I have what should be a “simple” plumbing problem, especially for the plumbing contractor I hired to finish plumb my power room. At this point I’ve got to wonder about their competence or integrity. I’ve hired them for several other jobs without problem, so before I throw in the towel on them…I would appreciate any thoughts about the following:
Their job – install my materials – cultured marble top and faucet / drain, with new P trap drain assembly.
Results so far – first a couple missed appointments. Next, the initial installation…after allowing 24 hours drying time, I use the sink and notice leaking from drain / trap area. Since they are the professionals, and I’ve got enough to keep me busy, I leave the diagnosis to them.
Next visit – their diagnosis is that the “plastic ring” in “my” drain assembly is defective…contractor replaces my drain assembly with “their” drain assembly, and replaces P trap. Since it’s “my” drain, that means all time & materials = my bill. Once again, I detect a leak. See comments above about diagnosis.
Next visit – all connections are tightened and siliconed everywhere possible. Since it is their drain assembly, this is a warranty visit…also, no charge to my wife and kids for profanity ridden performance by plumber during this visit (said plumber then calls me at work to let me know I should call him directly with any future problems). Sink seemed to be ok for a week or so, but after filling the sink with a lot of soap and suds…you guessed it , still leaking.
Ignoring advice from plumber, I call the shop & suggest maybe another set of eyes might on the problem might help…their response – “they’ve done everything” and it must be my sink. They’ll come out on warranty one more time if it’s “their” drain, but if it’s “my sink” they would like to save me the $ and them the hassle, so I should diagnosis the source of the leak.
Any thoughts on their position? The sink seems fine to me, and I find it hard to believe that is the source of the leak (I also find it hard to believe “my” drain had anything to do with the problem). Could it be the length or design of the P-trap?
Ideas, thoughts, or opinions would be greatly appreciated! If I were reading this I would obviously be thinking another contractor makes sense, but like I said, I’ve previously used them quite a bit with good luck.
Replies
Shouldn't be a need for silicone in a drain assembly. Sounds like hacks. I would call the owner and complain about the language, and tell him (the owner) about the plumber asking you to call him directly. Sounds like he doesn't wantr the office to know he's on warranty calls.
Dry it off well, and run water until you see the leak, then very carefully and meticulously find the leak. Feel for dampness up high that might be running down the back of the pipes ... maybe it's the faucets or the spout.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Time to look at things myself, I guess!
Some sinks have a larger hole in the bottom of the sink than others. The rubber gasket supplied with the lav faucet to seal the pop up assembly to the sink is often too small. We carry larger washer for this reason but some still drip and need a coat of silicone. A coat, not gunked up. Hope this helps. DanT
Would you consider a "coat" to be approximately the size of good sized doughnut?
good sized doughnut
Uh, no! A 'coat' is like a heavy coat of paint, or a wrap of duct tape. Just enough to fill a crack.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
No, a coat is a thin layer spread by your finger. Donut are a hack thing. DanT
I am a GC. Plumbing fixtures stink!
My agreement with clients is that if they buy the fixtures , they are responsible for all the problems they will have. If they buy them through me, the mark up is 50%.
Even at 50% it isn't worth it- something is always wrong, a casting a washer, a missing part, and try to find a supplier who wants to help for parts is impossible.
If the owner supplies, then I end up in the same argument(other side) as you.
If you hire another plumber, they will probably finger point, charge exorbitantly , and tell you to back charge.
I think the best bet is to do away with indoor plumbing.
Maybe easier to be an armchair quarterback. But I've done a handful of kitchen and bathroom drains myself, and knock on wood, never a problem. A real professional should be able to get this problem after 3 tries.
An armchair quarterback would rather get on the internet rather than get on his own Fn knees to figure out where his leak is.
rather get on the internet
Having a bad day Zog? If I remember correctly, the purpose of this forum is to let people share their experiences and ideas. Since we can't see the fixture, we can give ideas as to how to find the problem. Then he will have a better idea as to where to look.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
The point of my first post was that it could be a problem with what he supplied, and he was awfully quick to blame the installer.
I am a GC, also a Plumber. I have put a Kohler kitchen sink with a hairline crack around the strainer ,& American Standard toilets with casting defects all over, & uncountable foriegn fixtures that were missing a part that nobody could figure out how to get.
It is very easy to spend many unpaid hours solving problems caused by manufacurers defects.
See ya soon - I'm going to pee - outside.
I like your idea better. After I get back from outside I'm turning it into a closet.
Also, when you call the owner, ask them if they would like to do the repair or if you should call their competitor. If the competitor finds that there was nothing wrong with your materials and that it was all their plumber's workmanship, don't pay them. But, if you are going to go that route. Make sure that you are being fair. Give them opportunity to fix the problem in a timely manner, and keep good records, because you'll need them when the guy sues for payment.
If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Plumbing is simple, if you don't want to get on your knees and look at the explanation, then you'll pay (or had paid).
Let'd divide it in two The Tailpiece and trap Assembly
They changed your p-trap because they cut it too short amd it would not line up straight with the tail piece. With the trap short, the tailpiece is not vertical and will leak (from the gasket at the bottom of the sink). Get a mirror and see if the leak is from the big nut just under the sink, that's just above the stopper lever.
You said you had good luck with this company before, Let me give you some bad signs-They have a whole page in the phonebook, each time was a different Plumber, the guy in you house or at the shop is not the owner, they have a fleet of trucks, they only do repairs not new construction, they will finance your repairs and they charge Journeyman prices even they have no trade school education.
Shock us and tell us how much you paid.
I think you're right on most counts!
My feeling all along has been in the alignment of the trap assembly.
They've got the fleet, big ad, & only do repairs, but there is definitely worse in the So. NH area. They've had plenty of opportunity to screw me over at least 15 different jobs in recent years, and up until now never a problem. Based on this experience and a new dispatcher, I can only wonder if they've sold recently.
Now, how much I paid & what they are charging are 2 different things (I am on account with them, so nothing paid yet):
The 1st bill (also includes shutoff replacement for toilet & sinks, new flex hoses, and other basic parts) = $350 + / -.
The 2nd bill for the new drain, labor, parts = $140.
This is a long shot, but one thing my plumber does is put teflon tape around the drain assembly where the nut on the bottom snugs up. I've seen small leaks there - I'd hazard that it has something to do with threads having a slope to them and the nut not hitting the bottom of the sink flush.But the crack from over tightnening would be my first guess too.Filling the sink with stopper down, looking for a leak, then letting all the water flow down the drain while watching is one way to check for leaks. YOu might also let some water run into the overflow (before you pull the stopper) to see if that is part of the problem.Good luck!
Thanks, gave that a quick try last night...Work shedule doesn't give me much time during the week for anything but working and sleeping (and the occasional web visit). Initially it looks to me like it might not be the bowl, but like I mentionned in another response, it could be coming from tail piece / plastic fitting area. Hope it's not a cracked bowl...
What we're talking about isn't rocket science and I'm not a plumber, but I work along side plumbers to do all sorts of crazy things for our clients so I'm very familiar with the situation.
Sometimes sinks aren't perfect, especially those from noname suppliers, and it can take a few tries to get things to not leak. A sharp plumber will notice right away that things are loosey goosey and might be a problem. If your sink is a bit loose and the plumber is trying his damndest to get your sink to seal with your drain (I'm guessing that your drain is not the highest quality and thus probably is not as forgiving as a good quality one) and that doesn't work, doesn't it make sense to use a more forgiving/better fitting drain? That doesn't mean he's a crappy plumber, it means he first tried to do what you asked, to use your parts, and that didn't work.
My guess is that even with his drain he knew that a seal wasn't guaranteed, but he had another more reliable fix in mind that might require a part he didn't have in the truck. That's why he wanted you to call him, since he already knows what's going on. By not calling him you've turned what could have been a simple fix into the nit picking from the office that you've described and it made the plumber look bad who was probably trying to do you a favor.
Our plumber probably would have looked at the situation and asked you to return your sink for one that will seal correctly and he'll supply the parts needed for installation--or you could find another plumber. You'd be mad at his not wanting to make your problems his problems, but look at how much trouble it would have saved him--and you.
I'd bet he over tightened the drain, and cracked the bowl. Then tried to cover up his mistake with a phat bead of silicone. Of course, if you ask him, it was your drain that wouldn't seal properly that caused him to over tighten it.
Casting problems are not uncommon with cultured marble, but usually the drains will seal with a small amount of putty, or silicone.
I hope not. I won't be able to take a good look at things until tomorrow, but so far I don't it's cracked. It's hard to tell, but I still think it could be coming from where the metal tail piece connects into the p trap pressure fitting...it's a short tail piece, a small elbow, and I think things aren't lined up perfectly straight.
OHboy hhhhmmm where do I start with this one? Ok any plumber worth a crud does not warranty owner supplied parts but he better warranty his workmanship silicone is something you put fixtures where they meet other surfaces never on plumbing parts. Good plumbers should know all the parts needed for a system to work properly & should be able to spot bad or missing parts. Teflon tape & pipe "dope" are not sealant they are lubricants to keep parts from binding during assembly. For language definitely call his boss my mouth is terrible but not in front of customers or public. One last thing you do have the law on your side & the check book.
Plumbing, not my favorite, but just installed cultured marble countertop today, double sinks, including drains, faucets, supply, double everything. No leaks, on the first try (I know, I know, it will surely leak tonight, for sure. and stop calling me Shirley)
#1: there should be no need for silicone, teflon tape, pipe dope, plumbers putty, or any other stuff on PVC threads. The threads do not seal-the plastic washer does. Any gunk applied is a band-aid that will not last, or the gunk itself will cause the leak.
#2: Anyone using #1 above doesn't know what they're doing. Do not let them back in you house.
#3: Duct tape belongs in that category, too. And Epoxy. And anything else.
#4: Same goes with the threads on chrome drain pipes. The rubbe gasket seals, not the threads.
#5: Teflon tape or pipe dope WILL be needed on the tailpiece threads, since those DO seal with the drain assy.
The key is to have the proper fittings and transitions, and get everything lined up. An misalignment is bound to leak, and usually cannot be fixed by tightening up.
Another test for leaks: clean everything up and dry it off under the sink.
Put paper towels under there, or craft paper. Either will show any drips and make them obvious.
Fill up both sinks, then open both drains at the same time. This will make any drips come out that would not normally come out with just the water running. Use a flashlight, a small mirror, and your fingers to check for drips. Note where they are, and fix them.
One time I did install a faucet 4 times (client supplied) and could not figure where the drip kept coming from. Drove me nuts. Until I saw that the faucet had a hairline crack in it where water was barely dribbling out. Glad I found the problem, but still had a lot of frustration and wasted time.Pete Duffy, Handyman
Thanks Pete. As mentioned in other responses, looks like it might be the alignment, but don't know yet.