Replies

1. 
   RalphWicklund | May 03, 2003 07:12am | #1

   Short answer: call them.

   Better answer: Have your ducks in a row, know exactly what you want to do, and start checking with family, friends and neighbors for their experiences and recommendations. No or confusing results? Go to the phone book and pick out some names. Or, better yet, call someone (a builder, remodeller) who would use subs and ask them. And still better, call and ask the builder to bid the project and then pay him to do what he is in business to do - know who to call and get your job done.

   As a GC, I usually know who to call for the best results and if I'm at a loss (it happens) I can ask one of the subs, who will know someone. (My electrical sub recommended a great roofer).

1. 
   Mongo | May 03, 2003 05:52pm | #3

   Good info from Ralph.

   To solicit a bid, they need something to bid on. Make sure that each person knows that you;re looking for x, y, and z, or one person will put tigether a bid using the cheapest materials, the other using finer materials. Guess who's bid will be lower? Guess who's bid you will wish you would have taken?

   Quality of work is important.

   Referrals are best, often times going backwards in reference to the construction timeline. Example...you find a great painter. Ask him who does good trimwork. Ask the trimmer who does good rock. Ask the rockers who frames well. Ask the framer who does he know that pours a solid foundation. Etc, etc.

   Don't waste people's time. As piffin wrote, it takes time to write up a detailed bid. If you want a detailed proposal from a sub, be prepared to pay a few hundred dollars to get one. Time is money. If you choose that sub, the cost of the bid is usually considered part of the payment for the job, ie, the bid doesn't cost you anything in the end.

1. 
   Wet_Head | May 03, 2003 07:37pm | #5

   Like the builder that conned me recently.  He was required to bid out the sub work for some reason.  Turns out the bast**d never intended to use anyone but his regular guy.  So he specced quality products to me and the other new bidder.  But he specced cheap crap to his regular guy.  I usually weed this type out early on but he got me.

   THEN the rotten SOB goes to a current client and tells them they are getting ripped off because he had me bid a job and he knows.  Grrrrr!

   Thankfully this client knew what they were paying for and why so it was just laughed off... but... I did some damage control anyways... like bonus gift certificates to the Outback Steakhouse as a surprise a week later.

1. 
   Piffin | May 03, 2003 10:14pm | #6

   You've got an outback down there now?

   Whooppee!.

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Wet_Head | May 03, 2003 10:22pm | #7

   In Junction

2. 
   Piffin | May 03, 2003 04:08pm | #2

   Describe your project. Not just to us but to them.

   Asking for bids implies that you are looking for the cheapest price and not the best work. That merans that automatically half or more of the best people will decline to work for you or spend time on a "bid".

   I have way more than enough work to do without soending a week to prepare a bid on something that has a signal hanging over it that you are looking for cheap work. I know in advance that I will not get the job because I will gaurantee that I am not the cheaperst bidder.

   But if that is the way you want to go, you have to have detailed construction documents prepared by someone who knows what they are doing, either a project manager or an architect. Their fees will negate the amount you assume you will save on "bidding" the jobs out.

   Tell us more and you can get better info. as it is, I only know enoughto feel like I'm shooting at the wind with a shotgun. Think I'll hit it?

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   FrankB89 | May 04, 2003 07:57am | #9

   "asking for bids implies that you are looking for the cheapest price and not the best work..."

   I pretty much disagree with that. 

   I have a number of subs that I've worked with for a long time, but they're not mine exclusively and, consequently, not always available on short notice, or within the time frame of my project(s).

   So, sometimes I have to shop around a bit, getting referrals or recommendations as another poster suggested and when I get some names together, I start contacting these folks. 

   The next step, is to present the "candidates" with plans, specifications, scheduling, my expectations of craftsmanship, etc.

   I live in a relatively small community so I usually know these new guys...some have just hung out their shingle after working for someone else for a long time and I may have a pretty good handle on their capabilities.

   As a general contractor, I do have a responsibility to the client to spend his or her money wisely and not give carte blanche to some sub because he's my buddy. 

   In the past couple of years, I've shopped concrete foundation work because the guy with the good crew I'd worked with for a long time has gradually swung more and more into large commercial jobs and he's become less and less competitive (and less interested) in residential work.

   And the electrical contractor I favor because his crew puts together a clean, tidy, clearly marked job that exceeds anything you'll ever see in a textbook is closing his doors and retiring.

   And sometimes, like a new home we're breaking ground on Monday, the HO had a heating/plumbing business of his own for 40 some years and stipulated from the get-go that HE wanted competitive bids on HIS specs for his heating and plumbing system...no problem for me...it's his cash, but he's new to the area so I connect him with the players and he makes the final nod....my contract with him stipulates to all that.

   My most well-to-do client is a man who has never questioned a bill, but ALWAYS wants an up-front estimate.  If the project is large and involves several trades, while I may only require estimates from those subs, they still have to do the legwork and paperwork (which they can factor in to their price), but the process, in this case and many others, does not always have anything to do with cheap or shoddy.

    

1. 
   Piffin | May 04, 2003 09:26am | #10

   "ALWAYS wants an up-front estimate"

   I don't think that we disagree all that much on this.

   To start with there is a great deal of difference between an estimate and a bid. You have been refering to estimates in your description here.

   I never give a job to someone because he is my buddy. I do it because I know he is the best choice for the job. Like you I know all of these guys personally or at least something about them and how they do business. The ones with a bad rep don't even get a chance to estimate or talk to me about it. I'll bet it's the same with you.

   So, do you do any real firm closed "bids" all based on the same detailed specs, or is there some negotiation and salesmanship involved?

   In other words, If you have a specification for cedar lap siding fingerjointed and I tell you I have a good deal on #1 select siding that I can offer you for another $300 on the whole house, do you look for the lowest "bid" price or do we talk? If it's negotiated and you use estimates instead of firm bids then we are in perfect agreement and I believe that's the best way to serve the customer..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Boxduh | May 04, 2003 05:25pm | #11

   So here is are three questions for those of you who won't bid jobs to plans and specs, hard money, under any circumstances.

   If a project for "estimate" comes to you with every last design and construction issue resolved, and all choices made for everything, engineering complete, drawings and details and specs all final, how close to your "estimate" is the final tally, usually? 

   Will you put an estimate on a project like the one described here, knowing that the client is asking your competitor to do the same? 

   What kind of contract do you do with an owner who is financing his project with a bank?

2. 
   FrankB89 | May 04, 2003 06:11pm | #14

   Yes, we probably are mostly in agreement in practice, and co-mingling the terms "estimate" and "bid" confuses the issue. (my fault) 

   Part of my point is that, many times, I have to have a hard number for my contract with the client, especially if a bank construction loan is involved.  When writing up the bank budget spreadsheet, I usually try to create a little wiggle room to cover contingencies, but, especially with the larger expenses, like site prep, foundations, framing, utilities, etc., hard numbers are often a must.

   Another factor here in Oregon is that any project exceeding $2500 must be defined by a written contract between the client and contractor or the GC and sub...(part of the regulatory stuff that I know makes you grit your teeth, but the purpose is to separate the fly-by-nighters from the legitimate or to reduce misunderstandings).

   Those contracts can, of course, be T@ M or "not to exceeds" or whatever, but in a larger addition, remodel, or new construction where a budget and larger cost is involved, they usually include hard numbers (along with change order language, allowances for fixtures, etc.).

   And the one that makes me grit my teeth is that my liability insurance carrier audits my sub costs for the basis of my premium, so I have to manage that number up front so I can accurately calculate my own overhead. 

3. 
   GHR | May 03, 2003 06:45pm | #4

   I don't ask for bids. I don't give bids.

   I talk to people until I find someone who I am willing to work with.

   When we agree to work together, then we work on an estimate. I pay for or get paid for time and material.

   In my current business I get a check for $5000 before I even talk to anyone.

1. 
   Boxduh | May 04, 2003 03:37am | #8

   I gotta ask.  What kind of contracting do you do?

1. 
   GHR | May 04, 2003 05:46pm | #12

   Just small stuff. Nothing over 2500sqft.

1. 
   Boxduh | May 04, 2003 06:01pm | #13

   And you are a sub with a specialty that does work for favored builders, right?  Like sitework, framing, foundations, plumbing?

   Recall that this thread was started by a person seeking to be his own GC, and asking how to solicit bids from subs so as to package it all together.

1. 
   GHR | May 04, 2003 08:15pm | #15

   No. I work mostly for myself. When I work for others, I get time and material. When I hire subs, I pay time and material.

   My point was it is not worth my effort to bid on jobs or to ask for bids on jobs.

   For a person who is a one time GC it is not worth anyone's effort to do a bid.

   A better method is simply to do time and material on all subs.