okay, so im doing a small roof on a garauge and i just finished the roof. There is flashing under all of the edges. Homowner wants edge flashing OVER the roofing too. He says it keeps the shingles from being torn off by the wind and points out alot of others in the neighborhhod which are done with edge flashing over shingles.
I’m almost offended at the idea, it seems to me that it not only doesent need it, it’s also pounding nail holes through the roofing, and even if i caulk the nail heads(obviously a weakpoint, part of the roof relying on caulk<yikes>) i still wouldnt be able to get caulk under the flashing but the water would have no problem getting there… plus it looks ugly.
And just because other people do things incorrectly doesent make me want to botch the job too.
Am i missing somthing? if im not, will you guys help a young guy like me explain to this H.O. Every time i try, his brain turns off. I think he just thinks im young and want to look smart, but I couldnt possibly know anything that he diddnt allready know. I need some quantifyable facts, maybe a code reference or somthing
yikes.. sorry about the long post
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Edited 3/17/2005 2:14 pm ET by skyecore
Replies
Counterflashing over the step I could understand if the situation dictated it. But no way nail it off to the roof. Show him a shingle wrapper if they still print the recommended install on it. That should keep him busy for a while.
Whoa, I just reread your post. Freestanding garage and he wants you to nail down metal on top up the rake and along the eave?
I've seen upside down drip installed, but do I have this right?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
umm.. im forgive my bad vernacular: On a simple gable roof, there are two types of roof edges, the ones that are angled(a 5/12 in this case) which dont have gutters, and the ones that are parralel to earth which do (or should anyway) have gutters.He wants edge flashing over the shingles on the angled edges of the roof, he thinks that shingles will blow off if i dont put it on______________________________________________
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I've never heard of it or seen it done.
My Wife said if she ever caught me downloading dirty picture off the internet, she'd wash my mouse out with soap.
never heard of it or seen it done
New to me, too. I'm trying to imagine a shape that would not lead water the "wrong way" under the flashing (even if it's sloping "downhill"). Water damage that takes much longer to notice and rots the rake eaves will be much more expensive than even a whole bundle of blown off shingles.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
my thoughts egzactly.. I would rather come out there to repair a few blown off shingles (which im pretty sure i wont havto do anyway) then stamp my name on somthing that probably will hold up fine, but might be letting water in.. Even if it lasts for 15 years and thats the first thing that fails, i still dont want to stamp my name on it Thanks for the input______________________________________________
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however, i should point out that walking around any neighborhood in Portland OR (me home city) you see probably 30% of roofs with the edge flashing over top of the shingles.. I was just talking to my inspector and he told me that they dont inspect roofs anymore.. maybe that has somthing to do with it(?)______________________________________________
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Skye, in high-wind areas it's a good idea to run Ice and Water shield along the rake, half on the roof and half on the wall, under all the trim and flashing. Then the trim goes on, then the drip edge, tar paper, and shingles. If it's cold or there's a wind concern you can add dollops of tar to the outermost shingles, to make sure they adhere to each other. Flashing on top of the shingles? Bad, bad, ugly, yuck.
Mike
but might be letting water in
Yeah, even a perverse form of drip edge meets step flashing still doesn't make a reliable, to-daylight, path for water.
Makes me wonder about the other "examples" and if it's a misinterpetation of the function of what is visible.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Makes me wonder about the other "examples" and if it's a misinterpetation of the function of what is visible."--capnmacI'll bring my cam and shoot a couple pics today..______________________________________________
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I understand now.........
that is, I understand you, but not the application the homowner wishes.
I know a roofer who uses a bead of roof cement on every shingle running up the rake for just the purpose you mention, keeping them down and not lifting in the wind. This is in the flatlands of NW Oh. where 25 mph and a bit up constant blow is not uncommon comming off the farm fields. Maybe you could get him to go for that instead of a metal over.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The detail I use to help keep the shingles attached at the rakes is to run a starter strip up the rake. The glue strip seals to each shingle and also adds a slight lift in elevation to keep the water on the roof instead of letting it run over the edge (in theory, anyway). There is never a good reason to expose fasteners in a hidden fastener system (such as asphalt shingles ).
You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.
There is some great advice here. I particularly like the starter strip idea from greencu.
But you have a customer that has instructed you to do a specific detail. Furthermore, he has pointed out to you that there are other houses nearby with this detail. You might consider just doing it and collecting your check.
Here's another idea. Find another neighborhood for your next job.
Edited 3/17/2005 4:35 pm ET by Gene Davis
hey,tell this guy if he wanted a hack carpenter to do the job theirs alot of guys out their with hammers in thier back pockets that would be glad to do what ever the h.o suggests,including ignoring local building codes.the codes arent there to just refer to as considerations.tell this guy the different options he has if hes worried about the shinlgels flying off the next day or have him sign something that states that your not responsable for any damage due to the methods he wanted,that might wake him up and relize that you as a professional know what your talking about.
Do as homeowner wishes, but no guarantee. Make new contract if you have to. If he has a problem with that, he will bend and leave it.
get paid.
-zen
don't do as the homeowner wishes..
tell him it's againt the roofer's bible..
it's a sin against common sense..
and it will void the manufacturer's warranty
i've been roofing for 30 plus years.. and i've never seen or heard of such a dumb thing.. and i've seen a lot of dumb thingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and another thing...
if he gives you the olde ... " lot's of other roofs in the neighborhood have it"..
give it right back to him... just like your mother used to say..
" if everyone else in the neighborhood was jumping off the bridge, would you?"
don't drink the kool-aidMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
haha! the "if everyone in the neighborhood jumped off a b--" thats really funny mike, i was thinking that the whole time, i wanted to say it but i just would have come off like such a jerk so i kept my mouth shut.. funny to hear you thinking it as well______________________________________________
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Initially I agree with Mike Smith. Don't do something that you, I, and the entire construction/roofing industry knows is wrong, and counterintuitive, just because the homeowner wants it done that way and refuses to listen to logic.
However, if he will not listen to your protestations and still insists that you do it "wrong" then I agree with Manimal and Zendo. Do the job, but give him no warranty, or have him sign something to the effect of :
"I , the homeowner, understand that the particular detail I am insisting upon has been explained to me to be incorrect with regards to proper construction practices, and I agree to apply no blame whatsoever to the roofing contractor in the event of any damage as a direct result of said application."
Good luck buddy, Don't worry, they're not all gonna be this obtuse.
okay.. thanks all for the advice, i just wanted to make absoulutely sure before i told him "fine, but you own the warantee now"..I think i'll make him back down with that.______________________________________________
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I do just what greencu and mike maines recommended.
Run a starter strip up the rake, you can either use ripped shingles or roll roofing. I like it for the same reason greencu gave...it gives a slight bump near the rake and keeps water on the roof instead of having it run off the rake edge of the roof.
I also use a smear of roofing cement on the rake shingles.
Look at the shinges you use, see if there is an alternate or high-wind nailing pattern. Are you actually in a high-wind area? If so, look at a heavier-duty shingle like Mike Smith recommended.
I'd rather take a walk then do a detail like this guy is asking for. You know what he's asking for is wrong.
Be right.
The best way is a spot of roofing cement under the lower half of the tab.
The strip up the rake only holds down the nailed portion of the shingle.The lower portion is still free to be affected by the wind.With slate in some windy locales we clip the outermost corner on a 45-to remove the lowest 2" to keep the wind from grabbing it.It looks great and is functional too.You could do that with shingles except that the base material would have cement show.
I could see a flashing detail where the flashing is kind of like J-channel. You nail it down, then slide the edge of the shingle into the channel. Could be bent so that it still rolls down over the fascia. Something like this:
what purpose does it serve ?
none..
if the wind is ripping shingles off the rake, it's ripping some out of the body too..
this is just a case of the idiots following the idiots
they're asphalt shingles , fer cryin out loud
if they're concerned about wind.. get some that are rated for 110 mph... like the Hatteras..
this flashing on top of the rake shingles is so stupid it's criminalMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Maybe the neighborhood is packed with 16-wide garages with 15-wide doors, and this roof treatment is a design statement.
I have seen the drip edge type Dan is conjecturing about many times on older roofs here in VT, sort of a galvanized J-channel. I was always under the impression that it was a wind damage preventative. It's not used any longer to my knowledge.
I always have had the sneaking suspicion that it would actually retain moisture at the rake edge and hasten deterioration of the roof deck. Also, it does serve to cover up a hack job on the end cuts (an all- too -often occurence).
Personally, I have used the starter strip (bleeder) up the rake, and the roof cement technique as well. But then again, wind is not usually a major problem hereabouts, in our little valleys and hills of interior New England.
Sounds like this standoff was resolved nicely, anyway. Another lesson under the belt. It's all good.
The wrapper on the roofing gives the detail for a warranted roof by the manufacturer. Any deviation from the instructions voids all and any warranty.
You as a professional would never install a non-warranted roof. Explain this to the homeowner and leave it at that. Who knows how this could come back and bite you at a later date.
thanks everyone for weighing in.. I pretty much said: "Look, I understand that thats what you want, but Im not doing it unless you take full responsability of the roof therafter.. If you want me to write up a contract Im happy to do so but as a professional i can tell you confidently that any benefit of this detail would be marginal and whenever the roof fails, those nail holes will probably be the first entry for water and rott.______________________________________________
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oh forgot to mention: he backed down and all is good.. he's a good costomer, probably wouldnt have escalated at all if we diddnt know eachother too well. Thanks for the tips everyone, being a young guy its awsome to have you all weigh in. (especially when you all agree with me) And teach me a thing or two in the process.______________________________________________
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skye-
Any chance of getting the pics for the sake of discussion?
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Drinking Rum
i hate ms-paint! took me like 1/2 an hour to draw that dumbass drawing.. okay so the black stuff is currently there, the red edge flashing is what I finally talked H.O. out of.______________________________________________
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Very good that you talked him out of it... and don't sweat being young.
You had enough smarts to get input from someone who might know more than you... and that is the first step to becoming a true professional... asking for help and advice when needed.
thanks Rich.______________________________________________
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That's what I thought but it seemed so strange.
Thought maybe you had a photo of one in the neighborhood is why I asked. Thanks.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Drink Rum
yeah 'was gonna shoot a pic of another roof but forgot to charge my battery that day______________________________________________
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Just reading all this about shingle. 'Up' here in Canada ( 20 miles north of the Boarder of North Dakota ) I have shingled many houses after a storm in '94. Puit on some 4000 bundles, many in the fall / winter. steep & 3/12 (using lo slope metnod). I have only replaced doz. or so shingles on warranty for wind ! Got to wath power nails in very cold weather ( below 0 C)I run a full shingle lenghwise up the rake (as well as tje starter flashing) tab down up the rake as well as at the eve.(Stater flashing, 15 lb. felt or ice / water sheild, full shingle upside down, stater course tabbed, then go.) have had very good success, and will recomend over tin in res. applications.There are arm chair experts every were!
IF IT WHERE EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!
ok while were on the subject, let me ask another question.. I allways had heard that water will wick 1/4" horizontally, I've allways laid the shingles about 3/8" or so over the edge of the flashing..Is that correct? obviosly more is wind vulnerable, less is water vulnerable.. what is the preferred overhang?______________________________________________
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I don't knolw of any ROT that will control that 1/4"
On a steeper roof it will run down faster than wick over. A wind driven will run further. Different materials will guide surface tension differently. So overall, the I&W backup is the best deal
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ha! i need to take a lingo class, i kinna feel like im listening to rap music or somthing, sorry to be a pain Piffin, but what is the 'I&W backup'?______________________________________________
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ROT + rule of thumbI&W = Ice and water shield AKA bituthene
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
AKA = also known as
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
AIS.. = Ahh, I see.______________________________________________
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Actually, if the guy is worried about blow off the real answer is interlocking tab shingles. They're SOP in Fargo, ND, supposedly the windiest place in the continental US.
roofing is allready down but i'll keep keep that in mind for next time.I think the regular old 3-tab is going to be just fine here but in the future I'll mention interlocking shingles to folks that are worried about windBy the wat, what is "SOP"?______________________________________________
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SOP usually means Standard Operating Procedure.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ut oh...Not..Some Other Putz..?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
And here I thought it was "Stupid Obstinate... err...... errrr..... 'nother word for kitty?"
LOL
You CAN use "Z's" ya know...Puzzy quats are common around here.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Sell your cleverness, Purchase Bewilderment"...Rumi
SOP.. thanks..______________________________________________
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Hello skycore
I have seen many roofs with the metal on the top of the shingles here in California. I always thought it was wrong. It was not how i was taught and it doesn't make any sense. I think that hackers do it that way to cover up their bad cuts on the edge of the roof! Tell the home owner that. I agree with the guys that say not to do it wrong. I don't know if you can have the HO sign away your warranty as a contractor..at least in CA. Good luck!
If the new roof you installed is a laminated shingle here is a trick I like to use. Take a flat bar and lift the top lamination up on the exposed part of the shingle put a nail under that lamination and put a small bit of caulk under it to seal it back down. This also works on top courses of shigles whre a roof meets a wall, chimney, or anywhere you cut off the top portion of the shingle.
Tell him to put concrete blocks on the gable ends, flue blocks would be best.
mike
that's geneus!______________________________________________
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