Single home wind mill generator?
Seeing as photovoltaics remain impractical due to their high prices and limited available sun in many areas, are there companies making small windmills generators for backyard installations?
Seeing as photovoltaics remain impractical due to their high prices and limited available sun in many areas, are there companies making small windmills generators for backyard installations?
Ford Motor Company slashes prices for some F-150 Lightning models to stimulate demand for electric vehicles (EVs).
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Replies
yep, Northern tool and equiptment has some in their catalogue
Thanks for that info. Looks like right now they're about as efficient, dollar for dollar, as the photovoltaics but maybe as interest grows, so will the technology.
The more efficient they become, the more popular they'll be and less expensive they'll be due to higher production runs and other competitive advantages.
I haven't seen that happen yet.
I have thought of putting one on my roof attached to my chimney.
I live in the middle of a city, I wonder what the codes officiers would say?
I have thought of putting one on my roof attached to my chimney.
I live in the middle of a city, I wonder what the codes officiers would say?
Check the linked site in post #9. It gives some basic information about what's need to make one of these work efficiently. I had a similar idea about installing one on my property but it looks like like the numerous obstructions are going to put an end to that little dream. :-(
I have a 3 story house that is equal or higher in height. It might work.
The city removed about 10 houses behind my house opening up the area for wind to go.
At the current rate of houses being tore down, I will be one of about3 houses left on my block!
I have thought of putting one on my roof attached to my chimney.
I live in the middle of a city, I wonder what the codes officiers would say?
I would suggest you go see the model of turbine in action prior to buying it. I've been to a few alternative energy fairs that had smaller turbines and some of them are a bit noisy.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
The code #### will come down on that one, I bet. A chimney is just not a structural element to resist the forces of wind on a device mounted on it. You were kidding, right?
yep
welcome!
Do a Google search on micro wind turbines: There's a lot of stuff being developed out there. Some of it very affordable...
I did a couple of searches, starting with micro wind turbines and then leaving off the word micro. You're right about the high interest. Lots of information available, some of it questionable but mostly pretty good reading.
One thing that jumps out at me right away is "location, location, location". If the thing isn't up above everything by thirty feet or more, it's not going to work well enough to pay for itself.
That makes me think that we going to need a national debate about this topic... whether we're or not we're willing to put the big ones on top of ridges all across the country.
I drove through the Tehacapi mountains a couple of years ago, perpendicular to a ridge where big windmills were mounted and turning slowly, in a long row.
It was a mildly troubling sight, like an Orwellian message from the future about fulfilling the vain needs of humans in our quest for effortless luxury and comfort while disfiguring our beautiful environment with big mechanical contrivances.
Edited 4/29/2008 1:44 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
One of my Sister-in-Laws is employed by BPA and is pretty heavily involved in the management of the windmill array on the Columbia River.While they've resolved or reduced most of the wildlife issues, the "visual pollution" aspect continues to be an intractable problem.But then, coal plants, nuke plants, hydro-electric....all have their detractors.Most recently, there have been some promising developments with tidal and coastal wave generation...but while those systems have little visual impact, commercial fishermen have concerns...I should have made it easier on your windmill search; after I posted that, I remembered that I had bookmarked my search of several months ago.Sorry! :-(
While they've resolved or reduced most of the wildlife issues, the "visual pollution" aspect continues to be an intractable problem.
Well, at least they're silent.
But then, coal plants, nuke plants, hydro-electric....all have their detractors.
Yes and wind has more positive sides than most of the others so it's not really that serious, more a question about how to reduce our habitual desire for effortless living.
I should have made it easier on your windmill search
Not to worry. It wasn't difficult to figure out how to re-define the topic so's to get more info. I only mentioned that to make it a little easier for anyone who's following the thread and wants to know what I was reading.
Edited 4/29/2008 1:56 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
While they've resolved or reduced most of the wildlife issues, the "visual pollution" aspect continues to be an intractable problem.
I've never understood folks who complain about turbines being visual pollution, but they don't mind cell phone towers, communication towers, or coal-fired power plants with belching smoke.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
We have a lot of visual pollution: Billboards, cell phone towers, overhead utilities....lots of human blight on the landscape;But beauty is in the eye of the beholder: One poster on this thread talked of seeing turbines on a trip to Yosemite Park and was conflicted about which was most beautiful; the turbines or the Park.I've spent a lot of time over the years in Yosemite and I hold it as one of the most beautiful places on the planet....but....to each his own.I am an Animal
Orwellian? Really?
I love watching windmills. They're so relaxing to watch, spinning away.
Also, I wouldn't say that I want an effortless life, exactly, but I wouldn't want a life of struggle and drudgery such as in the pre-industrial age. I think it's OK to mix cleverness and wisdom: to ascertain what is good, and to achieve it via ingenuity.
I've nothing against windmills dotting the landscape, here and there. As I said, it's the thought of seeing them lined up on ridges across the country that bothers me.
There's one windmill "farm" in Southern California which makes perfect sense to me. It's in a pass between two ranges of mountains in a desert area, between San Bernardino and Palm Springs, where the winds are pretty constant and particularly strong at times.
I'm sure that most of us can agree that such places are meant to be used in that way for our benefit. But, if in order to have enough electricity to power personal vehicles instead of relying on public transport and bicyles, we're going to have to suffer with rows of windmills across every prominent piece of terrain in the country I'd say we're damned by our self indulgent way of life to lose a lot of natural beauty.
I prefer to see more people getting involved in the movement back to self sufficiency on a smaller level. Growing and canning our own food for example, as my grandfather did with his Victory Garden during and after World War II, next to the railroad tracks on the near north side of Chicago. Lots of people did that and enjoyed it too. Very satisfying to do for yourself in that fundamental way.
Edited 4/29/2008 5:59 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
You could also become a dairy farmer and grow your own methane to light the lamps with so you can stay awake at night counting the money you make from the cheeses you sell made from the milk you ....the world is your oyster when you are ready to work for it.
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No need to grow our own methane when we have you. ;-)
Glad to light your way.Too bad you can't bottle me.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Glad to light your way.
Too bad you can't bottle me.
I recall my first experience of dorm living. The food was giving everyone gas, so much that it became a singular focus of humor.
One evening, after lentil bean soup at supper, it occured to me that we might put collectors in the chairs and mattresses and pipe them to gas lights for evening study purposes.
Someone else then suggested that we make the plumbing more direct. And it went on and on...
"it went on and on..."and became an ongoing source of de-light!
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I hear what you are saying on the machinery dottled landscape. I always liked the oil pumps as part of it in west Texas. That and the gain silos.I wonder how the Dutch felt about th elook of the windmills in the sixteenth century. we see them as quaint decorations amoung the tulips now, but do you suppose there were some folks who hated the sight and sound of them back then?
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paul..... do you have a movement on the island to adopt windpower ?
we 've got a lot of interest here.... and as far as municipalities go... it may be viable
as far as individuals go.. to me it only makes sense for those who are not on the grid
for the the rest it costs more in terms of capital & maintenance than the return
same thing with photovoltaics.... the cost of maintenance is not being properly factored in
what's wrong with good old nuclear ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'd like the idea of windpower myself but for several things.I don't get along so well with mechanical stuff - that is why i am a carpenter and not a plumber or a mechanic - and i know that windmills require a lot of maintaining. Can you see me climbing a hundred foot tower with my oil can and wrench in ten years? Neither can I.But I like the concept and the look of the things.The other reason it would not work for me is that our place is nestled in a hollow, so when the wind is noticeable here, it is really howling on the shore. We just don't see very much.There have been ideas of tidal hydropower floated here and there, but too many NIMBYs stand up to say how ugly the developement would be right on the shore where it would be visible from their sailboats.Same with propopsed LNG transfer ports. They get shut down.We had nuclear, but it aged out and was unpopular. They closed Maine Yankee.There have been a couple hydro power stations on rivers closed to let the fish have better access.You name it - anything in this state that can provide for energy needs and it gets shut down, nipped in the bud, cut off at the knees, smoked out and flushed down the toilet.
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what's wrong with good old nuclear ?
Well, assuming you never have an accident, your day-to-day biggest problem is the amount of radioactive STUFF that it produces every year. And I'm not talking about uranium, but rather just the misc stuff that comes into contact with the radiation and therefore has to be safely stored for a few hundred/thousand years before it's safe for humans to handle it.
Used to be that you could look up how much radioactive waste was produced per plant size (on average) per year. But seems like lately it is harder to come by that info. And I'm talking a somewhat accurate govt number, not a number put out by tree huggers.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
I was very much pro-wind energy until recently. The Spanish company, Iberdola, wants to build wind turbines in my town. So I have been learning more about it.
Today's turbines are very different than the ones we saw a decade ago. They are about three times as large. Each turbine requires about 30 acres of land, with a minimum of five acres devoted exclusively to the tower and immediate infrastructure.
Each turbine also requires a massive concrete foundation that will eventually be the landowner's responsibility after the lease runs out and Iberdola abandons the tower due to unprofitability, obsolescence or whatever.
I live in prime farm country, and many farmers are being persuaded that these leases will be a windfall (no pun intended!) for them. But unless they read the fine print, they won't realize how severely impacted their farming and access to their own lands will be. Above- and below-ground transmission lines, access roads, etc. will all trump the landowner's private land uses to that of the energy company.
But, I am still undecided about these issues. There is plenty of information on-line, both pro and con, and I am trying to sort it all out. With only 2,400 residents, I fear our town will be no match to a multinational conglomerate.
On a similar topic, millions of dollars of public funds subsidized the construction of an ethanol plant four miles down the road from me. From what I understand, it employs 11 people, drives up corn and other crop prices, and requires 1.1 gallons of petroleum-based fuel to create 1.0 gallon of ethanol. I'm not sure that makes much sense, either.
In any case, I own 30 underutilized acres. I lease 7 acres to my farmer neighbor, but am very interested in using my property for some level of subsistence farming, small-scale wind energy, photo-voltaic electric production, ground-source heat, etc.
Allen
I know what kind of land you are on. Seems a desecration to despoil that with wind towers. But think of the pole beans you could grow there with a pole like that! LOL Think jack and the beanstalk.The ethanol thing has been Bush's biggest boondongle. Bad idea
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"But think of the pole beans you could grow.."
Alas, I fear the growing season here in the frozen north is too short for non-magical beans to make much progress!
Now, the wild grape vines and poison ivy might do better. I've seen many 5-inch diameter vines climbing to the top of 100-foot trees. But a 100 foot tree is dwarfed by these monster turbines. Plus the vine roots might struggle a bit against the yards and yards of concrete at the base of these things.
Have you been back to your old "neck o' the woods" since the turbines were built in the Weathersfield area? I think that's Wyoming County. I'm not sure if those are the new generation turbines (huge) or not.
Allen
No, it must have been ten years since I was back there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
On a similar topic, millions of dollars of public funds subsidized the construction of an ethanol plant four miles down the road from me. From what I understand, it employs 11 people, drives up corn and other crop prices, and requires 1.1 gallons of petroleum-based fuel to create 1.0 gallon of ethanol. I'm not sure that makes much sense, either.
Just don't let Boss Hog on to this information. Ssshhhh![email protected]
Ethanol may even use more fossil energy than it creates according to this professor:
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/patzek/CRPS416-Patzek-Web.pdfPage 26, figure 19.The server seems a little slow at times, may have to try more than once to download.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s.
"
Recent info in Home Energy magazine suggests vertical wind turbines--particularly in cities--are bogus.Out here on the prairie, farmers--in general--are gung ho for wind farms. Lease payments are on the order of $2k-3k per tower per year and there's no problem farming around them.
EricPaulson.
I'm sorry a lot of your information is wrong.. Some is outdated or simply taken from sources intent on misinformation for various reasons..
First it doesn't take 1.1 gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol.. it's about .6 and has the potential for getting lower..
Ethanol is an improvement over gasolene in that it carries an added oxygen molecule with it which means it burns a little cleaner. (not much but some)
That 1.1 is the decrease in mileage 15% enthanol get's as a result of the lower BTU count in alcohol.. That has the potential for dramtic reversal however.. Ethanol has a far higher octane than gasolene about 115 octane..
The solution is either higher compression engines (which are more efficent and get better mileage) or turbo/supercharging with it's potential for better mileage..
The full potential there can be a gain as much as 30% over currant!
All is not perfect and a lot of improvement is called for.. But we have the potential for major improvements with ethanol that gasolene simply doesn't have..
Frankly I'd rather pay American Farmers to grow corn that foriegn countries to buy their oil..
According to this professor, the ratio of 1.1 to 1 is wrong, but in a bad way.http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/patzek/CRPS416-Patzek-Web.pdfPage 26, figure 19.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s.
"
When you guys are all looking at the efficiency rates for ethanol and debating that, be sure to check the dates of some of the sources. It was only a couple years back that it took two of fossil fuel to make one of ehtanol. today, ethanol has pulled ahead slightly, meaning we use up 1 gal gas to make 1.1 of ethanol, but that increases overall pollution dispersed, but the newest brewing facilities are getting even more efficient at this.Still the surronding problems with storage, shipping, decreased power delivered, etc all compound the issue. There has always been a dream that someday we would find a magic way to turn water into fuel. This does that in a roundabout way I suppose.One phrase I heard recently is that we have created a problem by feeding corn to yeast instead of feeding it to humans. Made a darn good soundbite.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, years ago, I was listening to Art Bell one night on a road trip and he had a guest on who claimed he was about to go public with an auto capable engine that ran on dirt.Never heard any more about it. Probably someone from the oil industry took him out in the woods and shot him.That's my conspiracy theory, anyway.:-)I am an Animal
auto capable engine that ran on dirt.
That dirt like the old 1870s Wyoming cowboys who found a bunch of black rocks near Gillette that burned???
Diesel's first engine ran on powered coal.
I learn something from you about every 3rd post, Art; I didn't know that.But IIRC, the dirt engine guy lived just outside Houston....'course he may have been settled on some petroleum saturated ground...(BTW, I sweated some pipes the other day with that old torch you sent a few years ago; I use it from time to time....works great....and cheaper than using MAPP gas and keeps my pumping arm in shape). :-)I am an Animal
Cannot recall the movie title, but there was a western comedy about 30 years ago with Dean and a few other big names at the time about Texas in the 1830s, one line was complaining about how the cattle would not drink out of the ponds with the black scum...."curse fo Texas"
"Giant" ?Good movie.I am an Animal
Musta been one of Boss Hog's friends - you know how them farmers are 'bout dirt
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here's a statistic that I recently came across:
"The Sun is an average star, similar to millions of others in the Universe. It is a prodigious energy machine, manufacturing about 3.8 x 1023 kiloWatts (or kiloJoules/sec). In other words, if the total output of the Sun was gathered for one second it would provide the U.S. with enough energy, at its current usage rate, for the next 9,000,000 years."
Found at this website: http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/primer/primer.html
Now, if we could only figure out how to harness that efficiently. Wind, solar, whatever."Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
One phrase I heard recently is that we have created a problem by feeding corn to yeast instead of feeding it to humans. Made a darn good soundbite.
What if we're feeding corn to yeast and then to humans. I've always been in favor of that :)jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Ken,
I'm sorry I tried but couldn't open it.. Given the source (Berkley) There is good reason to question that information.. I've never known Calfornia to be the hotbed of agricultural research.
I have spoken to local sources and while some disagree with the whole concept the numbers even opponants use allow for a net gain currantly with an increase in the future.
What's not said is that while the alcohol is extracted from the corn the corn doesn't disappear. It's feed back to cattle as feed..
I live here in the corn belt and can tell you the gain in the price of corn has greatly increased the chance of farmers to stay on the land that their family has owned for generations..
It's not perfect!
I know it's far from perfect!
But it's gotten our heads out of the lock they were in! Now they are speaking about switch grass and other biomass extraction..
and while that isn't the whole answer either we won't go from big blocks and Hemi's to solar powered transport without some crutches..
Accept those less than perfect sollutions as part of the price of progress.
It's that or the earth has about 6 billion too many people and a lot of us have to get off..
Yep, not much agriculture in California. Although they may have improved, I think they have vet schools now.Seriously, he obviously has an axe to grind. OTOH, he shows all of his calculations and cites sources.And it is difficult to load. I finally downloaded a copy and kept it for reference -- part of some research for school.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s.
"
To Ken and Frenchy;Not much agriculture in California?ROTFLMFAO!!!!I am an Animal
Notchman
You're right I was thinking they don't grow much corn there.. I forgot about all the fruits and vegetables, cotton, rice etc..
You got me..
Which is why I put "seriously" after I got started....++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s.
"
Ken,
I think it was Piffin who said to check the dates on the source of information and I know that's true regarding ethanol production..
Plus there are a whole lot of assumptions in anybodies calculations.. Type of soil planted in. Type and efficency of tractor used for planting and harvesting.. Number of rows planted number of rows harvested. soil moisture, Tempurature at time of planting and harvesting.. tire slipage, etc. etc. etc..
To say one number is correct for all of those variables stretches credibility..
I have a buddy who brews corn to make alcohol, for drinking.. I guess you can make a whole lot of it for personal comsumption. (or gifts since he doesn't drink much himself) Anyway he doesn't use a single drop of oil.. he's one of the cooking oil users.. His tractor smells like a popcorn machine when he's planting and harvesting corn.. He does use some to mix with the cooking oil in the winter to keep the oil line from gelling..
If you head into southern Minnesota at spring planting time and you smell popcorn coming from a field you can be pretty sure you have a cooking oil user.. They have to be throwing the numbers off a lot..
Keep trying to download the document, he's using national averages.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s.
"
Another thing that doesnt get brought up about corn ethanol is how much water it takes to make a gallon of it.
Last I heard it took 7 gal of water to make one gallon of ethanol. That aint going to fly long term I think.
I firmly believe that clean fresh drinking water is going to be in short supply in my lifetime.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
madmadscientist,
I wish people could think outside of their box.. The corn belt has no shortage of fresh water. In fact the opposite is most often the case.. Flooding is frequently a serious problem in the midwest where corn grows normally.
That's indeed why most corn does grow in the midwest.. Wheat grows where it is drier corn grows where it is wetter..
IN Calfornia water fresh drinking water is already a problem.. You're stealing it from everyplace you can and your reserviors are low, the Colorado river no longer reaches the ocean.
How long you think its going to be before we figure out a way to steal it from you guys?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I think a pipeline from the great lakes to CA has already been seriously considered and proposed.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's been proposed - and those who proposed it nearly got their nuts choped off! The states with the Great Lakes are wise to preserve that treasure and fight anyone who wants to drain them.
As a consrvative, you should understand the argument "We just spent a billion dollars and didn't make a difference - lets spend TWO billion next time and se if that works!" is just a bad argument. Substitute gallon with dollars.
I'm just responding to the concept of using great lakes water for far away communities, I don't sugest that you support that idea.
This country has alot of water woes, and we have to get smarter about it FAST.
Here in Orange County (home of all the beautiful people... and us) they just built a sewage water reclamation facility that pumps cleaned up toilet water back into the aquifer. That toilet I just flushed will be back in the drinking glass I serve my kids later on... ABOUT DANG TIME THAT HAPPENED!
There is some research going on right now about using the cold of deep waters to condense fresh water and even possibly generate power. The idea is to pump it up on land and then directly return in, just keeping it flowing in a loop to continually bring in new fridgid water. I think the Navy has some test projects going on with this right now.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
xxPaulCPxx
there is a real differance between surplus water and taking needed water..
Flooding rivers present a surplus water situation.. Money needs to be spent to deal with that problem and as long as we are why not spend a little more and get the water to where it will do some good not just not do any damage?
Would New Orleans have flooded if giant tunnels had been avialable to lower the water levels around New Orleans when the storms hit? Once that water was taken from the river and Lake Poncitarain why not send it out to the arrid west and use it to turn desert land into orchards?
Same with The upper Mississippi river and the Red river of the north.. Use giant storm tunnels to drian the river and send the resulting water to the Ogalalla aquafer.
The water can be sent via tunnels bored with big tunnel boring machines like the chunnel under the english channel.. A hand full of wind generators can provide the needed power and it can run under existing freeways so no right of way issues are affected..
Frenchy, can you rethink what you just stated here?
Would New Orleans have flooded if giant tunnels had been avialable to lower the water levels around New Orleans when the storms hit? Once that water was taken from the river and Lake Poncitarain why not send it out to the arrid west and use it to turn desert land into orchards?
Same with The upper Mississippi river and the Red river of the north.. Use giant storm tunnels to drian the river and send the resulting water to the Ogalalla aquafer.
The water can be sent via tunnels bored with big tunnel boring machines like the chunnel under the english channel.. A hand full of wind generators can provide the needed power and it can run under existing freeways so no right of way issues are affected..
Hmmm.
Tunnel boring is rather expensive. About $16 M/mile up my way. And with the water table issues and lack of grade in New Orleans, I found your idea, incredulous.
New Orleans needs massive pumps with storm water detention basins capable of handling a 100 year event.
And the best you are going to do for any rerouting of water is with open flow channels.
Impossible is an opinion.
Engineerguy,
Total damage done to New Orleans was how much? When the next event happens how much more will be lost? When will flooding ever end? I can speak about Fargo/Moorehead areas destruction with recent floods and all we've spent in a vain attempt to prevent it from happening again. Plus all the various towns and and crop land ruined along the upper Mississippi.
We need to start thinking long term solutions. If we spend as much as you are saying per mile so what? That's money spent on America by Americans for the benefit of Americans.. Some might call that investing rather than spending..
Making the tunnel boring equipment will put a lot of people to work.. (Americans!) they will pay taxes and help pay for the equipment. In addition all the people working on such a tunnel would pay taxes..
Plus once we get that flood water to the arid portions of America turning desert wasteland into orchards and farmland..There will be further returns from such use.
Besides we'd spend much more than that on obsolete weapon systems every year. They are saying a new aircraft carrier costs 1 trillion dollars. A few squadrons of the new F22 would be another trillion dollars.. Do we really need that? What if we got by with the 16 we already have and spent that money on ourselves instead?
I remember the pumps used in New Orleans date from 1908. Gee wouldn't it be interesting if we added some new pumps 100 years later?
Building up levees has a point of diminishing returns and is terribly expensive not to mention it tends to isolate neighborhoods.(and ruins views of the Mississippi.
Think of other massive projects we built even during the depression, some of the great dams and the empire state building etc..
Please think of my ideas in broad brush strokes rather than concrete finalized plans.. pull the water out of the river with short tunnels and then build flood canals.
If lifting all of the water required for southern California over the mountains is possible why would raising it the required height prove impossible? It's purely a matter of deciding it should be done and then doing it!
Since, as you probably already know, a significant portion of New Orleans is 1.Below the level of the Mississippi River; 2 Below the level of Lake Ponchartrain and; 3. Below seal level.Tunneling drainage routes would appear to be a monumental task given that keeping the tunnel project dry as the machine worms its way to high ground would take a major effort, to say the least.Then, in the case of catastrophic levee failure, where is an acceptable place to accept an ungodly amount of somewhat briney water inland?If you're up to a major Corps of Engineers type undertaking, why not just fill the low land in to the top of the existing levees (given that the existing base may be to unstable for that option)?I am an Animal
Notchman,
Gee, however did they bore a tunnel under the English channel, or to New York city, or Oakland etc..
I'm sorry but the how to has been around far too long for that to be a concern.. The only question is, Do we have the will to do it!
As to building up the city of New Orlean to non floodable levels, several reasons not to do that. First that would require building everything new. While some might find that attractive most of the rest of us would miss the old historic parts of new Orleans.
second finding that much fill would force some other place to become pretty naked..
Third that would only benefit the city of New orleans.. making the rest of the delta vulnerable to future flooding..
Third the advantage of taking flood water into the arid southwest would be lost.
Edited 5/3/2008 1:35 pm ET by frenchy
Here's a related question and similarly half hair-brained idea.
I recall reading about the enormous aquifer which is under most of the mid-west and the Great Plains. Seems that we've been slowly depleting the water stored there, mostly for irrigation, over the last century, and that it's at dangerous low levels.
How about we figure a way to replenish the aquifer rapidly during floods, via large diameter pipes connected to underground lakes? Seems like a more appropriate use of the water and simpler to do.
In other words, do you want to invest in a system which makes the Great Plains safe from drought or would you prefer to water a few thousand golf courses in the SW?
The Ogalallah aquifer is under Kansas and neighboring states. back in the early nineties, i had read even then that it had been drawn down so much that some land surfaces were already seventeen feet lower than they had been, floating on top of the water body there. So refilling it would take enough pressure to jack all that land back up.The other side of pumping water down the drain so to speak, like that is that lots of oil drilling now uses hot water injection to drive the oil and gas up and out. I don't know if anybody has figured the long tern consequnces of that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting. I hadn't heard/read about the that phenomenon.
In any case, I'm assuming that there are many engineers in various state and federal conservation agencies who are waaaaaaaay ahead of any ideas which may occur to me, as far removed as I am from the problem of replenishing the aquifer.
If it were possible to divert river water to that purpose, I imagine they'd have worked up numerous plans, many years ago.
Hmmm..... I live on top of the Ogallala--and where it's being depleted fastest-- and in the scores of articles about the aquifer I've read in local papers, I've never seen mention of land subsidence being a problem. Maybe a problem further west, but not here----yet?
I believe it's the depletion of the aquifer beneath the Phoenix Valley in AZ that has caused the drop in surface elevation.I first came across that info years ago in James Michener's "Texas" and, as I often do when when I come across an unattributed "fact" in a novel, did a bit of fact-checking on my own, and, as usual, Michener had done his homework. (the actual elevation drop, IIRC, was about 12 feet, not that it matters).But, at the same time, I was able to verify that the Ogallala Aquafer had also been severely depleted, largely because of over-use for cotton farming in the early to mid 20th century.This data dates back a ways, before Google searches, so there is probably more up to date data available now.I do find Frenchy's assertion that New Orleans flood waters could be used to replenish these water sources a bit bogus....the water he suggests pumping to the aquifers is mostly un-potable, especially if the flooding contained the salt of sea water, not to mention the cooties it would pick up in a densely populated city. Not only would it compromise the purity of the original aquifers, but would require some pretty heavy treatment before use on the surface. Might as well start drawing down those Minnesota lakes. :-)I am an Animal
Notchman
Hello! You're both right and wrong about river water..
First high water on either the upper Mississippi, Red River of the North does have too much sediment in it to be potable. That's why the cites who use river water run it thru filter systems. sand is most commonly used as first "element"
Second there isn't some big tank underground in the Ogallala aquafer where contaminated water would be pumped into.. it filters down there I assume thru some sand.
The aquafer as I understand it is a water bearing strata not some giant cave or "tank" Water is being drained faster than it can replenish itself. Without some aide it is supposed to dry up in the near future.. Already farmers are going far deeper to pull out water. Here's a possible solution.. One states problem can be several states solution. How is that not a win/win solution?
Same with the lower Mississippi around New Orleans. High water removed from that river would need some filering process to turn it into the sort of water we commonly see in lakes. Unlike the big lift in southern Calfornia we wouldn't have to raise the water over mountains! Simply lift it high enough to allow some sort of ditch to cause the sediment to drop out and into temp pools and ponds where other contaminates can be filtered off..
If those pools and ponds become fishing and recreational sites well I don't see that as a bad thing do you? Texas and New Mexico would probably enjoy a few such places.. on the water's jouney to the arid parts of the country.. where it could turn desert wasteland into orchards and crop land..
Frenchy,
I think that your proposal would cost too much to ever get the approvals, etc., but I like the thought process. There has to be a way to distribute the excesses and resolve the shortages. But CA is too far from the Mississippi. For CA drinking water, I expect that there will be cheap energy (from sun, or wind, or waves) used to desalinize seawater to drinking water and irrigation water.
For Red River flooding, there need to be some improvements to the wetlands, to hold the excess for a short time. Maybe that will work for the Mississippi, too. Set up several (hundreds? thousands?) of parks, golf courses, tennis courts, playgrounds, small town airports, Minneapolis parking lots, etc., a few feet higher than normal river elevation. When the river rises, it shuts down the park or golf course for a week or two. If the river can spread, it won't get as high, and it won't damage anything that can't be repaired easily. This is what city planners are supposed to get paid to do, but they get paid more for approving building projects that crowd the rivers and don't allow it to spread out.
mms
I didn't propose it to solve California's problem. I assume when the big one comes that will be solved for us <big old grin> I used California's big lift as an example of what can be done!
Don't forget that all of southern California's water comes over the mountains.. it can be done! Southern California uses more water per day than the flood water of either the upper or lower Mississippi can produce! The only question is are we willing to do it?
I am only wildly guessing here but let's say that fixing the flood waters issues would cost 1 trillion dollars. so we build one less aircraft carrier or start one less war with some banana republic.. that's the money source..
What do you think China spent on the Three Gorges Dam project? or building whole new cities where none existed before? What about all those miles of freeway she's building? To a certain degree fixing your own infrastructure can be paid for with potential savings and taxes collected from wages paid etc.. how much will it cost to rebuild New Orleans. How much would the nation gain from turning desert into crop land?
Building those tunnel boring machines would put a lot of companies to work.. and a lot of employees. As would building the tunnels themselves and the orchards, crop lands etc..
Wetlands don't solve the flooding problem efficiently.. good land is too valuable to waste.. we've got to feed the world and that's going to require more and more crops not a removal of those already producing.. not to mention urban problems which is what gets really expensive when flooded..
" Don't forget that all of southern California's water comes over the mountains.. "
Another Frenchyism.
You live in Minnesota. What the guff do you know about S. Cal's water supply system? Not to mention you're wrong. There is rain, wells, and snowmelt within the LA basin. Not to mention an increasing push towards desalination. At least I lived there for 5 years. And we held our rose society in the Santa Margarita Water District meeting rooms with huge maps of their sources.
peteschlagor,
I lived in SanDiego for 7 years Plus I spend at least a few weeks are year there on vacation..
The rain in Southern California is well known for it's absence. That's why wild fires are so common. Rain fall and snow melt is trival Thus those recharged wells are trival compared to the water used by Jack-in-the-box resturants alone!
Then YOU tell them that.
It's bull for you to say "S. Cal gets ALL of it's water over the mountains."
peteschlagor,
You must be pretty desperate to attempt focus on one word than accept that the comment is valid..
Take all the water they pump over the mountains away and Millions of southern Calfornians go thirsty. Not to mention the swimming pools dry out, lawns blow away, and landscapes dry up!
frenchy: I've got another way to generate power. If all the water systems in the US installed generators in their h2o systems, that depend on elevation change, I bet they could generate a lot of power.
I bet if NYC alone would do this, the idea makes me giddy!
Did anyone here how the wave generators in the east river are doing?
frammer52
That idea has merit however you must realise that the water pressure comes from the water that's pumped which requires energy in the first place..
gravity fed systems ie NYC
frammer52
You mean all that water get's to the tops of those high rise apartments from gravity?
That's impressive..
I honestly didn't know that..
I know around here the city has water towers they fill with pumps during the night when demand is low, but I didn't know that there was someplace taller than those New York high rise places the water was sourced from..
There water comes from upstate. You ought to see how big the tunnels are!
Last I knew they are making a new tunnel as the old one is over 100 yrs. old!
frammer 52,
May I please suggest that you don't attach a wind mill generator to your chimmney? they really are rarely strong enough to stand up to the wind pressure.. the vibration of the turbine would quickly fracture everything and you'd find it in the street some day..
I won't.
Use the levees to keep water in NOLA and pump the water to California.
During the storms the wind is too high to run the wind turbines. So you still have flooding..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann
Last I heard tropical storms don't shut down power to the whole region.
400 miles of the Gulf Coast after Hurricane Katrina, NOLA was TS Katrina, pretty well shut it down.
madmad scientist,
Frankly I've been suggesting that for several years now.. Big overflow storm tunnels to drain those rivers into the Ogalla Aquifer. Big overflow storm tunnels to drain the lower Mississipppi from around New Orleans into the arid western lands and turn desert into farm land.
IF Southern California can lift water over the mountains into the LA basin getting water into giant tunnels under freeways should be a piece of cake..
Last I heard it took 7 gal of water to make one gallon of ethanol. That aint going to fly long term I think.
Personally I think corn is a horrible crop to make ethanol from, but there is a lot of misinformation about all alternative energy items. You hear people say that corn based ethanol uses more energy to make than it produces, but that's wrong. It isn't a very positive ratio, but it is positive.
You hear people say that using corn for ethanol makes a shortage of livestock feed, but the leftover corn-substance can be turned into animal feed once the ethanol plant is done with it, so you're not losing much feed corn.
As to the 7 gal of water. Where is it going? Do they not reclaim part of it and reuse it? I know coal fired power plants and nuclear power plants use MASSIVE amounts of water, but much of it is released back into the lakes/etc, and can be drawn back in. So it isn't like the "use" it and it goes away. Not like the coal they burn.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
"not much agriculture in California"You're kidding, right?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, I'm kidding. I have an ag background, I'm well aware of the roll agriculture plays in California's economy.Apparently the "seriously" wasn't enough of a cue that I wasn't serious in the first paragraph.++++++++++++++++++
"Where will our children find their enjoyment when everything gets itself done by steam? Frederick Law Olmsted, 1850s.
"
I've never known Calfornia to be the hotbed of agricultural research.
Shirley, you jest! http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/
frenchy has never been known as the hotbed of factual presentation.If somebody presents a fact to disagree with him, he now falls into the low of trying to discredit the source.
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Piffin
When Called on it many many posts ago I admitted that I mispoke. I should have said not a hot bed of corn growing. I went on to comment about the work done in The various midwestern universities.
But Of course since my politics is differant than yours facts don't bother you.. attack attack attack..
You runnin' for office?
Yeah, I think I had posted the critique before coming in the thread to your retraction. Maybe an edit in that original post would help.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To his credit, Frenchy did a mea culpa on the CA Ag comment.I admire humility....a few folks here could benefit by a bit of it from time to time.I am an Animal
Isn't that something!
The meds must be kicking in...
peteschlagor,
I've been taking blood pressure medicene now for several years. (about 7 at this point) so I would think that it kicked in a long time ago.
In fact if you are refering to my correction you can go back through my posts and find countless times when I've corrected myself or apologized for a curt comment..
I wonder Pete, could I find the same on any of your posts?
Obviously, I haven't been one of your favorite authors.
peteschlagor,,
not since all of your posts towards me are attacks and often personal
Then you've noticed the resemblence to those of yours.
But let's quit this quibbling. There's a good subject at hand.
You putting up windmills on your lake? Maybe off shore out in the middle?
Peteschlagor,
I live on a quiet bay of a large lake made up of quiet bays..The tall trees shelter the small bay and since the land rises away from the lake steeply wind power is not realistic. Wind is often too slight to move the racing sailboats with their giant sails. Some days My weathervane doesn't see enough wind to point in the direction of the wind.. Since the weathervane is above maximum building height The number of days where enough wind would be generated to create electricity are nominal and not even worth a consideration..
Frenchy is a born salesman. If I had a good product that needed someone to go out and do direct sales, I'd hire him immediately.
I'd also take anything he said with a grain or two of salt. ;-)
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
Thank you for your kind words.. As to the grain of salt comment,, well if I was selling you something I'd bring rehms of documentation and testamonials..
That's an easy sale.. the hard sell is those who's mind is stuck so ridgidly along one track that they can't concieve anything else. In fact anything other than the known is such a slap in their face they attack in reaction..
Piffin and I have such a relationship.. Piffin often gives very sound advice. if your goal is to do a good job at a profit..
On the other hand I offer alternatives that are just as sound but directed to those who's focus is affordablity rather than profitablity..
The real truth is for Piffin he's absolutely correct from his perspective and for me I'm absolutely correct.. The differance is in priorities..
I agree (kitchen sized salt shaker close at hand). ;-)
Many of us BTers are often strong advocates for a particular product or method. Nothing wrong with that on a message board as long as what we present is factual according to our own experience.
Even incomplete statements are acceptable because it's a Q&A conversation, one which requires that everyone participate fully if they want to get and/or give the best answers.
Hudson Valley Carpenter.
Wow! twice in one day!
I do wish it was possible to give short quick answers rather than long posts but have found that if you fail to spell out every single detail or make a single vague statement there are all sorts of people (Many with really valid comments) ready to jump and prove you wrong..
I suspect that it's my fault due to lack of computer savy or methods etc.. But I try..
The worst thing about BT is that it takes me away from my work and challenges my computer and typing skills. Best thing about BT is that it takes me away from my work and challenges my computer and typing skills!
Amen about short posts, I tend to overload what I want to say to be as clear as possible and avoid problems, but I try to say just what I think and try to do so with an open mind.
As far as ethanol is concerned, getting the facts instead of spouting off about what a waste it is appears to be too much trouble for many. I cringe everytime Rush et al brings it up.
Ethanol is not solely responsible for the price of your groceries. We are praying that the proposed plant to be built 10 miles from here comes to be. The strongest supporter is the 100,000 head feedlot just south of here. The distillers grain byproduct is a highly desired feed and is generally cheaper and better than other types. Yes, they use water, but recapture systems and research can cut that tremendously. Plus any discharge can be captured for other valid uses.
The corn they use is not made into breakfast cornflakes. It is animal feed. And if we preserve the product as feed and pull off a usuable product we are merely better utilizing something that will be grown anyway. True as long as we eat beef and pork and chicken.
As far as putting more ground into corn production and away from pasture or other crops, thats the nature of production ag anyway. Its freemarket and will correct soon, too soon for some farmers. The rise in commodity prices is more affected by worldwide factors (increased demand due to export growth, bad crops in other nations, weather, etc.. etc..) than by ethanol. Around here, some years are corn years, some are soybean years, and some are cattle years. Seldom all the same. When crop prices sucked for years from overproduction, the gov't paid to put land out of production through the CRP program.
When the plant is completed it will employ a handful of people. The construction phase will employ many many more. And the benfit of having lots of trucks coming and going will bring more money to the area as well. The road was recently rebuilt and upgraded so infrastructure costs are already diminished. But perhaps the biggest boost is to a more stable ag economy. When farmers know what they can contract corn for, they can adjust to beans, alfalfa and other uses to maximize income.
Yes the farmers are getting good prices now. They need good years to upgrade equipment such as tractors and pivots to better and more effecient models. they have suffered through terrible years for too long, if they don't do it now there will be only a handful of farmers (even less so than now) left, and our small communities will be the worse for it.
As far as transportation costs are concerned, the price of your food has a lot more to do with getting it to the store than what raw materials cost. And perversly, food costs more because gas and diesel cost more because we don't make our own fuel, from whatever source. All of the gas sold in our community is trucked from a pipeline terminal almost exactly 100 miles from here. They could load the empty transports with alcohol and take it right back to the terminal! The added costs would be almost negligable. And the plant would also sit right on one of the busiest rail lines in the U.S.-it hauls coal from Wyoming to points east.
Unfortunately, the biggest boost to our local economy is now iffy because of reckless dissemination of questionable information. We will continue to pray.
""...the gov't paid to put land out of production through the CRP program."" Just one relatively minor point . The CRP is not ALL about subsidizing the farmer. It is also about preserving the land and protecting it from devastation. That is a benefit to every one of us. Bothers me when the focus seems to be only on the subsidy portion of the deal.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
dovetail
Our system of agricultural production is wildly dependant on money from Uncle Sam. Your tax dollars
Farmers amount to 2% of the population of this country yet they affect every one of us..
The really sad part is that so much of the ag subsidies go to already wildly successful farmers instead of struggling family farmers trying to stay on the land their grandparents may have owned..
Take sugar for example. Americans spend 1.8 billion dollars more for our sugar than world prices dictate. yet the small handful of sugar farmers impose massive terrifs in order to keep foreign sugar out of the American market..
Look at mega conglomerations like Cargill who are the largest privately owned company in the world.. They absolutely dominate all aspects of farm life.. everything from selling the seed and fertilizer to buying the crops when ready..
In addition they dominate so much of what Americans eat. FJOC (frozen concentrated orange juice is 85% controlled By Cargill, as is wheat, corn rice ,and most other grain crops.. the land they hold or control makes them America's largest land owner yet the books aren't open because it's a privately held company..
You're paying for all of that!
You pay when you buy their product and when you pay your taxes a large portion goes to benefit Them.. Look at the upgrading of the locks on the Mississippi at an average cost of over 20 million per lock.. Why? 95% of all traffic on the Mississippi is owned or controlled by Cargill. read about the big ditch sometime.. where hundreds of billions of dollars was spent making a canal in the deep south so Cargill didn't have to use railroads (which they don't own)
Don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly about taking land out of production that is of dubious tilling value. Unfortunately too many farmers have to take a short term view to survive and gov't interference just compounds the problem. CRP was a great program from the aspect of increasing habitat and reducing erodable land. Much of it should have never been broken out in the 1st place- roads I drive down have a pasture with a creek, and when it passes the fence there is no sign of a waterway under the cropground until it rains heavily. But when grain brings just enough to pay the interest and survive until next year farmers will do what they have to do. Wish we had a better way on a large scale to do what CRP did and do it more permanently.
As far as I can see, no one is controlling how many ethanol plants get built. (Not that anyone could or should control it, by the way.) I suspect there will be a lot of extra capacity soon, like the fiber optic boom that fizzled.
As far as I can see, no one is controlling how many ethanol plants get built.
Most of them will probably never be finished. there have already been a few hereabouts that ran out of $$ before they got it done. And we're in corn country.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
I do wish it was possible to give short quick answers rather than long posts but have found that if you fail to spell out every single detail or make a single vague statement there are all sorts of people (Many with really valid comments) ready to jump and prove you wrong..
I'm learning to stick to topics which are well defined by the OP, thus allowing for concise factual responses, not personal opinions.
If the OP isn't satisified with my answer he/she can either reply with a question or wait until someone else provides an answer which fits better than mine.
California not a hot bed of ag research?? Ever heard of U.C. Davis???
Badarse..
I'm willing to bet that they don't do a lot of research on corn. I'd suppose that Iowa would lead the nation on that subject although I know we do a lot here in Minnesota..
Fruits, nuts, and some vegetables sure! But Corn ? Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota
I wonder how the Dutch felt about th elook of the windmills in the sixteenth century. we see them as quaint decorations amoung the tulips now, but do you suppose there were some folks who hated the sight and sound of them back then?
I remember seeing a PBS show about the Dutch reclaiming their land from the sea, what it had taken to pump out all that sea water and keep it out.
They visited a working wooden windmill from that early era, one of the thousands that families lived in and maintained as part of their daily lives.
That thing needed greasing or waxing (I forget which) twice a day, a big job all in itself. And it still made a constant huge noise befitting it's size, creaking and groaning as it flexed under the loads imposed by the wind.
I think it's a safe bet that no one lived in one of them by choice.
No need to grow our own methane when we have you. ;-)
Whoo Whee... I'm tearing-up and holding my sides I hurt so bad!!! Good one!! ;>)
~Bill
Edited 4/29/2008 7:05 pm ET by BilljustBill
> There's one windmill "farm" in Southern California which makes perfect sense to me. It's in a pass between two ranges of mountains in a desert area, between San Bernardino and Palm Springs, ....
I've seen that one from the 10 freeway. I think it decorates the buttugly desert, and gives us something interesting to look at for a change -- especially since there's actually something moving.
-- J.S.
"Growing and canning our own food for example, as my grandfather did with his Victory Garden during and after World War II, next to the railroad tracks on the near north side of Chicago"
The city of Paris was a net exporter of food as late as 1850.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i saw some big ones almost exactly 20 years ago, this summer.
somewhere between San Francisco and YosemiteI found them SPECTACULAR--and not at all disfiguring
( BTW-- wife and I were heading towards a back packing trip----and thought it was one of the coolest things we saw--including yosemite.
stephen
Let me know if you still find them beautiful and spectacular, if and when they predominate the skyline.
Positive first impressions often fade after they've taken over the landscape. Oil well pumps were fascinating at first, in much the same way, rocking up and down to their own rythym.
The first post war housing developments caused many people to feel something similar, their precisely measured lots beating out another kind of rythym as they took over mile upon mile of suburban land.
It's still repeating itself today,
hypnotically some would say.
Do you hear it?
Edited 5/2/2008 9:42 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I belong to the Friends of the BR Parkway, and I believe the association was fighting these in scenic areas. A single one can be beautiful - most I've seen have great a sculptural quality. But whole vistas of these things over my beloved mountains??!! Gotta be a better way.
BTW, my first experience with one of these was an encounter with a single unit. I don't remember where it was now, but after driving along through beautiful scenery I rounded a hairpin turn and found one of these suckers with the upper section at about my eye level.
Scared the absolute bejeebers out of me until I realized what it was! Almost jerked the car off the road.
I met a guy who built his own, from the blades to the generator. Yeesh.
Yes. There is a company that specializes in that sort of thing. I can't quite recall the name...Common goods or uncommon goods or something like that???? I think in California
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
>>Yes. There is a company that specializes in that sort of thing. I can't quite recall the name...Common goods or uncommon goods or something like that???? I think in California
RealGoods.
http://www.gaiam.com/realgoods/
http://www.skystreamenergy.com/skystream/
You need a minimum amount of reliable wind speed for the system to be practical. Photovoltaics are not cost prohibitive!
I have found there is very little Green energy expertise on this forum. There are better forums out there.
Photovoltaics are not cost prohibitive!
Depends on how you define that, the time to recoup the investment, and on the weather pattern.
I live in an area of New York State where only one day in three is sunny during the winter months. That's the reason I want to learn more about other possible ways to generate electricity.
It may be that my best bet would be a wood-fired steam turbine generator for winter months. Got an affordable one of those up your sleeve? ;-)
Edited 4/29/2008 5:56 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I'm told that a significant part of home energy use is put into heating water. SOlar water heaters are significantly cheaper that pv electric. Often it is suggested that the best place to start with alternative energy is with water heating and the better return on your investment. For some reason pv is the sexy/ hip item that gets all the attention.
BAsic models can be homemade with found parts, however in less sunny areas like yours the fancy new models are supposed to work very well and be worth the higher cost.
That's a very good point. After calculating the amount of energy needed to heat a super-insulated home it becomes evident that heating domestic water is going to be the big energy draw.
One idea I've been kicking around is using solar collectors to preheat large amounts of water to the desired inside air temperature of the home, storing the water in a plastic tank, say one thousand gallons, connected to the water heater and placed over a drain to deal with condensation.
This would make it possible to take full advantage of the limited sunlight during winter months.
The stored water would also act as as up to four tons of thermal mass, the temperature of which could potentially be manipulated to some advantage.
It's not a great help, raising well water from 55 degrees to 70 degrees but it would save about 25% on the water heating bill, if my math is correct.
The other potential benefit is in heating and cooling a super-insulated house by modifying the temperature of the water in the tank. Might work well enough to want to place tanks in the center of each floor of the house, let them radiate or absorb heat energy.
BTW, plastic water tanks are pretty inexpensive. Also obviously lightweight, making them easy to install.
Edited 5/1/2008 11:44 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
One idea I've been kicking around is using solar collectors to preheat large amounts of water to the desired inside air temperature of the home, storing the water in a plastic tank, say one thousand gallons, connected to the water heater and placed over a drain to deal with condensation.
Or if you can get VATOM's attention, he could start talking about his PAHS houses. Where you're storing up most of your heat from summer for winter.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
tate....
here's some interesting reading on nuclearhttp://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/nuclear-faq.html
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I need a more comfortable chair for all that. Do they mention waste?
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Thanks for that link Mike. I read most of it and discovered that I've been missing a lot of significant, objective information on that subject for many years.
I spent a few weeks, last year, going over the PAHS concepts and practices with VATom, here on BT.
I might consider building a PAHS home on another site, at another time. But I'll need to sell my next home at a good profit, after a few years, so it has to be very marketable.
After due consideration and then some, I've settled on a wood framed, super-insulated design as the most efficient, most responsible, most profitable and most marketable type of home for the near future.
Super insulated is really the best bang for the buck. It can still look like a normal house (and sell like a normal house). It doesn't have a special system that has to be maintained or replaced. No high tech gear to malfunction. And often it doesn't cost nearly as much as an alternative energy setup would.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
badarse
Water freezes an causes all sorts of problems up on a roof.. Photo voltaics can be used to charge deep cycle batterys and then run invertors producing 110 volts.. If there is a failure you don't compound the problem with frozen water on your roof in the dead of the winter..
Yes but in those climates the units either use glycol and a heat exchanger or have drain back devices that protect from freezing. I'm not an expert but I've seen solar water heaters in cold climates.
badarse.
Not anything that works long term.. Imagine the North pole. The winters are six months of little daylite so even on the few cloudless days the exposure to sunlite isn't enough to warm up water any apprecable amount.. remember it gets to 40 below in this state regularly.. Pretty hard to take a shower with water exposed to those sorts of temps.. even if the sun did shine for 4 hours! (especially if there is 18 inches of snow covering the roof)
Google "vertical wind turbine residential" lots of them out there.
Try this company for openers. buic
http://www.windterra.com/
BUIC, Thanks for the link. Sounds promising though they seem a bit shy about showing the product or putting a price on it.
They claim to have solved several problems relating to turbulence and the need for height above surrounding objects. So if the price is OK and they can demonstrate their claims, I'd be interested.
Here's a link to a web site for purchasing a Windterra VAWT wind turbine:
http://www.yourgreenamerica.com/
$7500
edit: Payback: Avg. annual wind speed 12 mph = annual savings of $386 @ $.20/kwh
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
Edited 4/29/2008 10:37 pm ET by BryanKlakamp
"$7500"
"edit: Payback: Avg. annual wind speed 12 mph = annual savings of $386 @ $.20/kwh"So break-even, if no maintenance or repairs are ever needed, comes in just under 20 years! Where do I sign up?Maybe we could mount one in each legislator's office and become totally energy independent. :)
BruceT
edit: Payback: Avg. annual wind speed 12 mph = annual savings of $386 @ $.20/kwh
That doesn't include the annual service call plus any attrition of parts. Not a very rosey picture unless you live in a place where winds above 15mph are pretty constant.
I guess I'll wait until someone comes up with a better solution. I'm planning on building a super-insulated home so I should be able to reduce my contribution to global warming pretty effectively, in that regard anyway.
Yeah.The guy I knew who built his: he lives on a farm that was never connected to the grid in the first place! For whatever reason, the original farmhouse was situated almost a kilometer away from the road.The current owners bought the place, and investigated hooking up to the grid. Between the cost of the wires, poles, and transformer, it would have cost as much as a set of photovoltaics and batteries. So that's exactly what they did.They have a super-insulated fridge, and pay careful attention to their energy management, and get along just fine, even in winter. I really thought we were too far north for solar power to be effective in winter.These people also grow their own food and raise pigs. I think you'd love the way they live.
Sounds like a great, self sufficient couple. I'd like to be off the grid...in more ways than one.
So if the windspeed is five and the price of a KW is .15, how does that work out?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You do the math!
The chart also showed that if the wind speed was a constant 24 mph, the output of one windmill would be about 60% of an avg households electrical usage.
Still, payback would be in years.
They were trying to tug on your greenside on the website. So what if the payback was many years. Just think of the impact on the environment.
I'm with Hudson, superinsulate and reduce our usage of energy. Maybe when wind power becomes more affordable, that could be a viable option.
Now, if I only had lots of money to spend."Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
> The chart also showed that if the wind speed was a constant 24 mph, ....
I sure wouldn't want to live there. If the wind speed was a constant 24 mph, whatever you saved on electricity would be more than offset by what you'd lose on hats. ;-)
-- J.S.
You won't find a blade that will rotate at 5 mph. Not enuff energy in the wind.
Almost 30 years ago, I got tied up with a guy whom started a windmill company based upon an exotic turbine design and it's patents. The company should have never opened in the first place, but I got took in as VP & GM. Spent the next three years looking for capital. Never happened.
But what an education in business and wind turbines! Bottomline, there's a huge market for a reasonably priced, well built and functional wind turbine. Back in '81, I saw a govt report that estimated the residential market (in 1978) as $32 billion. It ain't being touched.
No one is willing to invest the developmental capital to get that "reasonably priced, well built & functional wind turbine" to market.
But I notice the foriegn companies are moving in on our turf in this area. A big windmill blade company is just opening NE of Denver - expanded even beore it was opened. The Norwegians or Spanish are behind it.
I know that. I was making a point with a rhetorical Q. how many places have AVERAGE 12MPH wind or twenty cent KWHR sparks? If the site was offering that example up as typical payback, they wer guilty of misleading people, just like if a financial advisor were to make a leading statement like, "Now if we can get you into a fund that pays 14.3% per year and do it in a way that avoids income taxes for the next twenty years, for example..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Gotta do a wind study first.
That's a new and upcoming field - wind engineering.
A local town just north of here (CherryValley) just went
through several years of back and forth over turbines.
It would have been a large project, somewhere around a hundred
turbines. Located on two ridges flanking the town. So height of
the towers plus a couple of hundred feet of hill. At first I thought, well we all need to be open to alternative
solutions. No one wants it in their back yard, but maybe it's
time to look beyond that ( granted it wasn't in my yard). Well as the war continued, it became apparent that this wasn't
about "Green" energy at all. The power would have been for New Jersey! Not one watt would have been available to the town. They would get 50 grand or so a year. And the coastal communities that would use the power had voted down
a proposal to put the turbines off their shore.
Not in their backyard.
Isn't that amazing! The people in NJ want the wind power but won't stand for it where they live. Kind of like the big debate on Cape Cod.
Kennedy et. all. don't want their view spoiled by windmills, but they don't want to allow drilling in parks etc. either.
Someday the NIMBY folks are going to have to see how stupid they are.
On a personal note, have you seen the windmills of rt20 in Madison county?
Yeah I've seen the ones on 20.
To me those aren't bad. Kind of off on there own, and not to
many of them.
edit: Payback: Avg. annual wind speed 12 mph = annual savings of $386 @ $.20/kwh
Is that before or after the utility, state, and federal grants/rebates? If you're ina good wind area and have reasonable state/utility grants, you can make wind viable (assuming low maint costs).
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Don't know the answer to your question. Was just sharing info from the web site.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
When I looked up the viability of PV's for my employer, we were about 1 grant away from making it possible. But without that grant, it was potentiall 25-30 year payback, and that is waaaay too long. By that time you're equipment will start to malfunction and it will never pay for itself.
So either need one more grant, or we need to improve the manufacturing of the PV's so that the price comes down. If energy prices stay high, maybe option 2 will come about.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
On topic, last night on the Science channel was a program on alternative energy; the segment I found fascinating was the helical wind turbines that have been placed on some high rises in Chicago and are used to supply power to the buildings on which they're mounted.The claims are that they're quiet, efficient, relatively low RPM, not affected by turbulence or gusting....visibly low-profile.Some of those shown in operation were in cages to protect wildlife.Because they're in limited production, there was no mention of cost/benefit....but they looked promising.I am an Animal
http://www.sunelco.com
This guy has been in Montana supplying that kind of st;uff for a while. Don't know him but he is a friend of a friend.
There are small vertical ones also. I like the idea of the vertical ones. I think they do better in lower wind conditions. http://www.quietrevolution.co.uk/products_in_development.htm
Edited 5/1/2008 10:05 pm ET by popawheelie
Thanks for that link. I like the basic design idea too.
;>) I was wonder if I listed a question about Corn power, how two guys "one up each other", Ag. in California, and sprinkle some twisted facts in the mix, could I get answers about small companies that make good Wind Generation equipment? ;>)
I've found small home wind plants have to have a fall radius, should have a tower that tilts down for mantenance and repairs, and aren't looked on with a positive attitude by electric companies here in Texas.
I had a 1.8 Kw Enertech, made in Norwich, Vt., up 51' back in 1980. My electric Co-op put in their meter with what they called "Detense". It lock the meter so it ran only when it sold power. They made me buy and put in another meter with backward "Detense",so mine only turned when the 14' rotor generator made enough for the house and then any sold back to the Co-op at less than half their selling rate. The Co-op also made me carry $300,000 liability insurance policy "in case the generator back-fed into their grid and electrocuted one of their employees...
50' looking down is MUCH further than 50' looking up; especially when you are standing on small climbing pegs with a safety belt.
Too many moving parts, too many complications if it falls or struck by lightening, too much of everything to keep it going. Unless it was given to you and you wanted to tinker with it because it was you hobby, even then I don't think you would make that big a difference while tied to the grid. A stand alone DC wind generator and banks of deep cycle batteries is better than nothing if no electric grid is close by.
Sorry for the sad facts. I really really wish wind power was realistic.
Bill
Edited 5/2/2008 10:16 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 5/2/2008 10:19 pm ET by BilljustBill
Thanks for posting the only real experience offered so far. Having seen many, many water pumping windmills in disrepair over the last sixty years, I'm not surprised by the practical side of your story.
Looks like it's wait and see regarding the current and future progress of small scale generating methods. One things for sure, there's bound to be more rapid improvement in all those endeavors, now that the demand is increasing and the fuels are rising rapidly in price. Fortunately we have more advanced technology to assist us.
BilljustBill
To a fair amount of us using, working with and maintaining a wind generator would be interestesting and provide us with pleasure all out of proportion with the return.
If I had a decent wind source I'd hook mine up to a deep cycle battery system and store my surplus energy. That way when the wind went on vacation I could go for days using storage power..
Yes such a system would add another $6,000 to $10,000 depending on how much reserve capacity I wanted.. On the other hand I've seen such deep cycle systems work for decades before the batteries are irrepairably sulfated and require replacement.. replacement with trade in would run between $3500 and $5000
To a fair amount of us using, working with and maintaining a wind generator would be interestesting and provide us with pleasure all out of proportion with the return.
If I had a decent wind source I'd hook mine up to a deep cycle battery system and store my surplus energy. That way when the wind went on vacation I could go for days using storage power..
Frenchy,
What brand of wind generator do you have? Does it make A/C current that directly backfeeds excess power to the grid?
If I can find them, I took pictures of the Enertech installation in the summer of 1980. Just a few yards away is a 30' wooden 4-legged tower I built where I installed the antique 8' metal tower that came with a working 6 volt Wincharger. The voltage went to a set of golfcart batteries I got from a friend. From the batteries, I was using an old metal cased vibrator-type inverter rated at 80 watts. For lighting, in my Mont. Wards 14'x21' lawn building at the back of the lot, the batteries and inverter ran an 80 watt double tube florescent light fixture.
Quite a stark comparison between the two technologies doing the same thing.
I'd like to hear more from those that are currently using windpower just to know what improvements have been made, and how's it's working for them.
Bill
BilljustBill,
I don't have one. My experiance comes from a old hippie buddy of mine who uses a Jacobs wind electric generator he bought salvage. His is really too small to be considered modern. dating from sometime in the 1940's I think it's 12 volts.
However he uses three ex forklift batteries as his storage device. and a inverter purchased from a wrecked motorhome 6000watts. His system is set up so that he's capable of using either his minihydro, wind or solar power as primary power. However any source will power all three batteries. All three sources have large diodes protecting them from feed back so nothing will drain if not generating.. When the batteries get too low, it trips a unit to start his standby diesel generator . (cooking oil powered).
His switching he created himself with a combination of Radio Shack stuff and hardware store stuff..
The unit is mounted on a rather short 45 foot tower that was bought surplus at a farm auction . it had been used to power a water pump and estimates make it well over 100 years old.. The short height isn't an issue since he's on a bluff overlooking the Mississippi river and the tower is above the tree line in the area..
Maintinance on the generator consists of annual climbing the tower and checking the brushes (still available) greasing everything, checking that all of the bolts etc. are tight and still in place.. if any rivet in the tower has loosened up he chisels it off and replaces it with a bolt.
The batteries get annual flushing of all acid (to remove lead sufite build up which is what eventually kills all storage batteries. He recycles the acid after letting it sit in a large glass bowl over night which allows the last of the lead sulfite to settle out and adds fresh water and acid to maintain proper levels..
With three batteries he can pull one at a time out and refresh it without serious degrading of household needs..
He's completely off the grid. It cost him less to do all three things (wind solar and mini hydro) than the cost of powerlines alone would have plus he has never paid an electric bill.
I would say based on watching him do it He spends about 8 hours a year in maintinace and I'd guess maybe another three hours a year doing repairs..
His pond which is feed by a small creek is also his primary protien source so he cannot drain that too low during the dry portion of the summer he shuts off the mini hydro completely. It does the lions share of power generation in the spring and fall during the rainy season.. Solar is more of a get your feet wet thing than any serious power generation..
Whenever he needs to weld or do some really heavy electical work the standby generator is fired up. It's a decades old Chineese diesel that sorta looks like one of those old John Deere Johnny poppers. That runs on cooking oil salvaged from several local sources. About twice a month he makes an oil run and collects usually another 2 or 300 gallons of cooking oil. He has a simple filter system which removes the food debris and that's collected for a farmer buddy plus a final filter through a Napa Oil filter which removes the smallest pieces The $8.00 he pays for the filter every month is his only cost..
He works at a nearby furniture factory, mainly for the benefits, he's pretty much figured out how to live without money..
The mini Hydro is a simple impeller driving an alternator. The solar panels have just enough output to to provide a topping off charge if nothing else is draining..
Edited 5/3/2008 2:29 pm ET by frenchy
Thanks, Frenchy. Your friend sounds much like the farmers in the 1930's and 1940's.
How old a fellow is he?
If we, as Americans, do go into to another Depression, your friend is certainly ahead most of the citizens in this country.
Bill
BillJustBill,
He's my age, We served together in Vietnam and he had a really rough time adjusting once we got back.. Drugs, doing some real self destructive stuff, drinking, etc.. Finally he worked for a trucking company as a manager of a Depot near Bakerfield Calfornia. Married a local gal who didn't appreciate him.. (she ran off with a highway patrol cop) The same day he was told to shut down the depot and fire all the employees. Everybody got their final check except him (they told him they were giving him another weeks pay to close everything down)..
He never got his final check and since his wife had cleaned out his account he was forced to really scamble. He took an old company diesel pickup , loaded it with barrels of diesel fuel and attempted to drive to a job in Wisconsin. The truck broke down in a snow storm and he was forced to seek shelter in an abandoned farm house on the day his interview was set for.
Eventually he survived the winter living off canned goods stored in the basement and doing odd jobs locally.. Come spring and he'd decided to live there and put a claim on the property. Since then he's lived pretty much by his wits. His new wife is a school teacher and he had three kids who all attended Ivy league schols. Really remarkable guy. Extremely standoffish, won't say three words to a stranger.. But a real self made type person.. Degree from Harvard, but works as a farmer. Shop labourer. I doubt even the company he works for knows about his background.. (still has the pickup)
I thought that the old wind generators where 24 volts.And they used 24 volt lights and appliances.12 and 24 volt edison based bulbs are still avaialbe for RV's and marine use.And I think that places like Real Goods might have 24 volt mixers and the like.Although the losses aren't as bad as they used to be direct appliacnes are much more eff than an inverter and using 120 v appliances..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
The first generators were marketed to power those old "big cabinet model, what sits in the middle of the floor radios", and they were 6 volts. The prop (rotor) was one piece and about six feet long. The governor on the old ones was a swivel that allowed the over driven generator/blade assembly to tilt upward causing it to drag down the speed. The next version had clam-shells with springs. When the centrifugal force increased with the prop speed, they suddenly kicked outward which dragged and scattered the wind in front of the rotor.
I have most all the parts to an old 32 v Wincharger, but not the blade. It's so much bigger and had an fibergear running inside an oilbath gearbox that jumped the 32v generator's speed about 4-to-1. I don't have the blade, but it was also a single board about 12' long. It has a super-sized version of the old clamshell governor that operated with the centrifugal force. I'm told that when it deployed, the sound was loud and scary.
Wincharger made 12v, 24v, 32v, and I think you can still buy a 48v model. The higher the voltage meant you could keep the wire size of the down or increase the distance between the generator and batteries.
Bill
"My electric Co-op put in their meter with what they called "Detense". It lock the meter so it ran only when it sold power. They made me buy and put in another meter with backward "Detense",so mine only turned when the 14' rotor generator made enough for the house and then any sold back to the Co-op at less than half their selling rate. "EXAACTLY as it should be.Net metering is a rip off for the other electrical users..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
EXAACTLY as it should be.
Bill,
I do agree with you, but that's NOT how Home Wind Power is being marketed. Even the newscast's intro to a story said, "The wind spins your electric meter backwards...."
The seeming "fight" with the electric company with their insurance requirements and the charges of monthly billing with LOW rates paid for KWHours, Wind Power isn't that much of a "Silver Bullet"..
Bill
Hi,
The first question to answer on whether a wind generator makes any sense at all for you is do you you have enough wind? Most places don't.
Have a look at the "Got Wind?" stuff here:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Wind/wind.htm
You can look at the wind maps for your state and see if there is any hope where you live.
Energy content in the wind goes up with the cube of wind speed, so 10 mph winds have only about half the energy of 12 mph winds.
Windmills in urban areas tend to draw a lot of flack, and there can be genuine noise issues. The Skystream is pretty well adapted to urban settings, bun not inexpensive.
Most people can spend a few hundred dollars on efficiency improvements (appliances, lights, phantom loads, ...) and get as much energy saving as a $10,000 wind or PV system.
These are the projects we used to cut or electric use in half:
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Half/ProjectsConservation.htm
Total cost about $1200.
Gary
GaryGary,
I've done the research trying to justify one. Based on my micro climate I'm not even looking for payback I'm looking for basic use.. Over one six month period the wind at my roof peak (which is only two feet below what the city will let me build to) was strong enough 61 hours to generate at all and less than 14 hours was the wind strong enough to produce at peak.. I'm too well shielded here.
Solar is similar. My yard is too well shaded by large trees to ever produce enough electricity to even run an alarm clock. I bought a solar unit to keep the battery in my race car trailer charged, ..... the battery died.
Since wind power was the main thought of H.V. Carpenter's post, take a look down in the Business listing for leases....104238.1
Ought to be a big eyeopener for when big wind power companies come smearing their words with $$ dollar signs and wanting to lease your property for $1 an acre, then grabbing and controlling the surface rights for 29 years for only $130 a year.
Bill :>(
Edited 5/5/2008 9:53 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 5/5/2008 9:55 pm ET by BilljustBill
Wonder if GWA might get this mail notification to stop in and give us his most recent evaluation of wind turbines seeing it's been a few years since his last discussion on their merit.
GWA found himself amidst quite a number of them shortly after he'd bought country land for his scenic view and home.
55347.1
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Click here to visit the beginning of Breaktime
Here's a new BIWP product that might be just what you asked for.
http://www.greendaily.com/2008/05/09/swift-the-quiet-little-wind-turbine-that-could/
Designed to run at 35dB which is quieter than a whisper.
Course the price is a bit steep at $10,000
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"Course the price is a bit steep at $10,000"My electric bill is about $50 per month, so saving 20% with a $10,000 turbine should break even for me, assuming no service or repair expenses, in just 1,000 months - that's 83.333 years. Where do I sign up? :)BruceT
brucet9
That short sighted view of energy is exactly why America is starting to lag behind much of the rest of the world.. I call it cost accounting mentality. Cost accounting is unable to take a look at the long term benefits. Making short term cost cutting a priority over future value because it's simple second grade math. Long term requires vision and a focus on the future. The hard headed businessman wins over the dreamer. Yet it is the dreamer who achieves greatness the hardheaded busineesman is nothing more than aledger entry..
Your calculation makes two flawed assumptions.
1 that the cost of energy will remain the same,
2 that it will always be available
Inflation will make the traditonal $50.00 energy bill blossum. I recall my father ranting about a $7.00 electric bill, traditionally it had been closer to $3.50.
You can expect within the next decade that energy bill to get to $200 or more.. (with teenage children even higher!)
There is considerable energy loss in transmission of power over distance.. that inefficency will make the network vulnerable when on site power does achieve par.. Considering the massive investment in quipment and maintinace required to provide power over individual on site power sources there will be a turn around point at some point in the future.. When it does the power companies will cut costs however they can to remain profitable.. that means maintinace will be neglected..
Your points are all and good. But I believe he's referring to something else.
That turbine is too small to make a difference. What is it? 4', 5'? That's a toy. Even I think 10 grand for a toy is not reasonable. (Unless you can ride it or use it to pick up chicks.)
peteshlagor.
I'm very pleased to hear you say that.. First to answer your statement.. I did assume it was enough of a generator to meet his needs. If not then I was wrong and I'm sorry..
Second I'm wondering if based on this statement and your previous about using tax as a means of reducing consumption of oil we aren't closer than I've believed in the past..
What I disagree with most conservatives about is being progressive about the future.. Not just simple mantra about cut costs cut government and cut waste. But honest long term solid thinking based plans..
Anything that is as large as the government is going to have waste.. we can't eliminate that waste by cutting it into smaller pieces. It makes the individual numbers smaller but the total remains the same.
Cutting costs can be a foolish move. Mercedes Benz didn't become the premier auto manufacturer by cutting costs. Cadillac lost it's prememanence because of cost cutting measures. It's now percieved as an optioned up Chevy rather than something special to aspire to.
Mercedes focused on engineering and was willing to do whatever was required to develope superior engineering.. (I can give you hundreds of examples if you wish) General Motors focused on cost cutting as a way towards profits and was passed by many as she slowly lost market share and then became unprofitable..
I use cars becuase that takes the sting out of discussing specific politics which party loyalty might not allow any flexibility..
I guess you have finally given us the reason people are liberal or progressive as you say.
Flexibility in not an asset in core beliefs frenchy!
Flexibility in not an asset in core beliefs frenchy! Now, I have no idea what context that came from but
That has got to be one of the most ill thought out philosophies ever.
why is that?
Frenchy had something in a post about the inflexibility of a certain pol. party.
Like I said, I've no idea of the contexts. But the idea that you should be inflexible in you core beliefs on any
topic leaves you excluded from any learning. Or even knew perspectives.
It's basically saying your closed minded.
Take it from another angle, Are your beliefs that fragile that you can't risk questioning them? Of course not you in particular, The universal "you".
Not to disagree with you, but, if you don't have core beliefs, then anything can be rationalized.
Close minded, no, I have my beliefs and will listen to others, but somethings I can't be talked into changeing. ie. murder, stealing, rape, sex with minors etc.
Now if that is close minded, so be it.
Frammer52
OK let's do the classic test..
It's 1938 you have a loaded pistol and Adolf Hitler is standing in front of you. You can murder him and get away safely.
Do you commit murder?
no
frammer 52
so roughly 50 million people need to die?
your question was worded wrong if you want to answer yes.
Knowing now what I know now I would be tempted!
Frammer52
You only had to follow his career up to that point to know that Adolf Hilter is evil.. He'd committed murder and mass killings by this time well outside of the law and only because of his power and the support of the brown shirts.. was he able to survive.. the deaths of millions was a little ways away but look at those he'd already killed for your justification to take his life.
What is your point, would I commit murder?
End justifies the means?
I don't know if I could.
Frammer52
Adolf Hitler at that point had clearly killed or ordered killed thousands. No court in his country would hold him accountable yet you would refrain from taking his life for what reason? He hadn't been tried and convicted?
I can see such a position if you believe deeply in the sanctity of life.. that only god can create life therefore only God can take life. Are you Amish or another religon that holds such beliefs?
Or do you believe the death penalty where the standard of conviction is beyond a reasonable doubt is valid? If the later I fail to understand your position (even without the advantage of foresight)
OK, let's try you belief even further.
Same situation 2 years later?
My religiose beliefs do play a part.
I have a hard time with the death penalty, even though there are some crimes ie. ok bombing that even I have a hard time not wanting a death penalty. I believe that solitary confinement for the rest of there lives would be a more appropriate penalty.
If you are talking about Adolph, if I was not a part of the armed forces I would not kill. Even then killing another human, I don't know if I could.
Frammer52
Interesting, I could point out the conflict with those views and the position your party has taken on the subject..
I won't, I'll respect your views (which align with mine)..
However I believe that in rare occasions a man must act as his conscience dictates.
We put Some of Adolf Hilter's leading generals to death for obeying orders. We demanded a higher level of humanity.
For example If I had a chance to capture Osama Bin Lauding I would do so However if killing him was the only option I believe there is sufficent evidence that I would not feel guilty taking his life..
That's rare for me.
Following Vietnam I decided to devote my life to peaceful existance. Too many nights I wake up with nightmares of those I sent to their death because they were smuggling arms to South Vietnam..
It's not nice and neat.. when you call in a strike on a sampam they don't just kill the man they kill everyone on board.. that makes me a baby killer, a mother killer, etc..
I can hide behind my orders, I can hide behind the fact that maybe I was saving lives in South Vietnam. But just like the cop that legitimately shoots a criminal I won't go through life unpunished for my deeds.. Then when I'm standing before God I'll have to pay the price for that.
When I was younger I used to believe in the death penalty, but as I got older I realized that it was inconsistant with my religious beliefs. Also I realized how easy it is to convict an innocent person.
I understand your view on killing. It is easy to kill in war, harder to live with oneself after.
I know it is inconsistant with some in my political party, but they reflect more of my views of the worrld than the other.
Frammer52
I understand being at odds with some of the planks of a politivcal party.
'
For example some of my party aren't violently opposed to gun ownership while others are.. In addition while I believe deeply in the sancity of life I understand there are circumstances which a woman could legitimately need to choose to terminate a fetus..
I am in line with Clinton on this subject.. it should be a rare event not as causually choosen as it is today. But it should be safe and legal not done in a back alley as it was before it became legal..
To get to that point we must take it from the rehlm of politics. Republicans had a chance to eliminate partial birth abortion well over a decade ago but choose for political reasons to prolong the practice.
To give you an idea of how they are dragging their feet on the subject they were in absolute power for 6 years and did not pass a bill outlawing abortion.
Ever ask yourself why not?
the absolute power didn't extend to the senate where if you didn't have 60 votes nothing was done.
I have an exteem dim view of the dems position on abortion. Personally I belive that this should be reviewed. I could live with the outlaw except for rape and incest.
Frammer52
IF you look back at the Clinton presidency he offered to meet the republicans on several issues including partial birth abortion.. excepting rape, incest, and life of the mother. He's a southern babtist and doesn't like abortion either.
The republicans needed the issue for political purposes and refused to compromise. well the rest is history.
That 60 vote hurdle wasn't a problem getting lots of legislation passed.. why do you think it became such a problem when it came to abortion?
Prior to Roe-v-Wade abortion was illegal in America but hundreds odf thousands if not millions were done by friendly doctors as ordinary D&C's and simply quietly hushed up.. Those who didn't have access to friendly doctors had them done via other ways some of which weren't safe or even effective. Back alley abortions.
The problem isn't should abortion be illegal or not.. The problem is how can we enourage women to carry to term rather than abort. That is not a political question and shouldn't be used for that reason..
There are countless parents waiting to adopt. When we went through the adoption process there were 105 sets of parents waiting to adopt at one meeting I attended.. This was after prescreening and finding us suitable as parents. The head of the agency stood up and told us that we should look to our left and look to our right. If we got a child those parents wouldn't.
He also said that there would be two gerber baby's adopted in this room. The rest of us would have to accept special needs baby's or foriegn baby's (mainly Korean at that time) or adopt older children..
less than a month prior to our getting a gerber baby we found my wife pregnant! In spite of the doctor saying it couldn't happen..
So we allowed another parent to adopt even though our baby was "paid for" and we'd get no refund.
MY point is that we need to find a way to encourage mothers to take the risks involved with childbirth and bring baby's to term rather than sit back shake our heads and condemn them for conduct we've all likely engaged in.
I'm thinking way outside the box here.. trail ballons only.. perhaps provide scholarships for college or other advanced training upon giving a chiild up for adoption..
Put mothers who adopt their babies up at a luxury resort for a month or worst case allow a mother the right to "sell" her baby prior to it's birth on the open market..
We should do things for mothers who choose to keep their baby in spite of problems.. I'm thinking a adopt a grandparent type approach.
Any couple or group, say a church choir could adopt a grandchild and share the expenses of diapers, daycare, and education etc.. make it legal so that people don't tire of their obligation and leave the mother stranded.
That approach combines the best of the it takes a village approach with the self reliant responsibity approach of the your party..
Just like Only Nixon could go to China Only a democrat will be able to make any real inroads on the subject of abortion. As Hillary loses her grip on the election there goes any real chance for the foreseeable future..
I thought that when Clinton was prse. the dem. party leadership had there dem. senators stick to the party line, therefore the need for the super majority?
frammer 52
Clinton lost the majority vote becuase he raised taxes. (Mid first term)
Voters do not understand that bills have to be paid and it doesn't matter who's party ran up the bills.. They voted out Bush for raising taxes just like they they voted out democrat congress. .
Aside from that the first two years of his presidency were very tough.. Clinton wanted to hold the line on spending and fought with a lot of his party doing so.
What I in my little mind don't understand is that the american people have turned 2 congress out because of budget problems, why can't our elected officials understand,we don't want higher taxes, therefore cut the budget!
frammer52
I wish it were that simple..It's like you married a woman with bills.. You'd like the bills to go away but you're in love with the woman..
Generations before us haven't paid all their bills and they keep pilling up. To deal with it we use inflation to keep the numbers within reason.. That works as long as you don't save money.. Those who do watch the value of their savings shrink in purchasing power.
Remember frenchy, the savings rate does not take into account the IRA, 401k etc.
The actual savings rate is higher than is reported. Kind of like inflation rate not taking into account fuel and food.
shoot you and him and leave no witnesses....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You misunderstood.
It's not to say one shouldn't have core beliefs, but rather how one
comes to have them.
In order to have any valid belief one needs to take the time and energy to examine the issue. To question all the possibilities then and only then can one come to some sort of understanding.
In my mind that process inevitably continues throughout ones life.
This has nothing to do with debates or arguments. We are talking about
personal values and beliefs they rarely change on a dime, and if they have a sound basis shouldn't.
The key word here is "Beliefs" these are things that cannot be proven or dispelled. Things that not everyone can agree as to right or wrong.
Leaving one to have to make a decision or have faith.
By it's nature it requires flexibility and openness to change.
Lacking that-Blind Faith.
Not that I want to get between you to love birds but the rotor diameter of the supposedly quiet roof mountable turbine is 7'
I looked more closely at the specs and they are a joke! The power rating (if I did my conversions right) is for a wind speed of 30mph!! What a joke.
I wonder if there is a good reason for these small turbines to be so damn expensive? I think its just green gouging personally.
If these things were say 2 grand each and came grid inter-tie-able then everyone would have one.
Though I gotta say I can see these on top of all the tall buildings in downtown SF. Isnt it always windy up there?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Thanks, Frenchy, for letting me know that short-sighted guys like me are what's wrong with America.Nevertheless I shall leave it to visionary folks like you to buy a $10,000 windmill that even at your high estimates of electricity rate increases would take 40 years to break even, but has, according to its manufacturer's website, only a 20 year service life.BruceT
Brucet9
Is that the only wind mill available in the world? I wanted a house I couldn't afford I looked around, thought outside the box, learned a bit and built one myself..
I've seen used wind mills for far less than that price. I'm sure if I had enough wind present I could build one myself. Even if you aren't handy I'm willing to bet there are solutions that will work.
"Is that the only wind mill available in the world?"I don't know. I don't care. If you think they are so good, then you do the research and find one that makes sense, but don't criticize others for noticing that the one being discussed is way too expensive to be practical.If there were a practical residential windmill, I'm sure that Al Gore and Ed Begley Jr. [whom I greatly respect for practicing the green lifestyle that he preaches] would be touting it on every talk show in North America - and rightly so - but there isn't and they aren't. BruceT
brucet9
I've done the reaserch and I can either buy or build a windmill sufficent to be cost effective for a moderate means.
However there is no place on my property where I could install such a thing where it would achieve anything.. I'm too well sheltered except on the rare day.
My electric bill is about $50 per month, so saving 20% with a $10,000 turbine should break even for me, assuming no service or repair expenses, in just 1,000 months - that's 83.333 years. Where do I sign up? :)
Bruce, I know you were only halfway being serious, but if you're in a good wind area and live in CA, chances are that the turbine won't cost anywhere near $10k.
If the Federal renewable energy bill gets bumped for another year, you could qualify for a 30% tax CREDIT up to $2k for a residence or no cap for a business. So there is $2-3k off the price right there.
I know CA has very good rebates for PV, so it is possible they also have them for wind. Probably both state and utlity rebates. You might find that the $10k turbine only costs you $3-4k. And then when you factor in rising utility rates, maybe you're payback isn't so bad afterall (assuming good wind in your area).
[edit to add] I assume we're talking about a real turbine, not some 100 watt jobie.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Edited 5/12/2008 11:39 am by JohnT8
Thanks for the suggestion. I checked the link that somebody posted for government subsidies on windmills. In CA it looks like the minimum capacity for windmill subsidy is 30KW. That little Swift windmill puts out 1.5KW in 28mph wind velocity, according to their website.We don't get enough wind to make a turbine work here anyway except during the 20 days per year of Santa Ana winds. We usually have calm mornings and 5 to 10mph off-shore breezes in afternoons.BruceT
As someone has already mentioned, insulation is always a better buy for a homeowner. It is the gift that keeps on giving by lowering your utility bills. Not as sexy as a turbine or PV array, but much more practical.
I like the idea of the alternative energy grants. Maybe if they keep up long enough, someone will improve the manufacturing and make PV's and turbines more affordable for the average Joe. I can remember when microwave ovens were $4-600. Now you can get them for $50. If those $400 PV panels got down to $40, maybe we could all start taking advantage.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
I'm late to this parade, so maybe somone has already mentioned this, but you can look up rebates and such here:
http://www.dsireusa.org/
Just click on your state and see what is available.
A year or so back when I looked at PV and turbines, our state had OK PV rebates but pretty good turbine rebates. Problem is that we don't have enough wind. You need a nice windy spot to make it worthwhile (or at least a consistent 10-15mph wind).
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Thanks for that link.
If you are seriously considering this ... you should install data gathering equipment and start getting data. I think you need something like 10+ avg MPH wind speed to justify a wind turbine. LOTS of work being done in this area ... as is with PV. But just like PV, wind turbines depend on the weather and not every location is a good application. Specific placement on site can enhance the wind speed ... e.g. if you are near the crest of a hill, the wind speed will be greatest at the crest. But also taking advantage of other site element that may tend to 'funnel' the wind can be good. So ... location of your data equipment is as important as the location of the final product.