I’ve got a 1925 house and the bathroom walls — around the whole of the room — are a shiney plasticated ‘formica’ type paneling from about the 4′ level down to floor. Due to a small, slow leak around the faucet handles over the past few years the plaster behind this surface has started cracking and bulging and giving-way. I’ve gotten into it and taken it down to the lath and studs. I’m sorta amazed that they put ths formica sheet directly over plaster and that it lasted MANY many years — I’d say at least 50.
Now I’m tearing it out around the tub (and installing a fan and other things while I’m at it) and I’ve been searching for some surface treatment OTHER than tile to use for replacement material. Some ‘amateur builder types’ (like me) have said to go ahead and use a modern sheet-formica over hardiboard. But I’m wondering if there is any other sheet product that would be appropriate to the job. The “tileboard” that I see at the big box outlets is backed by some sort of what we used to call ‘tagboard’ and seems dicey unless the caulking is PERFECT. I would really like something simpler than a full tile job. Any suggestions? Would shiney formica over ‘plywood’ or hardiboard be ok?
thanks –
Terry
Replies
what's wrong with an off the shelf tub/shower surround?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
what's wrong with an off the shelf tub/shower surround?
All of the tub/shower surrounds are pre-formed to specific sizes. This bathroom was 'built by hand from scratch' 80 years ago. I need a substance that is flat and 'cuttable' so that I can fit it into the areas that I'm removing the old stuff from. It needs to be able to take hot and cold water flow against it... though no 'sitting' water. The 'bottom line question' is: is it really ok to use formica counter-top material for shower walls? Or is there something better -- besides tile -- that someone here could recommend?
Thanks -
formica?
I'd say no ... but stranger things have held up just fine. Not a standard application, so far as I know.
U say you are tearing out around the tub area. Most tub's are fairly common sizes. I'd be surprised if the new walls can't be built so an off the shelf surround can be used. And some of the surround designs are "flexible" as to their installed measurements ... made to be "old and crooked" friendly.
You can get corian sheet's made for this application ... trimable on site ... but I'm thinking the initial cost doesn't fit the formica budget.
Me ... I'd look for ways to make "standard" fit.
80 years ago wasn't so long ... don't get it in your head everything in the house has to be custom. I have a new(er) house for my area ... built 1902.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
I hear that your saying that a standard tub surround 'might' be found to fit or may be 'fittable'. But I'd rather go with something that has a little more character ... other than that standard shiny white plastic. The 'charm' of this old bathroom is that the walls are done in this swirly formica. I hear your saying that it isn't 'standard application' and I know you're right in that ... that's why I'm nervous to try it again. But it DID hold up for many many years so ... maybe it 'should' be standard!
thanks
for what it's worth ...
I have a "tub surround" in my own bath.
It's a very flexible "roll" ... imprinted with a 4x4 tile pattern ... grout lines and all.
Off white ... very realistic. Everyone thinks it's refinished tile ... with a sprayed on finish.
Came in a trimable roll ... my old house has nothing plumb/level square.
We measured and trimmed off from the bottom for a reasonable compromise.
The back wall was set into adhesive first ... and the side walls were simply rolled into place. Makes for rounded corners. Foam blocks were then cut to slip down at the top ... and a top piece was utility knife cut and caulked into place.
Bought it at ... of all places ... HD.
if that's not available ... I do know there are similar tile patterns on other tub surrounds out there.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Now if I was forced to do a PLam surround ...
I'd use the "flat" side of durock out. Mest and TSet my seams.
Get commercial grade lam glue. Nice toxic stuff ... not the friendly "no vapors" homeowner stuff ... then triple or so coat the backerboard. Double coat the laminate.
and hope for the best.
Not like a paint job is in order ... so full silicone caulking. Get the worst smelling stuff U can fine ... Geocell if possible, and caulk away. I'd also shoot for the smallest plumbing penetrations as posible. Drill the holes as tight as can be.
another thot ... maybe skip the backer and go with marine grade ply?
caulk it tight ... see what floats.
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I hadn't heard of that 'rollable' surround at HD. (Inevitably HD is where I end up .. close .. convenient). I'll definitely ask about that soon. Going the other way .. some good thoughts there .. thanks. That's funny that you wonder aloud about going with a marine-grade ply since that, quite honestly, was my first thought! I was a little embarrassed to say it cuz who uses plywood for backer. But it just seemed like it might be a good, structural bet. I mean .. the last time they used PLASTER!
btw -- when you say "PLam" you do mean the formica I'm eyeballing, right? PLam means 'plastic laminate'???
Also, when you say "Mest and TSet my seams" could you translate that? (I already admitted in my OP that I was a rank amateur).
And if it's caulked tightly, would the smell of those industrial strength glues be held back from my family's brain-cells?
Thanks again -
Terry
There is also cultured marble. You can get it in sheets, rough sized and you can trim it to fit.You will need to find a cultured marble fabricator. Look in the yellow pages under counter tops, kitchens, and baths.
"Mest and TSet my seams"
well ... "mest" seems to be some sorta secret code for "mesh" ...
and "TSet" is my short hand for "thinset".
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Google for "Solid surface showers." The walls can be made of SS material, but I think you'll have to get a standard receptor. Kinda pricey. About 2-3K for that kind of surround. The there's the door....
Sounds like "p-lam" is almost unheard of as a surround material. And I just don't understand why.
I've used it with great results. The trick is to have your supplier bend the 2 corners. They can do a pretty small radius (guessing maybe 3/4") and will supply you with a sorta decent roll of plastic edging. Just remember the largest sheets of p-lam are usually 5x12'. Your walls and corners better be square and paralel to each other, or it can be a problem. Also no soap dish, unless glued to the p-lam , which I have not tried.
Looks great and is unusal. The Wilsonart people have no problems with their stuff being used in this application. Total tub surround, only seam at tub/p-lam joint
I've seen some nice surrounds made out of laminate and have tried to obtain the kits but my local countertop supplier refuses to deal with the stuff because of past problems. I say its all in the installation and he agrees with me but still refuses. It would be nice to have the color options available at a more affordable price than corian or swanstone.
I haven't read all of the replies, but it all boils down to one important factor - sealing the edges! you can use formica...it does last 50 years as you've seen. And, provided you caulk all the edges you can use most anything else...Barkerboard (plastic faced masonite), even vinyl floor goods. When we were doing native housing in the NWT we used well-sealed OSB (!), after all it has an interesting surface. Also, those tub surrounds are only a packaged version of sheet plastic you could buy at a specialist plastics store - try there, they might have colours, and if not, acrylic paint sticks (i think - ask around).
Other points - have a good backing for whatever goes up...1/2" ply min... and get those little triangular diverters for the outside edges of the tub if you cannot guarantee keeping the spray inside the shower curtain.
ps yes HD is handy, but I've always gotten better prices at competitors. After all, when HD has swallowed everyone up - where can we find cheaper?
one day i whilst having a custom piece of flashing made at my metal fabricators shop, i checked out his material heap. among the sheet stock he had was ZINCALUME. we use it for flashing in seattle. it likes to be wet. this knowledge came in handy when i bought the house we now live in from my landlord (1930 bungalow rental for 20 years). someone used lavender ceramic tile over mastic, over sheetrock with framing where you please.
the fix was funky, it brightened the bathroom and works quite well: strip walls. insulate, then building paper, then durock up 36 from tub lip. green board above durock. seal the joints with water resistant thinset. then i had my fabricator do 3 pieces of zincalume. the first and second pieces were mirror images of each other: 48" tall and 40" wide, with one bend at 36". the 36" side goes, of course above the tub ends and laps the tub lip 3/4". the 4" return against the long wall above tub. the third piece was just a flat piece of zincalume 48" tall x however many inches to the corners wide. i installed with stainless truss head screws and neoprene washers, and all raw metal edges had 1/2" hems. i capped the metal with primed and painted 5/4 poplar; top edge sloped and drip dado on bottom (like a mini window sill). this scheme was above a tub. i plan to do the same with my shower stall, but this time i will lay up the zincalume in 12" shingle courses.
the tub scheme is 5 years old and has been flawless. soap scum wipes right off. and if i ever want to tile, i just unscrew the metal and have it made into flashing for another job.
Thanks everyone who responded ...
And I love the idea of the 'zincalume'! http://www.steelscape.com/products/zincalume_ct.html
In one of my 'what if there were no rules and no codes' moments the other day I had some thoughts on how to finish this thing. One was ... black rubber .. a bath/shower with black-sheet-rubber walls sounded kinda kicky. Then, I thought about copper sheets ... the kind you see from time to time that corrode to a green patena ... donno if you can get it in sheets .. but wait .. don't roofers buy it in sheets to create 'joints' or 'vallies' or something? Then I thought .. how about 'mirror' walls. The problem, of course, would be if they were ever hit hard they could crack or even break.
This is just two walls by the way. A water wall and a long wall along the tub with the soap-dish cut-out. The other two 'walls' are the shower curtain which bends around on an overhead laniard.
Anyway ... think I may end up going with the formica after all ... unless .. of course .. I have a few drinks one night and get in there with rolls of black sheet rubber!
Terry
when I built my shower, I use a green board with the plastic type sheets for the surround. Its a thick type plastic about a 1/8 thick. 4 x 8 sheets. after about a year i notice the wall was soft. so upon removing plastic. the greenboard was gone. Insulation was wet and black mold was everywhere. went back with hardi board,
Green board is NOT waterproof for you or anybody. At best it's water-resistant. Use Hardibacker, cement board, or exterior grade plywood. Bear in mind that fashions change and that anything snappy right now will look baaad in 10 years, so if you can make it easier for the next guy to rip out, that's a plus for him! But don't make it necesary for you to do so, eh.
Cheers
Terry,Back in the 80's in Denver I installed a couple of p-lam tub surrounds. They were one-piece affairs with post-formed corners. Two guys had a small business making and selling them. The lam went up with parquet floor mastic, because it (the laminate) moves with moisture, and that mastic is flexible long-term. It is a good system, attractive and durable. Have not seen one in 20 years.Bill
Edited 5/31/2005 10:54 pm ET by Bill
Shoot, go for it & tile the tub surround......why not....
look at Swanstone products;
http://www.theswancorp.com/products/tubWalls/ss605/index.php
There was a recent thread where we kicked around stainless sheets:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=57734.14
Hey Terry, not sure if you've already progressed to the finishing aspect of your reno, but I just finished an identical job for my inlaws and thought I may have a few suggestions to make your life a little easier. Their house is around 100 years old and they had a similar slow leak but unfortunately in the toilet flange, which led to a completely ruined sub-floor and not to mention it wicked up the walls as well. Anyway if you are down to the lathe you might as well take it down to the bare studs and make sure you either remove the nails or pound them in. I recomend using a concrete board opposed to gypsum as it is mold and moisture resistent. If you want to go with something other than drywall and don't want to go with ceramis tile than why not try barker board. It is quite durable and cuts easily with a hand saw or a battery powered skill saw. As far as caulking the seams just use masking tape on either side if your not comfortable doing it freestyle. The hardware store that carries the barker should also carry the right caulking that it color matched and made by barker. It is durable water resistand and cleans nicely. I do suggest either a J clamp or some sort of molding on the top to finish, it adds a nice detail. The sheets come in standard 4 by 8 sheets or 5 by 5. I simply used concrete board did a quick skim coat, penciled and did 3 coats of plaster 4 feet and up to the ceiling, sanded primed everything and the barker is basically ready for installation. (I suggest installing window and door trim before the barker) I hope all works out.
cheers
Geoff
Found this on 'barker board' >> http://www.barker.ca/barker/?section=barkertile&sub=highlights Unfortunately they don't sell it near me ... Seattle. But I'll look around ... sounds like something close to what I want .. a 'sheet' product that I can cut and form easily.
Thanks again to all for the input ... and for the link to the discussion on the same subject from early May .. that was great! I feel like I can go after this now.
thanks,
Terry
All the home centers have always carried stuff like Barker board, which is kind of a fake tile on 1/8" tempered Masonite. I've had it fail within two years in a shower stall. This was 17 years ago so I never used it again. Plus it looks cheesy from day one. I had a lot more luck with solid plastic sheets, but they tend to get yellow over time. Real Formica is a true 50 year material.I have 100 rental units so I'm always looking for something to replace ceramic tile. Here's a shot of a bath with 22 gauge stainless in my own house. Not easy or cheap. I use 27 gauge in the rentals, that costs around $2 per square foot.
Here's a shot of a bath with 22 gauge stainless in my own house. Not easy or cheap. I use 27 gauge in the rentals, that costs around $2 per square foot.
That is so beautiful. I've never seen that or heard of that before being sent to a thread here at FHB yesterday. My questions would be Where would I go for something like that here in Seattle .. just a 'metal fabricators? ... and ... How do you make the whole for the shower and faucet access? I love the 'utility' look of it and would definitely consider going that way.
thanks -
Terry
Thanks, Terry, what's beautiful to me about it is that it will last 100 years with no grout and minimal caulk. On the factory finish stuff, fingerprints show and scratches show.
There usually are fabricators in the Yellow Pages that specialize in stainless steel. However, these are not guys who are used to coming to your house and taking measurements. Just keep calling until you find one who will.
Failing that, you can make your own sketches of the panels you need, or make templates out of heavy paper or cardboard. Templates automatically correct any out of squareness in your walls. The holes are no prob. for them because they have Greenlee punches or a plasma cutter.
Here's a photo of wainscoting trimmed by handmade glass tile.
photo of custom black tile
"I can't say I was ever lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."
Here's a photo of wainscoting trimmed by handmade glass tile.
Wow. I'll be by this evening to take a shower!
Thanks for the ideas!
Terry