Hey everybody that’s still up at 8:00pm on a sunday night (you know, gettin a good nights rest for school on monday. Here’s my question…
My customer wants a sidewalk poured, about 6 feet wide by 32 feet long, no big deal all formed up ready to go and he says… can we put something in the concrete to melt ice? And of course when we have a customer ask if something can be done, if we have ever done that or not our answer is always a very confident…Sure!! We can do that. Then we go about figuring out how in heck do you do that.
Well we are going with 208/240 Electrical Heat. Anybody used electrical over pex and water? Which Company> Thanks.
Replies
There are all kinds of fancy houses in Whistler with electric heat in the driveway, although I don't have any direct experience with it. If you don't get any responses here I could ask around.
I imagine the electric meter must spin like a bloody DVD drive when that thing sparks up.....
Scott.
Thanks for the reply. Good to know some folks are using electric. Must not be to prehistoric. I would say the meter base glass will have to be replaced with some sort of metal enclosure to keep the dial inside.
We have snow melt matts in the public sidewalks on the north and west sides of our commercial building. Ours are 277/480v systems, but they work the same as 120/208v variety.
Yes they do have a cost associated with operation. It is small compared to the potential for law suites for us.
The system has a key operated switch to turn it on and also an outside air sensor. The temperature has to be below 32 degrees for the contactor to pull in, even with the key on.
The only drawback, other than operating cost, is that the concrete work must be good to start with. Minor cracks aren't much of a problem. Large cracks, seperations and frost heaving will beak the embeded wire. Then from the break on out you have no heat untill you locate and repair the break. A costly endeavor itself, that many commercial buildings seldom invest in.
Were I you, I would explain that to the HO before hand. You need to decide on your warrenty period and have it the signed agreement. otherwise it can come back abite you, years down the road.
I took into account the problems that may arise crossing a planned expansion joint but I didn't think about any cracks that happen in the field. bad news. Thanks for the info. Had a concrete guy tell me a good concrete job would never crack, come to think of it he hasn't had work in years.
You know the three guaranties on concrete don't you.
1. Know one will steal it.
2. It won't burn.
3. It will crack!
The biggest difference between a good concrete guy and a great one is the great one knows how to control where the concrete is going to crack. I'll credit to Gabe Martel in an article he did for JLC years ago for that last bit.
>>>Gabe MartelNow there's a name I haven't seen in a while. He used to hang out here too, way back in the WebX days.Scott.
http://www.tycothermal.com/usa/english/snow_melting/
I have a Raychem (related Co.)
Jeff
Just an educated guess (no personal experience) but I believe it would be less expensive overall to put a PEX radiant system in the concrete, using at least 2" of the appropriate kind of foam insulation under the sidewalk.
A PEX system would allow for several types of fuel to be used including electrically heated water (HWH) passing through a heat exchanger to heat an anti-freeze solution.
BTW: First time I heard of a radiant system for snow/ice melting was from an old carpenter I worked with about forty years ago. He told me that he had laid a loop of galvanized pipe under his short driveway.
Said plumbing entered his garage/workshop where it was connected to a spiral of bendable copper, straight from the box, then to a used oil pump from a furnace. The copper coil was laid out on top of a wood stove.
This system he filled with motor oil. So instead of shoveling his driveway or chopping ice, he just went out to the garage as necessary, lit a fire in the woodstove then turned on the pump. He said that the driveway was usually clear by the time he'd had a second cup of coffee.
While I suspect that he exaggerated a bit about the time factor, I was able to verify that his system did work nicely. And it had the added benefit of heating his workshop.
Edited 8/17/2009 9:16 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Thanks for the feedback. I really like the idea the old guy had using oil. Wonder if a person could make that work on a larger scale. Used oil...say,veggi oil, cooking oil from wendy's, burger king, filtered and pumped into the system. How much do think it will cost to start a new business. Recycled Oil Floor Systems. Has a nice ring to it.
When I worked for an automotive supplier in Ohio, I spent a lot of time at a loading dock that was below street level -- trucks would back in off of the street, going downhill till the ICC bar hit the bumper.
Which, in an Ohio winter, was a bad thing.
Except that the concrete ramp (4 bays wide? maybe 5) had a hydronic heating system in it. It was laced with pipes that were fed by the same system as the heating system in the factory.
And note that you don't need to heat the concrete to 65 degrees to do the job -- somewhere just above freezing is good enough.
HW radiant heat fed with a water heater...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You have to run glycol in an outside hydronic system and it's corrosive/toxic.
Jeff
the OP asked and outdoor hydronic systems are available...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
http://www.houghton.com/fluids/safe-t-therm/index.html
http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/corn-glycol/
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Good to know - thanks.
another...
http://www.specialchem4coatings.com/tc/hexasol/index.aspx
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
BTW... the neighborhood critters will thank you for the warmth....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
From Wisconsin. A Honda snow thrower is $600 and will last for years.
hint...
somebody can't be botherd with the nuscience..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
My client is a doctor. He probably thinks a snow blower is a ... Well never mind.
I've used Warmly Yours products for heating tile. I have never used their out door products, but here is there Website link.
http://www.warmlyyours.com/radiant-heating/snow-melting-systems/