Soapstone install – am I losing it?
Here’s the scenario:
Customer has a Rohl/Shaw farm sink going in a soapstone top. I don’t do many farm sinks; they’re beautiful, but my customers rarely have the money or inclination. The last installation I did was great except that the plumber or GC dropped the sink in the cabinet crossways and split the side.
Emails to say the apron on the cabinet is not quite deep enough. This probably coming from her very qualified, very nice GC and/or equally nice, but inexperienced, job super. (The job is about 90 minutes from me.) I say it’s no problem; if incorrect I’ll get it fixed when we go out again in about 2 days.
While I’m on the phone checking the dimensions with the mfr, it occurs to me that my last personal installation and all the photos and other sinks I’ve seen don’t make sense with what I’m hearing about placement on this particular job.
Turns out the stone fabricator templates for the sink rim to be covered entirely, which I’ve never seen done with her particular sink. If installed that way the only part of the rim that shows is the front and a bit of the radius sides. Why buy this type sink and then cover the shape and beauty of it by smacking it under the top?
Every sink of this type that I’ve seen has been installed with the rim at least partially exposed and recessed from 1/4″ to 3/4″ below the top. To me that looks appropriate for this type sink and doesn’t obscure what you buy the sink for in the first place.
So, finally, here’s what I want to know:
1) If the sink were installed in its own era and in a countertop material appropriate to the period, what would that look like?
2) Is this installation so atypical? The GC is fine with it; the super thinks it can’t be done. The tile people overseeing the soapstone folks are freaking.
Shall I just swear off these sinks just as I’ve sworn off arranging for stone tops?
Replies
I have no idea whether my kitchen sink is typical or correct, but it works for me. Here's a photo of soapstone sink under soapstone counter.
resize:
View Image
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Thanks: My Irfanview is in my other computer.
My Irfanview is in my other computer.
That's as bad as "my dog ate it"."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Haven't seen that particular sink before. Really looks good in the countertop.
In this instance the full undermount over the lip of the sink is a good choice.
Thanks for the post!
The last remodel I did involved a Rohl Shaw sink. The hos wanted it flush with the counter top.I had never put one in, but when I saw that beautifully rounded edge, I asked them how they thought they were going to keep that gap clean, and from leaking.We undermounted it. The apron sticks out enough to appreciate the subtle roundness of the edges<G>.Because of the rounded edges, we made some trim pieces out of resawn cabinet filler to hide the rectangular cut out we had to make in the cabinet face. Looks nice.Setting the sink was a chore, because there are no flat spots, and it's exceptionally heavy. We had to make a little frame work underneath to support, because I didn't trust the 1/2" cabinet shelf K&B folks said would hold it.Unfortunately, when the countertop installers set the counter, they nudged the sink a little wonky to the way they had templated. HOs don't notice, but I do.Funny thing about the sink... because the sink is so thick, we had to wait three weeks for "special" drain and tailpiece. K & B store supplied the sink and drain assy. When it finally arrived, I opened it up, and it was an Insinkerator disposal drain. I called K&B and they said that's what they use to install them all... The plumber ended up making a proper drain! Not soapstone, Nordic Black granite with a leather polish, elegantly casual! If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
"granite with a leather polish,"Vas is das?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Some sort of acid wash that sort of craters the surface, gives it some texture. Surface isn't glassy slick or shiney, either... If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Nice job.
On this project my installer actually cut the radius at the bottom corners, which, of course doesn't exactly match the radius on the hand made sink. Don't know why, because he didn't on the last one. I explained to my client that finish trim is often necessary around these sinks, and that small gaps will be filled.
The sink was out about 1/2" too far for her, so they bumped it back. That created some gaps on both sides of the sink near the radius, where it was very tight on one side before. Except for the radius areas, the irregularities are similar to those in the last installation. However, client doesn't want trim; she wants the front re-cut so it fits the sink. So now I have to fight that battle also. Why people buy handmade items when what they expect is perfection is beyond me.
Yeah, we didn't trust the shelf either. My installer ran 2x's side to side and put a 3/4 shelf on top made out of some leftover ply. Our sink bottom is also not flat, but at least it's not rocking.
So far I haven't had to deal with the drains on these, but I always advise clients to purchase whatever the mfr recommends for plumbing specialty fixtures, even if it is expensive. Usually I'm working with my client and our local plumbing showroom, and they're very knowledgeable.
BTW, I'd love to be able to post the pics of the installation I was trying to describe. Know how to get a PDF file posted here? I couldn't copy/paste, and the link didn't seem to work.
It looks like the sink pic Mike posted has the cab face radiused to fit the sink. I didn't see that happening in the time/cost frame we had. The cabinets are oak, like I said, we esaed some filler to 3/8" and were able to fit that very tightly to the sink. It also allowed to squeeze some Lexel at the gap so no water's getting back there. The trim is very subtle. If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
Actually I think not doing the radius leaves fewer obvious irregularities. Don't know why my Mike did it this time...maybe customer request.
We 'll probably rip down our 1 1/4" scribe that has a very subtle detail.
Next time the sucker better be going on legs....
I spent a good hour or two scribing that sink. It's handmade of course, and with the changing profile I found it impossible to use scribes, just trial and error. Glad I had my angle grinder. One corner has maybe 1/16" gap I filled with Phenoseal. Ticked me off.
To me the gaps left when you just do a square cutout are unacceptable, and I don't think any of our clients would go for it either. Boogeymen can hide out there.
Did you template it? That Rohl sink wore me out the few times I had to move it<G> If dogs run free, then what must be,
Must be, and that is all.
True love can make a blade of grass
Stand up straight and tall.
In harmony with the cosmic sea,
True love needs no company,
It can cure the soul, it can make it whole,
If dogs run free.
It was a few years ago, but as I recall I think I did try a couple of templates but got frustrated and just went for it.
Those sinks and having to scibe a blank front are a real thorn for us.
That is not how they were intended to be used.
You did a very nice install.
Eric[email protected]
Thanks Eric--
You are welcome, but all I did was resize and post the pic, the install isn't mine. I will try to get a picture of one of mine tomorrow.
smslaw gets the credit for the one pictured.
Hello?Is this thing on?
Edited 4/1/2008 9:09 pm by Heck
My countertop supplier (Maine Soapstone) built the sink. He gets credit for extending the countertop a bit over the sink. It makes it easy to clean and avoids a visible grunge pocket.
Nice windows.
"It is what it is."
"1) If the sink were installed in its own era and in a countertop material appropriate to the period, what would that look like?"
The sink would have been free standing, with a work bench/table next to it and across the room, a Hoosiers cabinet. On another wall would have been the wood or coal cookstove with a pipe for hot water in the water jacket.
Countertops evolved later
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Piffin, that was my guess, since the idea of a countertop (separate from a functional piece of furniture) is a relatively new concept in kitchens. My mom-in-law worked on her Hoosier top and the kitchen table, as did many of the women in our family.
The kitchen in my grandparent's house had a large wall-mounted sink/drainboard combo, so I had seen those. However, I'd never seen one of these farm sinks until I came across one in a magazine. I figured they would have had a base or frame with legs, but couldn't find anything to verify that.
I've worked on several 1920's-30's houses that had butler's pantries with sinks that had original stained/varnished ash 'counters' with grooves routed in them. They overlapped the white porcelain sink edge for drainage (as in #6 below). But most farm sinks weren't 'connected' to counters.
Still, there were attempts to 'integrate' these heavy sinks with cabinets closeby, and in some cases, with counters overlapping.
Jeff
Edited 4/3/2008 1:05 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Kitchen #6
1920's kitchen
Looks like you have been taking photos of some kitchens I've been demolishing to upgrade over the years! One even looks like where I lived first six years of my life.
Had to laugh at your description of the ash drainboard. Just yesterday. I was framing for a stainless countertop to replace one of those that had grown dingy and nasty over the past 110 years.
Couldn't find the photo on the PC of that, so I will shoot some more of it tomorrow if I remember.
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Great pictures, Jeff. As a kid in the 1950s, I remember my mother giving my little brother a bath in a sink like that.
About 10 tens ago, in trying to keep a kitchen remodel appropriate to a 1920s house, I called my mother and asked her what was used for countertops in the 1920s and 1930s. She was born in 1923. She said people didn't have countertops in those days and then reminisced about the smell of the new oil-cloth table covering her mother bought each year.
Our kitchen in the 1950s had a large kitchen table, a potato bin with a linoleum-covered top (and metal rim) and a couple of "cubbards" on the wall. As I recall, kitchens with banks of cabinets and countertops did not appear in houses until the 1960s. They were in magazines but not in anybody's house that I knew.
Where they had countertops they were usually wood, soapstone, slate ... or maybe stainless in higher end large houses.
I was a 'kid' in the 50's too ;o)
Jeff
Edited 4/3/2008 1:19 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
"Where they had countertops they were usually wood, soapstone, slate ... or maybe stainless in higher end large houses."In the lower end houses, it was linoleum with metal banding in the forties, fifties and early sixties
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"the forties, fifties and early sixties"
= The 'Dismal Years' for kitchens ;o)But then again, I prefer many of the 'before' pics in the magazines -
Jeff
eta - uh doncha remember the 'space age' formica of the 50's and 60's???
Edited 4/3/2008 1:58 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
my memory puts formica in the 60s and 70s.There are some nice ones in those attachments of yours. I try to design mine so the LOOK old style, but work in efficient design and modern items
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"my memory puts formica in the 60s and 70s"
The house I spent most of my youth in was built in 1954. Yellow formica countertop, knotty pine cabs, brick red vinyl (or was it lineoleum?) flooring.
I didn't mean to argue that it didn't exist back then. I was only commenting on where my personal memory placed it.I think the oldest formica I have seen was from the mid fifties. A nice aqua-torquoise blue ford thunderbird colour. With matching appliances, of course!;)
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Yea, that's the style - think the neighbors had that one!
zinc or linoleum. The zinc ones always felt greasy, no matter how you scrubbed them.
coupl eyears ago,I replaced two Zinc tops. They had been installed for an owner who wanted authenitc old timey stuff.Then they realized how nasty it can be after a few years. They have stainless now.
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I have to admit, nice brushed stainless has much more appeal...my fingers still remember the feel of that zinc...eeeccch!
a lot like fingernails on the chaulkboard sensation!
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Yes, but stickier...the same sort of sensational memory. As I read "chalkboard", my teeth hurt!
How are you feeling these days? I've slacked off a lot on the house, although I've been working full time at the library since January. I trade rent for work with a really good handyman, & my new motto is "Ask Frank to do that."
call me frank
I am not a contractor anymore. Focusing on design and inspections.
Filling in with handyman work
I am in Fl today to move Mom to assisted living. Time to run meet her for lunch, then the big move
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Good luck to you and Mom!
(Bet the homeowners on your island are crying...)
Edited 4/12/2008 12:53 pm ET by kate
Look at Sheldonslate.com.
That period you're referring to had slate sinks with slate drainboards and counters too, of slate.
I like to do it the way 'Snort did his--
View Image
And, if they had figured out soapstone (or granite) countertops back then, they would have overlapped the tops if it made it easier to clean.
I finally got around to taking a picture of the farm sink display I did for a local cab retailer:
View Image
Hello?
Is this thing on?
Today, I got my camera out too.Some are over a hundred years old, others probably date from the fifties, and the stainless I just finished today to replace old rotting ash tops. The ones that are still good are in places that do not see daily wet use. The stainless went into the working kitchen
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Cool stuff Paul.
I've never seen a wooden top like that.
Who did the SS top for you?[email protected]
Andy Stancioff from Rockport has been doing all my metal work for a few years now. We have done stainless tops in a couple full kitchens before where I made up the entire slab with MEDEX and took it over to him, then he applied the stainless with contact cement.On this one, it was just some infills between sinks to replace the rotted Ash counters, so my guys did the demo, then Andy measured his patterns and made up the stainless, then I built in the frame to support them to fit since everything was delicately tight. Then I did the finish fitting and glued them in.
(Andy does business as Optimum Glass and Sheet Metal)It is a fairly heavy duty commercial type kitchen - a bit on the rugged side of style, but this is a fully staffed household where the owners do not do the cooking or hang out in the kitchen.
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Very nice stuff, I like the ash top.
I have done some copper tops, but can't seem to find the pictures.
Hello?Is this thing on?
Heck,
Thanks for the pic. That's the installation I'm used to and the one I think looks best.
Nice job!
what do the details on your install drawings show?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
here is another one that I found - somebody else posted it here a couple years ago.
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That one's purtty, but talk about crud collectors! My I bet they've got whole new life forms going in the back corners on either side of that sink...
That was my comment when it was posted.
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Wow, yet another version of these sinks! Haven't seen that particular sink anywhere, and what a weird installation...
Thanks for all your pics, they were great!
Actually, I stay away from handling anything but cabinets, so I don't provide any details for tops of any kind. In this area, hardly anyone can read details....and I'm not being rude, that's just the way it is.
I know there are different ways to install sinks, and I know that I look at things from a designer's perspective, so I wanted some input on what everyone else was doing.
Everyone has posted a lot of interesting pics. The sink installed in the kitchen showroom (can't remember now who posted it) is what I generally see.
I know it's not perfect, but I'm willing to concede defeat by the clean-mongers as soon as I start seeing kitchens with real ventilation again.
field install problems usually start on the kitchen designers desk.
as an installer ... I can say your answer is typical.
you didn't like the end result, but didn't provide any direction and/or forethought.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Excuse me, but I provide excellent details for all my projects, I have no problem staying with my installer the entire day to be available for questions, and I take full responsibility when a design detail doesn't provide a good result. I fix those at my expense and pay my installer any extra labor required. My installers and I often meet to review details on a complicated project before anything is ordered. I rely on my installers to tell me when they think something isn't going to work out, and I'm happy to make any adjustments they deem necessary in the course of the installation.
I had nothing to do with the tops on this project other than to offer an alternative method of installation for the sink that I'm more familiar with. Had I been responsible for these tops I certainly would have provided any information required to get the end result my customer desired. The tops went in a few days ago, and the customer is happy with the alternative I suggested.
I repeat, all I wanted was to hear other opinions on installation of farm sink as I was beginning to think I was being too "designer-ish" about the issue.
I certainly didn't expect a knee-jerk, nearly insulting comment from someone who's apparently had as many years of experience as I have!
Susie,
Buck's gonna bust your chops. Don't get in a tizzy over it.
One thing you might consider is to bring in your production team on the design. It's called planning. Iron out the wrinkles as much as you can on paper so you don't have to do it in the field ($$). And your installers and clients will appreciate the fore thought.
Just my 2 cents.
Eric[email protected]
Oh, to have a production team!
It's just me, my great installers who actually don't "belong" to me and so have to work my projects in around their bread-and-butter work, and a showroom that doesn't actually care when or if my cabinets come in or get to the jobsite.
Small wonder I shy away from having to handle anything else...
Thanks for your post!