Homebuyer wants a tile backsplash in the kitchen that is just one course of tile with bullnose tile on top. I had MR (moisture resistant) drywall installed and it has been painted. Normally I hire out any tile work, but in this case, since it is so little, I think I’ll do it myself. The tile is regular shiny 4 1/4″ square ceramic tile. I intend to use un-sanded grout.
So, my first question is should I stick the tile to the wall with (modified?) thinset or some kind of mastic? If mastic, what kind? What notch trowel? 1/4″?
Second Q: I know I need to caulk rather than grout the interface between the tile and the laminate counter top but should the top edge of the bullnose be caulked too or is the grout sufficient? In other words will the grout crack there at the bullnose to drywall interface? I think just grout is OK.
What kind of caulk is best? It will be white since the grout will be white. I want something that will not mold or discolor. I don’t consider this a wet location – maybe slightly damp (:-)) since I assume the counter tops will be cleaned periodically.
Replies
Matt, here's something I do with splashes. I lay down a spacer, in this case maybe 1/8'' (strip of masonite) on top of the counter, then set the tile on top. The finish will be the same grout line as between tiles. IF for whatever reason that top needs to come out it'll be possible w/o screwing the splash. After setting/before grouting I remove that spacer and caulk the gap. Most grout cracking is at that joint-top/splash. Then I go about grouting as usual. Seems to bond better and minor movement doesn't leave the unsightly crack.
I'd use mastic-easier to clean while setting and esp so with that partial splash. I'd just back butter each tile with a notched knife and apply to wall. Trying to trowel to wall unless the trowel is a 3rd hand like a regular tile setters is a waste of effort. Size-according to mastic bucket.
Happy Thanksgiving.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 11/27/2008 9:10 am ET by calvin
I would use modified thinset, but that is what I always use. If the paint job was good, you should be ok, but if you want to make sure, cut out the drywall and put in hardi. Leave the drywall 1/2" lower than the top of the bull nose.
As far as grout, I use Laticrete Spectralock. It is virtually bulletproof once cured, and maintains it color with no staining. I would caulk the joint with matched caulk-Try to get caulk made by the grout manufacturer as opposed to a third party. The colors tend to match better IMHO.
Good luck
Bruce
Pretty much ditto what calvin wrote.
I'm a thinset guy, but for one course of tile for a backsplash, and with the tile backer that you already have, mastic will be perfect.
Same technique with using a strip to act as a spacer between the tile and the countertop.
You can buy caulk that is color and texture matched to your grout.
And you probably already know this, but since you're planning on using unsanded grout you'll want the grout lines to be less than 1/8".
Grout will be okay a the top of the bullnose.
Mongo
Happy Thanksgiving big boy.
Anxiously awaiting your e-or reg. mail Christmas Card.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yaz, brother-man.I need to set aside a few hours this week and cull the photo collection for this years' card.Best to the family,
Mongo
The beauty and surprise of Christmas is just around the corner.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
'tis better to be fashionable late than to never be fashionable at all!
The beauty of it is that in spite of all our problems and back orders, Dec 24th is still Christmas Eve. I love that nite.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thanks guys.
The tile is at work so I don't have it here but I thought ceramic wall tile was self spacing... I'm pretty sure this is... Isn't that spacing adequate or do I need to get some of those little plastic spacers? I'm trying to think of what to use as the bottom spacer.... I can come up with something. I'm thinking an eight inch at the max.
I'm gonna look for that Laticrete Spectralock grout. Wonder if they have it at Blowes...
Cal: I know what you mean about being able to get a counter top out later. Went through that at my own house when we got quartz installed. The guy said - "don't worry if you need to replace the tile back splash after we get done with the tear-out and install you can do that later. We can't be responsible for the tile though." NO THANKS!!! I did the tear out carefully myself and there was no damage to the tile. It's a somewhat complicated pattern with 3 or 4 different size/shape/color of tile.
If the tiles are nubbed on the edge, you'll end up w/about an eighth inch grout joint when finished. The bottom spacer can be anything including a pc of cardboard so the tile doesn't slide down. You need something down there as you'll only have 1/2 the nub distance if you want to see the same size joint down there. And eighth rip with give you a healthy 3/16ths grout or caulk joint on the bottom.
Enjoy.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Again, pretty much ditto what calvin wrote.
"The tile is at work so I don't have it here but I thought ceramic wall tile was self spacing... I'm pretty sure this is... Isn't that spacing adequate or do I need to get some of those little plastic spacers?"
Yours may be self-spacing, and if so then you could use the nubs to gap the countertop and the tile, but if you don't want positive contact between the counter top and the tile, then use a spacer of some sort, then caulk the resulting gap.
I prefer to not have contact between the tile on a back splash and the counter top material.
Mongo
For spacing go to your local drywall supplier they carry fibreboard strips that the drywall guys use to shim a stud wall before putting up the drywall. They come in packages of 20 or 25 and are 36" long 1 1/2" wide and just about a 1/16" thick.
Just place one of the shims on the countertop and set the tile to it and the joint will be almost the same as the grout joint between the tiles.
You might think that a pack is to many but you will find all kinds of uses for the shims
Bing
Strips of scrap Formica would make a good spacer for the bottoms. It is flat, and won't compress.
Pretty much ditto what the others said --
-- Mastic is fine. Use a small notched trowel.
-- If the tile doesn't have spacers molded in you need to use spacers, plus a half spacer at the bottom even with spacers molded in.
-- Depending on its profile, the top of the bullnose may need no grout or caulk at all. If it needs something I'd be inclined to use caulk, though unsanded grout would probably work.
-- The amount of moisture that hits a typical residential backsplash is minimal, so mold resistance (for the caulk) isn't a big issue. I'd be concerned if this were a commercial kitchen or some such.
-- Do you have any outlets to cut around, or other major cutting to do? If so you'll probably want a tile saw, though they're generally cheaper to buy than to rent. For one or two cuts (on cheap tile with enough spares) you can make do with an angle grinder or just one of the carbide hacksaw blades.
I'm going to disagree with 'most everybody so far.
First: Mastic is not ideal for wet areas. Kitchen backsplashes take a lot of water; the mastic might--or might not--stand up to that abuse. I would recommend you use modified thinset. It's not that much trouble and the difference in cost for such a small job will be negligable.
Second: Greenboard as a substrate isn't rated for wet areas; only for 'damp' areas (laundry rooms; the non-tub/shower walls in bathrooms, etc.). Ideally, for a kitchen backsplash you should cut out the greenboard and patch in CBU (or exterior-rated plywood at the least).
Third, and most important: A partial backsplash should not come down to meet the top surface of the counter; it should come down behind the countertop, which is then set back against the face of the tile. If the HO wants one row of 4x4 tuxedo whites showing above the counter, you set two rows of tile, most of the lower of which will be hidden behind the cab.
Grout the tile like any normal wall tile job, then shove the cab and counter back against it and caulk the joint with Flextra or some other brand of thermoplastic caulk. No need for spacers; the tile won't be sitting on the counter so movement of the cab/counter won't crack the grout, and if the counter ever needs to be changed out, you just cut the caulk, unscrew the top from the cab unit, then pull the top off.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Complete overkill. Almost all tiled shower enclosures installed during the 80s and 90s were built using greenboard and mastic. It was the occasional failure that caused the standards to be raised to thinset and backerboard. Most of those homes are still using the showers without any issues, and I can not imagine comparing the situation faced by tile in a shower to that on a backsplash.
Similarly, it was also the fashion for some time to have clean lines in the kitchen without either integral or tile backsplashes, and no one was used greenboard as a substrate. The damage I have seen from these installations has always been the countertop delaminating when water penetrated its backing, not the painted drywall.
If people are going to use their kitchen in ways that warrant the methods you suggest, they are no doubt going to have moisture issues in their cabinets, flooring and many other areas.
installed during the 80s and 90s were built using greenboard and mastic. It was the occasional failure that caused the standards to be raised
You're arguing for a return to low standards--why? Because it's easier? Because it's cheaper? That is a 'disposable housing' attitude; not 'fine homebuilding'.
15-20 years is nothing in the life of a tile installation. If done properly, it should last 50 years or more. I have seen tile jobs done over mud-on-lath in the 1920s that were still in perfect condition 70 or 80 years later. When we demo walls from that era, we don't find frame rot as we do behind 1980s quick-and-easy greenboard jobs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Amen. Well said.
If you are arguing that the finest homebuilder is the one that recommends doing the most amount of work then I guess Mike Holmes and Frenchy take the title hands down.
Surely there is an appropriate level of effort for every job. To suggest that what could be a simple matter of applying mastic and tile to an existing wall as a backsplash be complicated by removing the countertop, plumbing and drywall for no real appreciable gain just doesn't make sense. I'm certainly not advocating a return to greenboard showers, but neither do I see the point of taking one small component in Matt's kitchen and building it to last 70 plus years when I am pretty sure the rest of the construction does not have that longevity. I wish we built houses as shells that could withstand centuries of use but we don't, and building one or two applied pieces to another standard isn't going to change that.
Your point about dressing a shack in a castle's finery is well taken, but I don't think it's that big a deal to do what I suggested. There's no need to take out the plumbing; all that has to be done is unhook the speedway and the p-trap, pull the cab unit (with the counter on it) off the wall, and patch in a 12"-deep piece of CBU the width of the splash. That's about an hour's work and the materials involved would run maybe $25. Mixing up a bucket of thinset takes 10 minutes longer than opening a can of mastic, 'cuz ya gotta wait for it to slake.
So we're talking about maybe a c-note extra altogether...and Matt will be able to walk away knowing the job is bulletproof and that he's not gonna have any callbacks.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Put that way I'm beginning to agree with you. Which sort of diminishes the impact of my initial Jeff Buck style sortie into the discussion.I don't use mastic for anything anymore because it always seems to involve throwing out some item of clothing afterwards.
Recently I have been trying to come to terms with the disposable nature of many modern building materials by dividing the building process into permanent and replaceable categories. I try and make the permanent as long lasting as I can, and the replaceable as easy to remove in the future as possible.
one bit of advice to a beginner is to sponge off your grout before it starts to set too well. matter of fact you are better off to grout too soon than too late and if done properly you can sponge quite early in the process.
Also, for adhering the tiles to the wall, use adhesive (PL or Liquid nails even) for this small job, any thinset or mastic will be a bigger mess than it is worth for this small job.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
So Matt, how'd that backplash work out and what process did you use?
Cheers.
94969.19
In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
I installed the tile with mastic. Used some thin cardboard strips as the spacer below. Next day I caulked this gap, and the following day I grouted the rest. I used caulk that was made by the same co as the grout to get as close to a perfect match as possible. Home buyer was happy - I guess - didn't say anything about it. House is now sold. I thought I did pretty good. I think I had 1 piece that had a slightly smaller gap below - the top of this piece was below the window apron which was applied after the tile. Other than that, it was very close to perfect.
I had done tile a few times before but only on floors. Using the spacer was the key piece of advice here that really helped the outcome. Thanks guys.
I ended up buying a diamond wheel for my 4" grinder and one of those score and snap tile cutters.
Edited 12/31/2008 5:50 pm ET by Matt