Replies

1. 
   splintergroupie_ | Mar 09, 2002 11:01am | #1

   *
   Justin, the odds for the plaintiff in SCC are very favorable to you. Make sure you have all the receipts, pictures, contracts, etc. you can muster. In court, don't raise your voice, talk only to the judge, and bear in mind a decision in your favor is just that...not guaranteed collection.

   Most SCC's i have dealt with have had written info on the prodedure, the costs involved, and what you might do if the defendant doesn't pay.

   Research the mechanic's lien as an alternate way to go. Made sure if you pull info off the net it is specific to your state, as the laws vary.

1. 
   Bob_Walker | Mar 09, 2002 02:42pm | #2

   *Just to a add a touch to SG's excellent advice:The judge won't know you or the defendant; if it becomes a matter of you saying "I did" and the defendant saying "no you didn't" the judge is going to have to nake a decision as to who to believe. In cases like that, Judges tend to try to give something to both sides.You may be as honest and straight forward as the Pope, but the judge doesn't know that.So, the more objective relevant evidence, the better.Think it through step by setp.1. A contract was formed: A contract is a meeting of the mindes in which you agreed to do certain specified work and the defendant agreed to pay you a certain amount. A written contract is best, of course. If you didn't have a written contact, is there any other evidence? 2. You performed your part of the contract.3. The defendant didn't pay you.(It's hard for you to prove a negative; generally you only have to "plead" i.e. state, the defendant didn't pay you and the burden shifts to the defendant to prove they did if that's their defense.)If there is no clear contract, youy might still have an argument that you performed work that benefited the defendanmt and it wasn't just a volunteer "donation." This is called "unjust enrichment:" the defendeant accepted the fruits of your work and was unjustly enriched, Here you have to prove the value of what you did.Objective evidence is best: a written contract, supplier receipts, contemporaneous time sheets etc.Finally, anticpate the possible defenses and prepare to demonstarte (quietly and logically) that they aren't right:"There was no contract." "Here is the original.""You didn't do the work." "Here are the pictures.""You did a crappy job." "Here are the pictures and here's Joe, a master craftsman, who is prepared to testify that the job not only meets industry standards, but is one of the better jobs he's seen.""The job wasn't worth what you'r asking." "Here are the receipts for the materials. Here are the timesheets I kept at the time showing I worked x hours. My billing rate, as discussed with the defendant is $Z / hour. Also, here are 2 nationally published estimating quides which show that a job of this type and size will cost $Q dollars."Make it easy for the judge to decide for you without having to decide between an oral round of "I did!" & "You didn't!"Then, of course, you have to enforce any judgment you get.All the judge can do is say "As a matter of law, John Doe owes Justin Murphy $A." The judge can't get the money and give it too you.That's why you should consider a mechanics lien. They can't sell the house without clearing the lien which means you have to be satisfied!

1. 
   Armin_ | Mar 09, 2002 03:13pm | #3

   *Justin, Been there done that, for me it was a total waste of time. I did all the right stuff, won my case hands down, 5 years later still no money. Sure if you take it far enough you should eventually get your money. My case involved a client that was 150 miles away, since the work was performend at that location the claim had to be filed in his court. The follow up attempts to locate his money and the hassel with the legal system ended up costing half again what he owed me. Since the claim was against a business I could not touch his personal assets or garnish his wages. In short I wish I would have saved myself the time money and hassel, each case is different, some, like this one, you just have to walk away from.

1. 
   Scott_R | Mar 09, 2002 07:20pm | #4

   *I somewhat agree with Armin. Winning the suit is the easy part, collecting is another story.I too never collected but I don't feel it was a complete waste of time.1. It's a matter of principle, I can sleep at night knowing I wasn't a doormat.2. I learned volumes about the legal system3. It taught me how to be less susceptible in the future.I say go for it, but be prepared to fight 10 times harder on collecting as you did to win the case.Good luck and keep us posted.Scott R.

1. 
   Mark_McDonnell | Mar 09, 2002 07:40pm | #5

   *2 outta 3 times, the smart one won't risk a judgement on their record. They'll settle. To add to Scott's excellent post, it's worth the $27 bucks and a couple of hours of your time just to drag them (the deadbeats) up on the rug in front of a judge just to dispel the idea that they are right and you were wrong.You are forever in their thoughts.Priceless......

2. 
   Rich_Beckman | Mar 09, 2002 08:01pm | #6

   *Just out of curiosity...In a situation just like Justins, when the amount of money isn't so large and you could eat it, but the idea of doing so just sucks (why should they get away with it?), and you have a written contract.....Can't you turn it over to a collection agency???At least that way, the deadbeat is being periodically reminded that they are a deadbeat.Rich Beckman

3. 
   Justin_Murphy | Mar 10, 2002 12:59am | #7

   *Thank you all for your excellent inputs. These are just the thoughts going through my head, and many of my concerns. I don't know what makes the most sense in the moment, to sue or not to sue both have merits, but I think that I will be soon finding out. I am nearly certain that I will go after this client. More than the money even is the inspiration to go to bat just on the principle of the thing, the count that Scott brought up. Not that I need this woman to be thinking about me in the back of her head all the time, (though vengence in any form is sweet at some base level), but I just fume that some people treat others like so coldly, looking only for their own advantage, conveniently 'forgetting' that they asked you to labor for their benefit as some way of getting the work for free, and the handshake and smiles are just tools to screw the very hands that labor. It is like they are playing a personal Stratego game or something, and I never said "hey, let's just see who kills who, m'kay? Ready, set.... I know she has done this with others and will do it again. I am tinking it is worth the extra $100 to do it, just in experience alone. The thing Rich, that I understand, is that I cannot put this to a collection agencyuntil I have a judgement from the court that I am in fact owed this money legally. I have to prove my case and have the judge rule in my favor. It certainly seems that it should be, in this case, self-evident. Yet I need the judgement prior to that and prior to put a lein on her or on her business. One of my questions I guess is that this may be a business that I will have to be going after. The work involoved is that I put in a bamboo floor, and then curved cherry threshold, and then cherry wheelchair accessable ramps, into a shop that she was starting up. So that may make it more dificult, especially since it was into a shop that she is leasing inside of a small upscale mall like space. So she does not opsn the building or the shop for htat matter. If her buisiness fails, something that I would not be totally surprised at, the lein would follow her failed buisiness and not the store where I put in the work... At least that is my guess. Justin

4. 
   splintergroupie_ | Mar 10, 2002 02:01am | #8

   *I recently won a civil suit against some college-boys who damaged my rental before i could evict them. I have a judgment, but they've closed their bank accounts. I called a collection agency who wants $50 up front and a third of any proceeds. As i see it, they send one form letter for the $50 and they're done. Pretty good business plan--rivals my attorney's fees.Or i can impound their cars. I drove by their new place yesterday and i see one of the vehicles is there. I have to pay for the pick-up and impound by the day, which gives me pause, and i have to give them the first $2500 of value when it's sold at sheriff's auction, but i'm beginning to think it could be good theater...what's a newer-model Jeep Cherokee go for, anyway?I thought i would look into having this judgment put on their credit ratings with the three major reporting agencies. Does anyone know about how that is done?

5. 
   Bill_Hartmann | Mar 10, 2002 02:39am | #9

   *SplinterHow do you know that they "own" the cars. They be leasing, but if they are titled in their names they might be upside down on the loan.

6. 
   splintergroupie_ | Mar 10, 2002 03:45am | #10

   *Good point, Bill. These two college boys met in prep school, spend vacations going to places like Innsbruck to ski. The demeanor in court was that they felt they were quite above a mere judge, so i assumed their parents paid cash for their new 4WD's. I have a lawyer friend who has referred me to someone at a bank who deal in repos, so i'm seeing what she has to say before i proceed with this.

7. 
   Randy_Rogers | Mar 10, 2002 05:26am | #11

   *I'm in Michigan so all may not apply. I've used small claims numerous times (even for less money) and ALWAYS walked away with a check. Much is just reinforcing what was previously said but: Keep it short, be objective, be precise, have evidence, look and act professional (don't dress too fancy), have witnesses if necessary. Before I went to court first time I was told how difficult it sometimes is to collect but a method was recommended for helping out in that regard: If the judge declares in your favor, immediately(and nicely) ask the judge to ask defendant when you will be paid. Also have the judge ask defendant where his accounts are should it be necessary to go after them directly. That is method I followed and each time the defendant wrote the check in the back of the courtroom, plus legal fees.I don't know why it works - perhaps psychological. I was warned that if you don't get financial information from defendant immediately, then odds decrease that you will collect, as you then must try and chase down banks, employer, etc. Is also good idea to sit in small claims court before your court date in order to get a feel for the judge and how he/she operates. Have to have all your ducks in a row. I am speaking from first hand experience only. Others may have had different results.Some thoughts. Randy

8. 
   Justin_Murphy | Mar 10, 2002 09:32am | #12

   *Thank you Randy for that last one. I like the idea of that approach, and I think that it may work well here with this client. I think that everyone who has gone to small claims has their experience, and I gain by hearing all of it as I have no experience here, but I have been getting a lot of input that it may be tough to collect. Perhaps it doesn't have to be, and if that is the case I certainly appreciate the idea that it could go smoothly in the collection department as well. Everybody's input and advice has been great. Justin

9. 
   Stephen_Miller3214 | Mar 10, 2002 12:13pm | #13

   *I don't have personal experience with these turkeys, thank God, but I have a lawyer friend who tells me a good way to collect from a business is to use a "keeper." I am in California, so don't know what applies elsewhere.First you have to get the judgement in your favor, like Randy R suggests above. Then you institute the keeper. When you file the SCC suit, ask the clerk for info on this.For, maybe, a hundred bucks more (which of course you add to your bill), a deputy sheriff of the county in which the defendant has his business goes to that business. He sits next to the cash register, with his badge and his gun and maybe a scowl, and every time a customer comes to the cash register to pay for his boutique item in the trendy, upscale mall shop that stiffed you, the deputy holds out his hand and collects the money until it totals what's owed you plus the keeper fees plus the other fees you've incurred. He doesn't care whether the money is paid by goggle-eyed customers or the goniff that owns the business, he just adds it up till it reaches the right amount.Ain't it delicious? My understanding is that khaki clashes with cherry and bamboo.

10. 
    Danial_T | Mar 10, 2002 03:09pm | #14

    *Justin, I have experience in court with eviction judgements. Same basic pattern. Go to court, get eviction, recieve judgement for unpaid rent or damage, try to collect. Here in Ohio you can garnish wages. The catch is you can only collect a percentage of their earnings and based on the time the employer recieves it you may be 2nd or 3rd in line. And you have to file once a month, each month until it is paid. Usually it meant going to file and spending an hour doing so to collect $18-27. Not very profitable but I was pissed so we did it for 9 months until we got it all. Here we can also take a judgement to the bank if you have a checking or savings account number and take the money from the bank account. This usually only works once so now we keep the account number from all tenants checks. We have only had 2 evictions in 16 years so not a routine thing for us. DanT

11. 
    Justin_Murphy | Mar 12, 2002 09:22am | #15

    *I have got to say that I have been having a heyday just thinking about the possible combinations of colors here with the bamboo/cherry that so appealed to this client. Navy blue and shiney silver stars would look wonderful, hand outstreached, a splash of gunmetal blue in there just to fill out the picture. I am sure this scene in the front door of the shop, like the wooden Indians of old, would be a real croud pleaser. Just would bring the business in in droves. What a delightful advertisement it would be, a form that this woman I am sure never imagined in her shop, and I could help her realize the value of it! Just the entertainment it would bring alone would make it worth it, and I am sure that it wouldn't be long before she is filling that hand just to get it out of there! You have a wonderful sense of interior design Stephen! Thank you as well Danial. I actually did get her bank account I am happy to say. Wonderful suggestion. Justin

12. 
    AndyL | Mar 14, 2002 06:22am | #16

    *In terms of the whether the judgement will only apply to her business, you need to find out how her business is legally set up. If she's set up as a sole proprietorship, she has total personal liability for business debts. If she's incorporated, or an LLC, most likely she has limited liability. In Wisconsin, you can garnish receivables, which means that if anyone owes her money (customers), you can get it. Same goes for inventory or any other business assets. Sometimes there's creative possibilities... all depends on the laws in your state.Good luck

13. 
    Brian_Smith | Mar 14, 2002 09:41am | #17

    *include the proprietor's name in the suit, not just the business name. mechanic's liens attach to property and in this case the proprietor is not the owner of the property.if the owner/property management co. did not post a "notice of non-responsibility", then the actual owner is also liable for your costs. include this entity in your suit. you might find that the whole thing gets settled before you go to court. they very well persuade your client to pay up.brian