water in the bucket was cold, so I assume it’s the cold water side leaking.
Could it be that the stem is slowly leaking? Should I just buy a new stem assembly rather than replace the washers?
Any help or direction you can provide would be great. I can’t actually see the assembly from underneath the tub area. I would have to cut an access hole (into wallpaper) although I would still not know what to look for.
Thanks in advance.
Replies
My first guess would be that it's a leak in the valve body, or, depending on how it's put together, the pipe between cold valve and faucet.
I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and open up the wall, but before you do, try running the shower with the trim plate removed and plumber's putty packed around the cold valve so that any leaking water from the stem area will drain into the tub. If you still get the leak below with that setup, open the wall, otherwise redo the stem packing.
Emaxx
Lot of info in your post - good job characterizing the problem.
DanH says he's a double E, so take what he says about plumbing with a grain of salt - don't plumbers putty anything, at least not yet. Do a few other things first.
You say the leak occurs only when the valves are open, so the leak is at H or C supply valve(s) or downstream.
You say the leak is cold only - your sure its not lukewarm or has cooled inside the wall? Run hot only - if there is no leak then it IS the cold side, between the C valve and the diverter valve.
(It might also be good to know if the leak occurs when the diverter valve is turned to tub spout rather than shower).
You have recently replaced washer on the C stem, did the leak start after that? If so, and it only leaks with C valve open, your leak is at the C valve stem to valve body. Depending on the age and design, there is stem packing or an o-ring or such. And you have damaged that in replacing the washer or you don't have the packing quite tight, or something. If you have room with the C valve bonnet removed, probe below the valve stem with TP taped to a stick or wire. See if it comes out wet (when the valve is open vs. closed).
Good luck.
Jim x 3
> You say the leak is cold only - your sure its not lukewarm or has cooled inside the wall? Run hot only - if there is no leak then it IS the cold side, between the C valve and the diverter valve.I thought about suggesting this, but realized it wouldn't prove anything. With the cold valve shut hot water will force its way all the way back into the cold valve (if the leak is there), so you'd still have the leak, and would have no additional information as to where it's located.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Dan
Good point. And Sledgehammer's suggestion about other possibilities such as a drain side leak was also good. Does the leak occur when water is running into a stoppered tub?
Regards,
Jim x 3
Does the leak occur when water is running into a stoppered tub?
The stopper is not in use.
The point is, if you stopper the tub and run water into it, you'll be able to detect, eg, a leak around the drain fitting.And if you take a shower with the stopper in, and it DOESN'T leak, that will point towards a leak in the drain pipe.The other obvious place for a leak is simply in the shower wall, either water leaking through the tile, through cracks in the caulk, or around the trim rings on the faucet fittings. These can generally be eliminated as possibilities by adjusting the shower head so that no spray impinges anywhere except into the tub, then running the shower "unmanned" for 10 minutes or so.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
You say the leak is cold only - your sure its not lukewarm or has cooled inside the wall? Run hot only - if there is no leak then it IS the cold side, between the C valve and the diverter valve.
It's possible that it cooled somewhat in the wall cavity. It's not that cold in the wall cavity but it was such a small amount that it could've cooled quickly. If I had to guess, I would say it was only cold water leaking since the water was pretty cold and I checked it as soon as I got out.
(It might also be good to know if the leak occurs when the diverter valve is turned to tub spout rather than shower).
I was taking a shower when it leaked. I'll have to check to see if it leaks when turned to the tub spout.
Why is it you think it's in the valve and not a wall or drain leak?
I can't say for sure 100% what or where the leak is. I don't think it's drain issue because I can see the drain from underneath. I can't see the valve assembly though. Plus, even though water can travel, I don't feel any wetness in the space in the direction of the drain. My initial thought was that it was an issue with the valve since the leak (in the wall) started after I replaced the washer on the stem.
You don't indicate how old this plumbing is.
I say, only somewhat facetiously, somehow remove the ancient and install temp and pressure balanced Moen or otherwise and move on. Life is too short for defunct plumbing.
Cheers
You don't indicate how old this plumbing is.
I say, only somewhat facetiously, somehow remove the ancient and install temp and pressure balanced Moen or otherwise and move on. Life is too short for defunct plumbing.
I've been in the house 10 years. I know the house went thru a major renovation (all rooms) about 25 years ago. I would not be surprised at all that the plumbing is at least that old.
Replacing the valve would mean tearing out the tile, would it not? If that is the case, that is totally out of the question. I will check though. A neighbor down the street builds houses. I'll ask him what he would charge. If it doesn't require a complete removal of all the tile, then I may be up for a single handle mixer.
Edited 8/23/2009 12:03 am ET by emaxxman00
Edited 8/23/2009 12:03 am ET by emaxxman00
If the leak sarted after you worked on it , then go back and redo your work.
Don't you just hate callbacks?
I will buy a complete new stem and replace the cold side. That is the one that I had worked on.
Unfortunately, I can't get to the back side of the valve assembly. It's the exterior wall of the house. At best, I will have to get into it from the side. I'll just cut the drywall neatly and build a wooden access door (in case I need to get to it in the future again).
Can you get to the back of the valve through another room? Drywall is easy to repair, tile not so much.
The faucet can probably be replaced through the back wall, without tearing out the tile. Some sort of treatment (eg, a stainless-steel cover plate) may be needed to cover existing holes, if the new faucet doesn't fit back in them. And there are some faucets made especially for this job, with an extra-large trim plate that would cover an access hole through the tile.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Go for the single handle pressure-balanced kit. You can buy a "goof plate" that will cover the three handle holes.
It is possible to do it all from the front. You can trace the goof plate template on the wall and cut through tile and backer with a $10 diamond bit in a Dremel. But you don't know what you'll find inside. It can be very challenging to sweat in a new valve body through such a small opening. If you have access the back, cut an opening and close it up with an access panel.
I'd check the stem again. Re-pack all the stems. Can you re-pack the mixer stem? I lube them well with plumbers faucet lube and then pack them and tighten them tight. They will loosen up over time.
Old faucets work fine. They just need attention once in a while and when they do they are re-buildable.
Some of these new designs are junk IMO. And they need a whole cartridge assembly replaced instead of a washer.
Will Rogers
Remove showerhead, put a cap on the shower arm and turn on the shower. If no leaks, look to the walls and drain. If it does leak , go find some demo tools, hopefully you can get to it from the other side of the wall.
I'd suspect the shower arm riser and specifically the connection of the threaded shower arm to the shower elbow in the wall behind it at the head level. I like the idea of capping the shower arm and pressurizing the riser to draw out the leak location but I'd start with pulling the shower arm, doping it up good and re-installing to see if that is the issue.
m
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I'd suspect the shower arm riser and specifically the connection of the threaded shower arm to the shower elbow in the wall behind it at the head level. I like the idea of capping the shower arm and pressurizing the riser to draw out the leak location but I'd start with pulling the shower arm, doping it up good and re-installing to see if that is the issue.
If I run the diverter in tub mode, will that rule out the shower arm?
If I run the diverter in tub mode, will that rule out the shower arm?Yes, that should rule that out.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
In response to...
Replacing the valve would mean tearing out the tile, would it not? If that is the case, that is totally out of the question. I will check though. A neighbor down the street builds houses. I'll ask him what he would charge. If it doesn't require a complete removal of all the tile, then I may be up for a single handle mixer.I'd check that the shower arm isn't the culprit first though. Could be as simple as that. If you wind up deciding to replace the body...
can you get to it from the back was my first thought, then the replacement valve with oversized cover. these guys are good. Another possibility is some sort of decorative tile replacement at the area where you remove tile. Like a border of different color and tile of similar color to the old wall tile inside that. Maybe on a diagonal?
Also, i'd check with someone who does remodeling instead of a new home builder as they most likely will have more experience with this type of problem.
Hi all,
I'm stumped. The leak has somehow "disappeared". I ran the water in tub mode and shower mode for at least an hour. Nothing. I've fished around the area underneath the shower and can't find any wet spots. It's been a week since the leak first appeared and the bucket under where it was leaking is completely dry.
The only thing I can think of is that the weight of a body standing in the tub is causing the leak to appear. Not sure if this makes sense though since I've been using it for a week now.
I checked all over the ceilings in the family room and living room underneath the tub and can't find any soft spots that would allude to the water running elsewhere.
So what do I do now? I still haven't opened up the wall in the bath to get a full view of the plumbing.
"So what do I do now?"
Take an hour shower.
You can't fix it if it's not leaking.
Are you saying you take a 45-minute shower?! I can't seem to get past that.
Are you saying you take a 45-minute shower?! I can't seem to get past that.
That was 3 people taking showers...although I have been known to take long showers in the past (back during my gym days when a sore body needed the soothing heat).
OK, I've cut an access hole in the wall next to the shower so I can see the plumbing. I've attached some pics for you to see what I found.
I ran the shower in various states of hot or cold only/tub or shower only. No leaks after an hour.
I had my wife take a 20 minute shower while I checked for leaks around the valves. I did not find any water leaking from the valve, stem locations , or joints.
The shower stem wasn't leaking either (but I couldn't get a good pic.)
A leak started AFTER my wife got into the shower and stopped after she got (with the water still running).
The leak was not visible from the access hole in the bathroom
I suspect a problem with the drain but I need to figure out where to cut the ceiling below to get access.
Does this sound like a drain issue? If yes, why does it leak only when someone's in the shower?
Given the condition of the valve (and the disgusting mess of scraps in the wall), I might just bite the bullet and tear our the tub and shower. I just would like to know where the leak is before I do that. Would hate to renovate the whole bath to still have a leak.
Enameled Steel tub. It could be flexing under body weight. Is it mortared in? You may not be able to tell. I can't imagine it's flexing enough to cause a leak to occur, but i may be wrong. It looks like you have access to the drain. Fold up some paper towels and stick them under the drain. Talk someone into taking another shower and then remove the paper towels. If it's wet, you have a drain problem.On closer inspection of the last photo, your green board looks bad at the tub lip to the left side of the photo. Could the leak be coming from there?
Edited 8/30/2009 4:44 pm ET by rnsykes
Enameled Steel tub. It could be flexing under body weight. Is it mortared in?
It is not mortared. I can see it from below.
You may not be able to tell. I can't imagine it's flexing enough to cause a leak to occur, but i may be wrong. It looks like you have access to the drain. Fold up some paper towels and stick them under the drain. Talk someone into taking another shower and then remove the paper towels. If it's wet, you have a drain problem.
I had stuck a wad of paper towels on the end of an electrician's snake. I fished around (from the family room below) to see if I could find any wet spots that weren't visible. I didn't find any.
I will place some towels underneath the drain and try to replicate the leak again.
On closer inspection of the last photo, your green board looks bad at the tub lip to the left side of the photo. Could the leak be coming from there?
I was able to stick a finger in to the lip of the tub near the rotted green board. There is some dampness in the lip. However, there isn't any dampness or wet spots around the floor by that spot.
I wonder if the weight of a body is causing the tub to flex, like you said, to allow the water to flow past the green board rather than being soaked into it?
"I suspect a problem with the drain but I need to figure out where to cut the ceiling below to get access."I would start right where the leak is coming through. It's just as easy to patch a 3' square hole as a 1' square hole IMO.
Have her stand in the tub, but run water down the spout and not the shower head. If it is the drain then the leak will show up then.But my guess is that it is at the tub tile line or maybe around the shower curtain..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
But my guess is that it is at the tub tile line or maybe around the shower curtain.
What do you mean by "around the shower curtain"?
Around the show curtain is a far shot and you would have probably seen it by now. Actually I wrote shower door, which I have seen leak around the bottom or the sides, but then looked back and saw the picture and changed it to curtain.And to your other question, yes grout will leak water. But I doubt that it will leak enough water for it to be running out unless there is section missing. More often what happens is that unsealed grout allows water behind the tile and it it rots the greenboard and/or framing util tile falls off the wall or mushrooms start growing or the toilet falls through the floor..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Looking at your pictures, you might just have water coming through where the valves and other stuff is. You have lots of water stains around the area.
The green board (never was approved for this use) is starting to fall apart. Try packing a round the valve bodies, tub filler hole and diverter hole.
Looking at your pictures, you might just have water coming through where the valves and other stuff is. You have lots of water stains around the area.
Just throwing this out there...is it possible for the water to be seeping thru the grout? Grout is quite old.
The green board (never was approved for this use) is starting to fall apart. Try packing a round the valve bodies, tub filler hole and diverter hole.
What do I pack it with? Plumber's putty? Any specific type of plumber's putty.
Thanks all for the help so far. Plumbing is not a strength of mine as you can tell. I'm just a homeowner/diy'er and painting, woodworking, general carpentry is more my liking.
plumbers putty will work, just pack it in goog!
*Enameled steel tub, which will flex a little when someone stands in it.
*It only leaks when someone is in the tub and shower is on.
*Green board is badly damaged at the lip of the tub
*Water appears in the ceiling below at the area circled in your picture.There is a diagonal stamped steel brace on the tub stretching from the area of green board damage to the floor near where water is seeping through the ceiling. Could leakage under the tile/tub interface be soaking through the green board and running down that strut to the floor?BruceT
Edited 8/30/2009 10:43 pm by brucet9
I opened the wall up a little more to get some more reach. I felt all along the lip of the tub an it's quite damp. I then, after a closer inspection, found A LOT of cracked grout lines on the faucet wall and the adjoining wall.
My guess is that the water was running the course of the tub lip and draining down the edge of the tub that is closest to the rest of the bathroom. That would possibly explain why the water is dripping on the ceiling away from the drain.
I'm going to get some clear plastic sheets tomorrow and hang it up all around the shower to keep the walls dry. I will then run the water from the tub spout only and have my wife stand in it. I'll check to see if the water still leaks. If will also open up the ceiling some more ( need to anyway to fix the hole properly). Hopefully I can get a good look at the dripping edge.
At the very least, I'm going to have to regrout the tub. My wife and I were at Lowes pricing out materials to redo the bath. We had money set aside to fix up the dining room but that will have to wait. This is not the first time that this bathroom has given us trouble.
Trick will be to get the old tub out and reinstall to a point where I can shower again quickly. We only have 1 shower.
BTW, I just wanted to say that I am disgusted by the amount of garbage and scrap construction debris in this wall cavity. Did it not occur to the previous renovators to pick up the scrap wood before drywalling? Hell, there's even 3 old empty toilet paper rolls and an old bottle of shampoo.
Well, spent 2 days with dad's help to completely remove all the tile and greenboard. Greenboard was so rotted on the bottom 3 rows that I was able to pull the tile off with my bare hands. Paper (stuck to tile) pull away from the rock like peel and stick tape.
Since we had the walls open, I put in a new single handle with thermal control mixer. We also took the time to add some blocking behind the shower head, tub spout, and mixer. Everything is now well screwed in.
We added a poly vapor barrier and 1/2" hardie backer all around. I've got a poly tarp in the shower so we can continue to use it (only shower in the house) but hopefully this will last us for decades to come...or until the wife grows tired of the tile. :-P