Side over Wet, Sun-Damaged Felt Paper?
I tore the siding off my waterfront house this summer, then installed new windows, new doors, and built two timber frame porticos. In the interim, the 15- and 30-lb builder’s felt I stapled up in July has become noticably sun-bleached. And now, the rains have started in Seattle. The felt paper sheds water in some places and appears to soak it up in others. The house is 15 feet from Puget Sound and exposed to extreme salt spray, sun, etc.
I want to install (back- and front-) stained cedar siding now.
Is there any problem installing siding over builders’ felt in this condition? (Not my condition, the tar paper’s condition — my condition is another story entirely.)
Should I wait until everything is dry? (If so, I should be able to nail up my siding by next August.) Should I trim the felt paper some distance above the drip caps (copper Z-Flashing) to avoid wicking?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Replies
30 minute paper is cheap enough to do it over the extg. Doubly sure, considering where you are. And the rain-screen will take out many other wrinkles.
Yep, in your location make sure to install a rain screen before the siding.
well, let's play it again then, sam.
One of my thoughts is this: what is the relationship between your window flanges and your felt?
i would say felt paper is more of a wood to wood contact barrier...than a barrier to keep water out {thats what your shingles do} so i would say patch the worst stuff and go with it ...if ya tear it off you will have staple galore to pound out ..good luck with the weather in seattle..i here ya down here in seaside...make sure your flanges are water tight to.
So you're the guy who relies on the siding to keep all the water out...I've worked behind you on lots of jobs...yer wrong.
A house should be watertight before the siding ever goes on. The siding is first line of defense, but water always gets through somewhere. The second line of defense is critically important to get right.
woodguy...youve worked behind the guy who dont know how to side.. a take cedar roof...skip sheet no tarpaper...and thats a roof...siding should never leak.. what about the staple that tore out '''will that soon leak and should i fix it? or the littlle tear,,where the slaptacker hit a wrinkel and tore the paper/when you hang felt staple the middle first then streech the top up ,then pull the bottom down tight...in the wind dont be shy with staples..
I ain't buying. Water gets behind all types of siding. All the industry experts say this.
A little tear or staple holes don't matter, but a big tear, say more than 6", I will back up with a scrap of felt.
Skip sheathed roofs can dry out from the back. Have you ever seen a wood roof against bare plywood sheathing? I haven't, but I can imagine the mess it would be. It's enough of a mess when the roof is papered or bituethened.
Walls are also full of penetrations which redirect the path water will take. Roofs are usually pretty straightforward. I've never seen a really cut up skip sheathed roof, but I imagine the detailing would be a nightmare. Any cut up wood roofs I've worked on have had full ice and water coverage, cedar breather, and lots of copper to make sure rain, wind, and ice don't cause damage.
You may have put some on, but it sounds like you have never torn any off. That or you are in denial about all the water signs you saw when doing the demo work.There is no siding that keeps 100% of the water out, and with this house being directly on the shore, 90% would be doing good on a windy day.
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90% water stays out? 10% gets in.
so if it rains 100 gallons on 5 square sidewall 10 gallons get behind the siding?not tring to be a s#it head but that seems crazy..most of the leaks or water damage i have seen has been due to improper flashing, cornerboards....cold seeks heat ,so any spot that lets air in will end up getting water in if that air gets slightly heated> is that truethanks for the imput
peace
So I exaggerate, but I'm more accurate than yopur statement that none gets in.
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if some gets in Alot gets in ....water follows water...
water creates a path for water inwhick more water can come through and more and more
then it dries and rots...does the water go through the siding or around?
Where does it goe?the whole point here was that is why it is so important to have the tarpaper done right before siding. To keep it from going nto the walls!I use rainsreen methods to keep a drainage plane open. Older walls without drain planes the moisture would soak into the back side of the siding and make paint blister off expeccially if the claps were not backprimed. But better to have tropubles with paoint or siding thanto have the whole wall rotting where yuou can't see it because somebody assumed his siding job could never let water in and shorted the barriewr behind it.
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Why not just add a layer of 15# as you install the siding? You're there, it's inexpensive and easy... insurance.
Troy Sprout
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Oscar Wilde
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not a builder so I appreciate you sharing your expertise.
Re importance of *something* under the siding, my Dad built the house 40 years ago on a shoestring -- using surplus materials from his jobsites, mostly. He ran out of felt paper on the east (water) side of the house. When I took the (very high quality, but weatherbeaten) 3/4" dadoed bevel siding off, I saw evidence of quite a bit of water damage, including smack dab in the middle of the wall with no penetrations nearby.
After I did my work, the windows, which had been wet for at least the past 15 years, are now dry again. This winter season will be the test, but even sun-damaged tar paper alone seems to be better than siding alone for keeping the wall dry.
I think someone asked about the penetrations: I used blue-back adhesive film around all openings, applied with proper laps per the instructions. For the new windows, I again applied the blue-back film over the nailing flanges. I stapled tar paper over the outer edge of the synthetic film, and then nailed the trim over the assemblage. I cut away the blue-back film to 1/2 inch from the inner edge of the trim to provide a caulking surface and made sure the remaining inner edge of the blue-back film was sealed tight. My window and door trim is 5/4 cedar, which I fully caulked before and after nailing (my wife says one can never have too much caulk). I dadoed the bottom edge of all horizontal trim so the siding below will underlap by 3/4". I did not caulk these edges because I want to provide a weep path.
One reason not to simply put more 15# felt over the top is alluded to in your messages -- wrinkles. But please tell me, can I rely on ring shank nails through 1/2 inch cedar siding (4-1/2 inch exposure) to flatten all the wrinkles? The faded stuff that is up now is quite wrinkled and with the high winds last week I had to do lots of stapling on the weekend. And my neighbor gave me some 30# left over from his roof so (true to family tradition) I used that on part of the house. Its wrinkles seem especially stiff so I'm also concerned about nailing over that, although there's no detectable sun damage at all.
I'm not too worried about the staples because unlike spun polyolefin, felt paper is "self-healing" and will seal around them. I'm more concerned about the patency of the weatherworn sheet as a whole.
Regarding the (shoot, I can't refer back to your messages easily -- I hope I can remember them) "rain shield" -- is that what you called it? I've read about something in FHB that sounds sort of like a giant scrubbing pad. Is that what you are talking about, or are you referring generically to things like housewrap and tar paper? If the former, I've got a couple questions -- how does it affect the impact strength of the siding? If something gets tossed against the side of the house, it seems like siding flat on 3/4 inch shiplap would be stronger than siding over anything that might compress. Secondly, how thick is it and will it interfere with my ability to underlap my window trim with siding? I was under the impression that Penofin-stained siding will breath fine on its own so I shouldn't have to worry about providing a dedicated drainage path.
I hope I responded to everyone who took the time to respond to me. If not...I'll be back.
P.S. I think your point about new 15# felt being cheap insurance is a good point. I'll plan on doing that. Hopefully one of you will help me understand how concerned I should be about wrinkles -- if not at all, I'll install the new felt over the old. If I need to be concerned, I'll tear off the old as I go. I'd probably cut it away an inch or two from wall penetrations and then staple on the new overlapping the old. I'll put beds of caulk on the old between the new felt and the trim, and let it squish between the layers of felt and up the trim to make a nice, tight seam as I nail on the siding.
Should I keep the felt and the bottom of the siding away from the flashing to make sure no wicking happens?
Edited 11/13/2006 5:47 pm ET by Powpowhound