I have 4 shower pans that failed inspection. Three are in framing and one is on a slab in a basement. They failed because the drains are too high. About 3/4 of an inch.
The plumber says he does it this way all the time. He is not a small time plumber by any stretch And he is a certified plumbing inspector in New York. I live in New Jersey. The inspector says their shoud have been an extra layer of 3/4 plywood put down first, before the FG. He says the pan will collect water that cannot reach the weep holes. The Plumber says thats crazy, the water is never really going to transport thourgh the tile and mud. he says the pan is there in the event that (down the road, years from now) the shower floor fails the pan will keep the first floor from being flooded.
I’m looking for a source that details the proper installation for a shower drain in a fiberglass pan. Since I am pretty much in the inspectors camp I ‘m also looking for a repair / repalcement procedure. The Plumber is saying tear the pans out add the plywood is the only way. The fiberglass guy says to cut out the drains and lower them. Plumber says that won’t work.
Marc
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime!
This is mostly a bump, as I'm not familiar with fiberglass pans. I have seen lots of copper pans and pvc pans though.
If your plumber thinks tile and mud will not transport water, he's crazy. It will absolutely move water, albeit slowly. The pan is critical, and needs to somehow dump into the drain. What does the pan/drain intersection look like now? Can you post a photo?
I've never done a fiberglass pan either ...
but again ... based on a mud bed pan ...
the plumber is wrong.
either way ... fiberglass or mudbed ... tile and mudbed ain't waterproof.
ask the plumber if that's the case ... why the membrane or fiberglass?
with a mudbed and membrane ... the drain assembly is a two part clamping drain.
with a threaded ... therefore adjustable ... final drain assembly ... threaded into it.
so the drain's gotta be set flat ... and the membrane is clamped into it.
then the final height is set by me ... the guy who pounds the mud.
3/4 would leave a 3/4 hump ... in the membrane ... and defeat the whole purpose.
I'm wondering if the wrong kinda drain was used?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks Guys. I'll get pictures today.
Marc
Fiberglass pans are the norm in the the North East, at least to my knowledge.
I know the mud will cover this, the question is: Will the pan collect water under the mud? Should it be left this way? Plumber says this is not a problem. Inspector say's fix it.
I would like to find a specification that details the correct installation.
How do you support the flange from under the floor if the flange is flush to the top of the floor?
Marc
Marc,As Jeff explained, tile and grout are not waterproof. Neither is the preslope or mud deck. Have you considered a 'Kerdi' shower? It is a waterprrof system.
Check out this site. They are the tile and shower gurus.http://www.johnbridge.com Then click on 'Tile Forums'Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I'm afraid that I'm too pressed for time to consider a new shower pan system. I have 4 showers that are already fiberglassed. They won't pass inspection and I need to find a sloution/repair.
Marc
I think that the water will pool up to the level of the drain and stay that way.
Right now, with four shower pans ready to go, it seems like you are faced with the impossible. Think three years down the road. Four shower pans will seem insignificant.
I built my first block wall in 1981, in Tampa, to replace my carport with a kitchen. The wall started out just a little off and got worse. By the time I got it about five feet high, it looked awful. It took me about four days to create that mess, and I had no money to spare.
Finally, I got out the sledge and had the wall out of there in about 20 minutes. The neighbors got a few chuckles out of it. I rebuilt that section of wall straight enough to be proud of it and it only took me a day this time.
Looking back, I am glad I removed the wall when I did.
Any solution is going to take some time. The Kerdi system may be able to be worked directly over you fiberglass and the Kerdi drain most likely can be easily adapted to your current drain.
With regard to the existing pan, if you have standing water in the pan, it will go anaerobic quickly and your shower will smell like **** (real bad smell). While the pan maybe watertight, stagnant water can grow some smelly bugs. One builder around here built lots of showers with no preslope. They didn't leak, but they smell like hell. We did three neighbors in a row.
Bruce
Thanks for the comments
I have convinced my tile installer to install the a pre-slope mud deck on top of the existing fiberglass pans. I showed him this from Oatey: [http://www.oatey.com]. As it stands we are planing to install a new fiberglass Pan (liner) over the pre-slope deck. I have not reached the FG guy yet to confirm that he will do this. Marc
your latest plan sounds like the best fix if the fiberglass guy will go for it.
like I said ... have zero experience/knowledge of fiberglass ...
but in theory ... a pan is a pan ...
and they should be laid over a preslope of some sort ...
to direct any water toward the drain weep holes.
I'm thinking I agree with the inspector ... as the water will just collect ... and sit ... and stink .... and build up ... for years ... to reach the "too high" weep holes.
With a mudbed ... over the ply ... I use roofing felt ... then pay the mudbed preslope.
on top of the preslope ... goes the membrane ...
then ... a top layer of mud ... simply for a tile setting bed.
The membrane is where the water stops and collects ...
and since it's "presloped" ... toward the drain weep holes ...
hopefully it doesn't just sit there.
presloping is a fairly new concept ... I've torn out lotsa old lead and copper flat pans.
usually an easy tear out too .... as they've held water over the years ...
and everything usually crumbles out.
How thick do U pour the mud over the fiberglass?
if U can plan to go about an 1 and a half ... might wanna look at the ProSlope product ... to lay under the fiberglass.
just expensive wedges of foam ... but install quick.
The one downside is they feel "spongy" to me ... so after the first one ... I now plan ahead for a thicker layer of mud on the top. An inch and a half and more seems ok.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
When I opened the oatey page, I got the closet flange. That is for toilets. They sell a shower drain designed for mud beds. It is a pretty standard fixture.
I don't know why that particular page gat pasted, my mistake.
http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/instance_assets/assets/How_to_Use/Shower%20Pan%20Liner.pdf
That's the one. Good Luck!
You need to get that plumber outta there and the tilesetter in to take control. I have never seen or heard of fiberglass the way it's done in your photo. There is no point to that. A proper tile pan will not need that FG and will be waterproof. If I showed an inspector here that type of pan he'd start crying. If your tilesetter does not know and use TCA methods then you should get a new one.
Once the tilesetter has set the drain fixture at the height he wants it, the plumber goes underneath and starts piping. Next time he goes in the shower is to install the valve trim.
Plumber says this is not a problem. Inspector say's fix it.
Well, there's most of your answer, to my thinking. Ask the plumber how much it's worth to him to "win over" the BI to his method, versus just building it to what will pass the AHJ in question.
Ok, so, maybe, across the state line, what was done was legal. Clearly, the guy you have to convice locally does not see it that way. Bi could be wrong--it's happened before and likely will again. The bigger question is how long can all of you afford to have this "fail" on file.
Sometimes, "fixing it" is simplest. May not be best, but can be simplest.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Fiberglass pans are the norm in the the North East, at least to my knowledge.
I'm about as northeast as you get, have worked for the last ten+ years in Boston, Nantucket, and coastal Maine--probably seen 30-50 shower installs--used to be flat copper pans was the norm, now it's pvc membrane--haven't seen a Kerdi system yet but it sounds like the way to go.
NEVER once seen a fiberglass pan. I don't see why it wouldn't work, just never seen or even heard of it. I'm a carpenter though and only do the occasional tile job, no showers yet. Want to try it on my own house first.
I don't think that would fly in my 'hood either.
I took one look at that and said what the ...................?
Must make the house smell real good though. Do it when the kids are home; turn them into huffers.[email protected]
You Inspector is right, your Plumber is wrong. Your Tile guy, if he is professional, should verify all of this.
Most tile guys have recommended shower pans companies.
Clues that indicate the shower pan is no good. A roofer is doing it - the corners are not square - the membrane does not slope to the weep holes - tar in the weep holes - the membrane stops at the top of the dam - using a deck drain.
Lousy shower pans result in leaking ceilings and smelly mildewed showers.
Latest update is that I will be installing a preslope fiberglass pan over plywood. The FG guy says that fiberglass over (preslope) mud is a bad idea. Any Moisture in the mud could cause the FG to cure improperly resulting in delamination. Bad news. He told me that he doesn't see it very often but for pans that he does only a small portion are sloped.
if it makes ya feel any better ...
my plumber fights with me each and every time.
says I'm the only guy he works with that demands a preslope ...
and he works for lotsa other guys ... midsized company ... works with both remodelers and home builders.
I always tell him " cause I'm special" ...
that annoys him enough to just go ahead and do it my way.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa