Hi
My wife and I are in the process of building a timberframe home in Oregon. We decided to use structural insulated panels (SIPs) for the outer wall framing since the combination of the timberframe and the SIPs seem like a “natural”. We looked at several SIP manufacturers and finally selected Insulspan as the company we would use. They seemed to have a good reputation, had national distribution and last but not least, This Old House used Insulspan on a major project and seemed quite happy with the product they received.
We entered into a contract with them in early September with a delivery date of 31 October. Our timberframe was erected during the week prior to the expected date of delivery. We were informed two days before the expected delivery date that because of production problems we would not get our panels for another three weeks. This has left our timberframe exposed to the weather and it has rained every day since the the frame was erected. Since we need to arrange for transportation of the SIPs from Insulspan to our job site we need a definite date when the SIPs will be ready to be picked. We were informed by the general manager of the production facility at Aldergrove BC that they would be completed on November 22nd and could be picked up on the 23rd.
I called and spoke with a sales rep yesterday to inform him that the final payment was on its way and would be there in time so he could release the panels to our driver. Much to my surprise, I was informed that the panels would not be ready on November 23rd but are now not expected to be ready for another two weeks, on about December 6th. I am not sure what would have happened if I had not called. I suspect our driver would have made a trip to BC for nothing. This additional delay may cause us to lose our driver and our framing contractor, among other things.
I cannot honestly speak as to the quality of Insulspan products but I can say that their customer support is abysmal. I would strongly urge anyone who is considering building with SIPs to avoid doing business with Insulspan until they can solve their production problems and do something about their customer support.
In case you are wondering, I have never before written to a public forum to complain about a company or its products.
Replies
Welcome to B.T.
Sorry to hear about your problems, but welcome to
the real world of constrction, scheduling conflicts.
Have they given you a reason for the delays
other than " production problems"?
Stick around and keep us updated, and do you have
any pictures of your timberframe?
If so share them here.
What they say is that they have had people leave and they they have been unable to hire and train replacements. The unemployment rate must be pretty low in BC, ay. I have enclosed a couple of pictures. It is actually prettier than it looks. Sort of like taking a picture of yourself the first thing in the morning. Thanks
Love that roofing material. Quite daring to use silver tarps, but I think it's working for you. Around Connecticut, blue is all the rage. <G>
Kidding aside, that's a nice looking frame. And it won't be all that long before you forget the hassles of building in the joy of living there.
Andy Engel
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Actually it isn't a tarp. It is a plastic waterproofing material that covers the roof decking before the SIPs on the roof go down. It takes the place of roofing felt. We are using nail base panels for the roof (think of a sandwich with only one slice of bread) because it didn't make sense to put down 2x6 decking and then have another layer of OSB on top of that. The SIP manufacturer says that the solvents in regular roofing felt if placed next to the foam will start to dissolve the foam with prolonged exposure which of course could lead to significant problems. I am including the other photo that I tried to send last time. I think it is a better view.
This house building is something else, I was cautioned that it can cause ulcers and divorces. Since both my wife and I can eat Thai food with impunity and our marriage survived learning to paddle a tandem canoe, we will survive this. Thanks for the encouragement.
Thanks for the lesson. I wasn't aware of that product.
Even the green curry? Hottest stuff I ever ate, and I like hot food, was green curry in a side street Thai restaraunt in Manhattan. My wife was having lots of fun watching the sweat pour off me..
AndyAndy Engel
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Insulspan is working on moving their production facility to a much bigger location, since they are very busy at this point. I live close by, and recently toured their facility. It seemed like they had everyone they could working on cutting and trimming out panels.
Hopefully they can nail down a delivery date. Would you mind updating with how this turns out? I'm looking to use their product in a couple years for a build and appreciate this kind of first hand info. The advantages of fast assembly of panels would quickly be offset by the downtime if you can't get them delivered!
I will be happy to post how this turns out, good or bad. I am angered by the repeated delays and even more annoyed because I seem to find out that there is a further delay almost by "accident". One time I was called and notified about a delay and the other times it has really been by happenstance that I found out at all. Really poor communication and a really strong feeling that no matter how important your project is to you, it is of minimal importance to them. They of course, don't like to talk to angry customers. They may be working hard to correct their problems but they certainly don't communicate it well if they are.
Thanks for sharing the pictures.That timber frame looks great.I wonder if you could send a email link to your sips manufactureof your initial post on this forum.Maybe that might help light a fire under their arse. This place gets a lot of traffic, posters and non posters
Their web site is http://www.insulspan.com and they have a "contact us" page on their web site for people requesting information about their products.
I am pleased you like the frame, there is a timber frame entryway on the front and a screen porch and deck that will go on the back. These elements can't be erected until the SIPs are up. The frame was done by a Oregon timber framer by the name of Lon Tyler (Lon Tyler Company) Lon is listed on the Timber Frame Guild web site
Sorry, I couldn't pass up the chance to give Lon a plug, I hope it isn't against forum rules. I also apologize for doing the proud father "wanna see my baby" thing. I just think that if we ever finish it, it is going to be a nice house, not fancy, just very "warm". Thanks for your encouragement.
Did you say you have already sent them payment?
Yup, they have been paid. They wanted 50% up front to start back in September and unfortunately I sent them the rest when I still thought we would be getting the SIPs today. It was only after the check was sent that I found out that there was going to be a further delay. Color me stupid, but I HATE it when you have to worry whether or not every business dealing you have is being done with a crook.
any chance of putting a stop payment on the check to get their attention? - best defense is a good offense - too bad you didn't use a credit card, would have given you a little more protection
Sorry, I couldn't pass up the chance to give Lon a plug, I hope it isn't against forum rulesThat is what this place is all about, so plug away,espically when you have good things to same about someone.I also apologize for doing the proud father "wanna see my baby" thing. I just think that if we ever finish it, it is going to be a nice house, not fancy, just very "warm". Thanks for your encouragement.No apology neccesary. Do keep us informed and when things start moving along post back in this same thread so we can keep up to date.There are plenty of threads in here with people doing the exact samething that your doing so do a search and I'll see if I can link to a couple good ones.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=53790.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=60276.1That ought to keep you reading for a while!
Edited 11/23/2005 2:08 pm ET by butch
We need to know this so that the customer service will improve. IMO, they should also be willing to offer some compensation such as a price break, free transportation to acknowledge that this was their problem and they want to make amends for the problems they are now causing yourself.
Sorry for your problems. I am no expert, but I hope your frame will be OK after the soaking. My bigger concern would be the decking if that is already in place.
I wonder if the TOH episodes were "too good" for business? Or, if availability of OSB is the problem due to the busy Hurricane season down South? In any case, that really stinks.
From reading on this site the postings of "pros in the business" and "home owners frustrated at non-responsive pros" I sometimes wonder if this is just the nature of a busy building market, too. I will never forget the post I read where a HO was looking for bids on a job. He was not getting calls returned, people he did talk to would not show up, etc. Granted - he may have been trying to get a rediculous number of bids or maybe he was a pr!ck on the phone - who knows. But he came here and asked "C'mon guys, is buisness really that good that you can treat customers like this?" The first response was, "Yep - business is that good right now . . ."
We are going to build a SIP home in Spring here in WI. We plan on using Heartland EPS in Fond du Lac, WI (R-Control brand, maybe? - they make them there so I am not sure if R-control is theirs or a licensed brand)
I, too, hope you can be compensated for your delays, but the fine print on something you signed somewhere probably expressly prevents that. Further, since you are an HO that will probably never need go back to Insulspan until you are ready for your next home, they know that if you are unhappy it really won't affect their business.
(Stinks to be the little guy - even when the little guy is still spending thousands, eh?)
Unless, of course, they realize that you've now posted this on "Breaktime" and how damaging that can be ;-)
Good Luck
This is the same situation I am in. My contractor poured our foundation and laid the decking down.
Our SIPs mfgr (Murus) quoted us a 3 week turn around time. I worked with them to get them what they needed for engineering drawings and cost estimation, then turned it over to my contractor for purchase and scheduling. Come to find out that the SIPs guy needed other info, more drawings, etc. So by the time we got engineering plans for approval, it is a week 'til Thanksgiving. Then it will be longer until shipment due to the holiday, blah blah blah...
I had started this way early to accommodate the SIPs guy, but now we have the OSB decking exposed to some rain and freezing cycles. This was after going through a half dozen mfgr, quickly eliminating those made me suspect due to customer service. You'd think an industry facing resistance from builders and ignorance from HO would be more attentive to this aspect of the business.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Hindsight is always 20/20!
Wouldn't it make more sense to make sure that all the necessary pieces of the puzzle were on site before erecting the timber frame?
Did the company which built the frame have any recommendations as to which SIP's they used?
I hope the rest of the project goes smoother.
Mike.
Yes, it would have been nice to have had the SIPs on site when the frame was erected. It would have cut down on crane hassles and would have speeded the whole process. The major problem with that is I do not have any place to store the SIPs on site that is dry. We are building in the Cascade foothills and it rains a lot here this time of year. I am concerned that leaving the SIPs exposed to the weather could have caused significant problems. We had planned for the frame erection and the SIP application to dovetail together with minimal time between the two. We had no indication that there were any problems with SIP production until 2-3 days before the expected delivery date. My builder found out there were problems from someone in the drafting/engineering department, when in a conversation about another matter, he was told that there were production problems and there was "no way" were we getting our SIPs on our contract delivery date.
If we had know there were problems a week before, our frame would still be stored at our timber framers shop. We would still have to deal with the problem of if you don't know for sure when the SIPs are going to arrive, when do you erect the frame?
Thanks for your suggestions and encouragement.
Edited 11/24/2005 9:04 am ET by buseag