I’ve been wrestling with a question about gable returns for a little while. My search did not really give me any answers.
How do you determine the size/proportion of a gabled return? I mean, when you have a gable roof and the return has a small gable roof instead of a hip roof like you often see on nicer elevations.
I’ve learned, via the search, that the best way to size a hipped return is to make the point of the hip rafter meet the point where the frieze hits the ledger (clear as mud?). But with a gable roof, there is no such point. I’ve attached a drawing where the return is 2.5 times the overhang depth. I think this looks okay but I’m sure it can be improved upon.
Also, is there a hard and fast rule that the roof on the return matches the main roof, or should it be steeper for more visual “weight”?
Replies
Jon,
Alot of the time on gabled or "pork chop" returns I'll just pull them far enough into the wall to catch the corner board. So the inboard side of the cornerboard is flush with the inboard edge of the return's soffit and the rake or side of the return "caps" it. Clear as mud once again, huh?
But that also can be effected by the pitch of the roof and the overhang of the main roof. Sometimes you just have to give it the 'ole stink eye and build "what looks right".
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Whaddya want from a framer? We both need someone to come along and give us a lesson on Ionic Order.
What's the architect say?
Surely a framer wouldn't pretend to be able to do design work, would they?
Tsk, tsk.
(G)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Hey.... someone's gotta do it. If you don't have at least a decent eye for design and proportion.... you won't last long framing. It's decisions, decisions.... all day long.View Image
Surely a framer wouldn't pretend to be able to do design work, would they?
I think framers pretend to do design work just about as much as lawyers pretend to do renovations...(g)
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Based on the fact that DP does both framing and exterior trim, I'd think he would be as qualified as anyone.
To the OP's Q, it all depends on the look you are going for.
As far as what the architect/designer draws, I find these guys routinely draw things that either can't be built that way, or just don't make sense. So, the "artwork" is used as much as possible and the builder (framer/ext trim guy/etc) makes it work. Today an electrician said to me "The plans are just an example of what it might look like" - I liked that!
Here is an example I've seen on many if not most of the set of plans I've built from: Front elevation shows large columns - anywhere between 8" and 12" and more often than not, tapered.. Front porch floor (foundation) is, say, 6' wide. Front porch beam is specified as 2 2x10s, which come out 6' from house. So the beam is 3" thick (2 two bys) and maybe we have 3" of taper on the columns, meaning that you end up with maybe 1.5" of bearing between the column and the beam. "We have a problem Houston". The two or 3 solutions are obvious, but why can't the plans just be drawn to make sense to start with?
Cornice returns are just for decoration anyway, so some field adjust may be necessary.
OP - sorry - I didn't really answer your Q.
BTW - I've noticed that many of the "vintage" homes in the small city that I live near have very little pitch on the "roof" of the cornice returns. From a water intrusion aspect, this seems like a really bad thing...
Are you referring to the returns that are just a big box covered in aluminum or wood, or the kind that have a small roof on them?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Either. It's a pretty vague answer, I know, but it's honest.View Image
I have the answer, sort of.
in its original purist form, aa return of tyhe roof line there in greek revival architecchture represents a capital on a column. The cornerboard represents the column itself.
The capital would perch equaly balanced atop the column, so if the cornerbd were 8" wide, with a 12" overhang on the roof, the return would be32" total.
But all things are relative and in the original Greek Rev, the corner on a house such as you show would have been more like 12-14". We rrely see tht anymore. But it would worth trying a drawing with returns balanced to see how it looks. Then adjust from that point. I'm betting the rest of the house is not purist either
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in its original purist form, aa return of tyhe roof line there in greek revival architecchture represents a capital on a column. The cornerboard represents the column itself. The capital would perch equaly balanced atop the column, so if the cornerbd were 8" wide, with a 12" overhang on the roof, the return would be32" total.
Thanks for your input, that makes a lot of sense. The artistic side of design is a diversion from my nature. I want a formula to apply, but that's not always what looks "right".
I'm betting the rest of the house is not purist either
Actually, you're wrong. The existing dwelling is an architecturally pure split foyer, as detailed in the eleventh book of Vitruvius. (g)
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
split foyer - ah yes, the cleavage style in the Dollypattonesgue school. In that case, the returns should don a wig
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There is no one size fits all method, even though many try. Dieselpig is right on the money when he says sometimes you just have to adjust it to what looks right.
Even for the architect, there are times when proportions just look different once it's built vs. a paper drawing. At least with the architects we've worked with, if it looks funny it probably makes sense to fix it.
Many times humans don't conciously understand why something looks odd, we just know it does, or we get a feeling something isn't quite right. We do it with people, events, things, and architecture.
As primarily a remodeler we try to match existing styles, which are not always correct to begin with. Sometimes we literally get in a truck and drive around to see other historic houses in the surrounding blocks. Some are good, some are bad, some were popular with the designers 100 years ago although not technically correct style-wise, some are fads, and the best solution is ultimately what works for the individual house.
Most people can look at a house and determine how universally good looking it is. It simply takes a little time and effort to understand the specifics of what makes a good design work.
Good designing.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I like the look of a return that matches the pitch of the roof it is returning from. When I frame a hipped return, I match the depth of the box coming of off the gable end with the eave soffit boxes, and that helps me dictate the size of the return. The mini roof of the return has one full size "common" rafter, that tucks in tight against the rake box, and then the hip rafter immediately follows that. I love the look of a nice hipped return, it adds such nice depth to a house. I would like to see some pictures when you get them finished. I'll try to snap a few shots of the returns on my house.
Dustin