Hi All,
I am talking with an architect about doing a project this summer using Structural Insulated Panels (SIPs). I have never used them, and neither has the architect, but we are both intrigued by what we have read on the subject.
My question is has anyone here used them and what is your opinion?
My lumber yard can order them, but the demand for residential use is not yet very high according to him. In fact he gave me his spec book and details to look over for a couple of days (like checking out a book at the library). It gives you an idea of how seldom they are used in residential here. And, he said they are “very expensive”, but that they go up real fast.
Some of my questions: answer the ones you can…
Does one need a crane or boom truck? I would imagine a 4×8 wall panel could be handled by a couple of guys on a ground floor, but second floors or roofs or even floor panels would need mechanical help of some kind.
running wiring and plumbing. the details in the spec book seem to indicate the need to drill acces holes every so often to run wires. then the foam and osb need to be replaces and foamed into place. is this right and if so, how labor intensive is that?
seismic hold downs. here in Seattle holddowns are spec’ed pretty often, sometimes pretty big. If straps are spec’ed, they could be fastened on the exterior easy enough. but if HD’s are needed in the wall cavity, how do you acces them to install them? do you have to cut and replace the osb again? if you do this too much it seems that you would compromise the structural integrity of the panel, one of the things they are supposed to excel at.
i’ll have more questions later, i’m sure, but just wantd to know from someone with more experience.
thanks
Replies
Check out SIPweb.com, alot of info about SIP construction.
There are probably only about a few thousand posts on SIPs at Breaktime. Do an Advanced Search (top left of your screen) on "SIPs" (in "containing all the words") and go down a couple of lines and enter "frenchy" in the Additional Criteria section From
Many other people have also chimed in on SIPs - such as post 38501.8
Sheesh, it used to be that just cutting and pasting the number of a post would make it active so that you could just click on it to bring it up. Oh well, perhaps pasting the full URL will work:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/main.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=38501.8&find=Search
Edited 3/11/2006 1:04 am ET by CaseyR
thanks,
i should have done the search. i'll go through what's there and chime back in if i have more questions.Brad
I would not do an SIP project without involving one of the SIP makers such as Insulspan right from the start.
Have you or your archy contacted them? Or someone like them? Shame on you if you have not.
You can probably get from the This Old House folks, taped segments of their recent project in which SIPs were used to do the central all new section of a very large remodel in Massachusetts.
A 7 BR 5 BA SIP house, done over a post and beam frame, was built very quickly and without incident right down the road from me last year. No cranes were needed, but they had a large telescopic all terrain forklift there from day one. You cannot do SIP with musclepower alone.
it's funny when these old threads pop back up again. for me, the project did not go through as planned. once we had the plans together and the specs ready, the SIPS did not pencil out very well. in fact, the whole project had to go back to the drawing board, where it still sits. there were many adjustments that had to be made and most did not involve the SIPS, they were just a small part of it. however, in researching SIPS, i would like the chance to try them in the future. but i got a wide range of responses on SIPS from many people. seems a lot of us are still learning the ropes on these things.
Sips My crew says never again. I am supervising a 2 1/2 story sip house the problems... the owner builder hired an achitec? to do their first design but couldnt afford the project then hired a young designer to do a scaled down house. when i started the plumbing was wrong and had to be replaced before the slab could be poured. 4k cost overrun. the guys doing the radiant heating didn't have a road map Home owner builder's fault and energy consultant said it was done wrong and is homeowner's fault. sips delivered in 3 semi loads and the roof panels were delivered before all the i st floor panels were on site not enough storage space. if left on street city can fine owner. 8 roof panels were made wrong 1 wall panel not on print or made. 2 secong story panels wrong. engineering and prints not enough dimensions to build we scaled the prints to keep busy and have to make changes later. first floors have 2 x 10 king studs and trimmers. and extra blocking added to walls for tie down straps not thermal efficient roof panels have TJ 's for a spline joint and they don't have a good fit to the panels have to spray in foam the biggest panel wer only 6 feet wide. I thought SIP 's wer supposed to be one entire wall 9 ft by 24 ft
Check out my blog - look in the archives around mid to late July, I think. There's even a post in there about elec in the SIP walls, but that's probably more like Aug or Sep? Usually no plumbing in the outer walls. . . .
2 story, full basement, SIP rim, I-joist decks, SIP walls, truss roof.
2 man crew with a load all for most of the job. 2.5 men on the days when I help. Rented crane for the trusses.
I would recommend you work with a mfg and let them work with you on the re-draw of plans for sips - and they can recommend builders. They'd know the skinny on seismic codes, too.
After you've looked through the archives here and my blog, ask away.
PS - I see you are in Seattle, your treatment of exterior flashing and other means of "wetness protection" are very important with SIPs If the OSB is allowed to get wet and stay wet, that is bad.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Supered two SIP homes in Lacey about five years ago. Both just floor and walls. SIPs were from the outfit in Fife. I was not pleased with the support we recieved from them. Maybe they're better now. Not cost effective IMO, but thats what the clients wanted. Floors were easy. Walls, another story. All the window and door openings had to have 2x6s installed around the perimiter of the openings to have something to nail to, and full length studs in the ends to nail the corners together. Lots of foam to carve out. Had to carve out the top for a plate to support and fasten the trusses too as I remember.
Three or four guys can move the panels pretty easily. Second floor? Boom truck a must.
Holddowns and straps, the arch and eng should be able to figure that out. I'd use both that have done SIPs before.
Siding. We installed fibercement, facenailed 12" oc with stainless steel ringshanks.
If you're doing this on your own and paying out of pocket, then maybe. If you're doing a construction loan and paying interest, you're not going to save much time, so I don't see a savings.
Just my two cents worth,
Harry
Here are some places to start
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Visit http://www.sips.org. It’s their job to inform people about SIPs and it’s in their best interests to make sure people have the info they need.
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SIP Companies also have websites that you can look at. Some are pretty good.
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I would ask any SIP company if they belong to SIPA (Structural Insulated Panel Association). This is not an end all and some good companies aren't members but no matter what, your SIP Manufacture should submit to third party testing.
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If you ask a SIP builder how he handles pluming, he will say, don’t put ANY plumbing in outside walls. There always has to be one vent in the roof and its key to button that up tight.
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Wiring goes pretty easy. Planning is the key again. Also getting an electrician who is familiar with SIPs goes a long way.
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The biggest issue with SIPs is the HVAC contractor. Ask your contractor how he determines the right-sized load for a building envelope that is going to come in at lower than .25 blower door test. If he says ‘what?’ don’t hire him.
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I could go on all day and typically do.
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jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Edited 12/22/2006 7:50 am ET by jross