some Basic Door Installation Questions
I have no doubt these questions have already been asked before … new builders come with new questions i guess.
I’m going to be buying/installing some basic exterior pre-hung doors in this structure I’m building. First thing I notice at HD is that they have doors prehung mostly for 2X4 construction even though everyone builds now 2×6 … they tell me they’re catering to the new-door-in-old-hole crowd. OK. So they have an ‘extender kit’ that increases teh width of the jambs and adds on a piece to the aluminum threshold. I say to the guy, “I can rip those jamb extenders myself, so now where do you keep the threshhold extenders?” Of course .. they don’t sell them so you have to buy the whole dumb kit for 35 bucks; three thin pieces of wood and one small strip of aluminum. Any suggestions on how I might get around this clearly intentional, minor, but irritatingly obvious rip-off?
Also … it’s six doors I’m after, all exterior — three of them go over/onto a cement slab and two of the six onto a wooden subfloor. Not yet knowing for certain what the final flooring will be is there a way to position the doors, heighth-wise so as to perfectly accomodate the final flooring to come? Or do you just take your best shot at guessing? I suppose the three that will go onto the bottom floor cement slab would be more difficult to prefigure as there is more eventual choice in how to finish off the cement. The wood subfloor beneath the other doors will likely simply have a final 3/4 wood flooring on them(?). Anyway … any tricks to this?
Thanks!
newb.
Replies
The trick is to shop at a real lumberyard. You order "6 9/16" jambs, setup, with aluminum sill" (mill finish or bronze, ears on the outside or not), color/type hinges, etc.
For height, if you have enough header height, doors work/look fine sitting on the subfloor or with 3/4" flooring added.
What woodguy said. Go to a real door supplier.
These type of doors typically have a sill high enough on the inside to accomodate most floor coverings, don't forget to check the rough opening height, exterior doors normally need a taller opening than interior doors.
_______________________________________________________________
"Man," said Terl, "is an endangered species."
A third vote to ditch Home Depot and use a "real" door supplier.
I recently replaced eight interior solid core doors and two exterior doors for a customer. Three of the interiors were non-standard widths, and both of the exteriors opened out instead of in. (Don't ask, ok? - lol)
I took a sketch of the floorplan and the opening dimensions to my door guy and it took all of thirty minutes to talk thru the job and place the order. A week later, the doors were delivered to the jobsite, and they all went in with no hassles.
The doors cost more than the HD doors, but I more than made it up on the hassle-free installation.
Dave45,
The doors cost more than the HD doors,
True, but they(HD) didn't have the right door to begin with, price HD vs. a real yard for the correct door needed and see where the big box comes out, not cheapest anymore, and usually more exspensive than the supply house!! plus the hassle of doing a special order thru HD ....oh lots of fun there!!!...........
newbuilder,
A fourth vote for a real lumberyard or door outfitter,.......also consider using sill pans for flashing the sills before you install the doors....try this one to start... http://www.jamsill.com about $25 for a 3'0 door in 6 9/16" jamb plus S&H...worth the investment
Geoff
It's not just that it's worth eliminating the hassle, the doors are generally higher quality. I had an engineer explain the difference in construction, and I never had a HO question the vendor again. No question that if you want the right stuff, you have to go to the "right place"!"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
My vote for the local door supplier or actual lumber yard.
After you get the HD doors then work around the problems then remove and add a bigger threshold how much time have you spent? This alone ought to buy you the other doors and besides they might be a better quality.
For example
not center of door, knob placement or only two hinges on interiors or poor quality brass plate hinges on the exterior. Some of these interior PH hollow core doors come now with barely 3/4" bottom and top wood under the venere and if for some reason you have to come back and trim the bottoms you can be in trouble.
My local supplier can show me the quality of what I'm getting and offer me several price points, even the cheaper imports if I need to meet an economy budget.
I know you didn't mention the interiors would be hollow core slabs and I have made a few assumptions but all in my effort like the rest to give a fair and balanced broad spectrum of ideas and thoughts.
Get the right size door. Putting jamb extensions on an exterior door cuts the swing down to about 110 degrees. Then where do you put the door stop?
Its also best to know at least the thickness of your finished floor, may save problems down the road.
Don't know if anyone has suggested it yet, but scrap HD and go to a REAL lumberyard.
(-:
Doesn't matter if the doors are cheaper at HD or not. The HO is paying for the doors, not you. Let 'em make your life easier by paying for what they really need in the first place.
Wow -- how izzit HD seems to be doing fine if nobody shops there!?
Some points: this is my own project -- a HUGE project -- and my budget is exTREEEMely limited and actually, as of very recently due to unrelated events, nearing depletion fast. I REALLY have to take it into serious consideration if I can save several hundred dollars on 6 doors. If, down the line a few years, I'm ridiculously flush .. then I'll go out and find some very cool doors that I'm nuts about and throw the original cheapies away. If this were for an HO it would/may be different ... but every cent of this is from me AND every bit of the work since I haven't the $$$ to hire anyone. So HD has been a good thing for me along those lines.
But also .. such a landslide of response to my mention of HD somewhat obscured my other question which I'd really appreciate some feedback on...which was:
Also ... it's six doors I'm after, all exterior --- three of them go over/onto a cement slab and two of the six onto a wooden subfloor. Not yet knowing for certain what the final flooring will be is there a way to position the doors, heighth-wise so as to perfectly accomodate the final flooring to come? Or do you just take your best shot at guessing? I suppose the three that will go onto the bottom floor cement slab would be more difficult to prefigure as there is more eventual choice in how to finish off the cement. The wood subfloor beneath the other doors will likely simply have a final 3/4 wood flooring on them(?). Anyway ... any tricks to this?
I do appreciate the responses --- anyone want to say anything about this?
Thanks again!
T.
You've been around BT long enough to know that we need all pertinent info to give a useful answer. You should have said that it was your own house. You've also been around BT long enough to know that the majority of folks here don't like the big boxes. I don't see that any chance that will change.
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"You've been around BT long enough ....... You should have said that it was your own house."
I used to always refer to the fact that "this is my own project I'm doing for myself" ... but the fact is that every question that I've ever asked here ... EVERY question! ... has related to my own project that I'm doing for myself since I'm basically building an entire (small-ish) house from the foundation up by myself with no previous experience. It started seeming odd to me to say that every single time so now I rarely do.
You've also been around BT long enough to know that the majority of folks here don't like the big boxes. I don't see that any chance that will change.
I've got no gripe with that and don't expect it to change. But in my circumstances they have often times proved helpful with late hours and competative pricing. There's no real need for me to share the disdain.
I had a legit question about doors. That's all I was really interested in. Thought this would be a fitting place to ask.
Thanks-
When you ask people what they think, they're gonna tell you. They aren't necessarilly gonna tell you what you want to hear. I don't doubt that every question you've posted has been about your own house. But I don't memorize the name and situation of every poster here on BT. Neither does anyone else. I'm not trying to be too hard on ya. I just think you got reasonable answers based on what you asked, how you asked it, and the info you presented.BTW - You've ALSO been around BT enough to know that you have to be a little thick skinned.
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You asked a legit question and got pretty straight answers. Exterior walls framed in 2x6s require doors with the appropriate frame depth, and if you don't want to pay the price required to get the doors, you are welcome to cob together any kind of frame and sill extension system you can buy or make.
But, don't expect to get any encouragement here. It is a lousy building practice to attempt this, and few Breaktimers would even consider doing it.
At Home Depot, you are shopping at the Wal-Mart of building materials. Those that shop there, are getting the products and service they want, and deserve.
"I had a legit question about doors. That's all I was really interested in. Thought this would be a fitting place to ask."And you got a legitamate answer. There ius no good reason to buy prehung doors from HD if they are hung in the wrong jamb for your walls. Buying the wrong product for a job will not save money no matter how cheap it is. It will cost you more in the long run.As for the thresholds, you are inquirting about a non-existant problem. A thresh is about 1-1/4" high so you can run 3/4" flooring up to it and still open the door in.
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I'm confused. If it's your house, and you're doing the entire project, do you not know what kind of flooring is being installed? Best way to make room for the flooring is to lay out a sample under the jambs when setting the doors, or to at least know the exact thickness.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
"Best way to make room for the flooring is to lay out a sample under the jambs when setting the doors, or to at least know the exact thickness."
Thanks for an actual answer to my straight question ... I appreciate it!
Yes .. this is my own project but I'm creating as I go. Yes, I have blueprints/plans enough that I got through permitting (at one point several months ago I posted pics of the plans here upon request) and have passed several inspections but there is NO indication or decision yet on specific flooring. The bottom floor is a well insulated slab, 20 X 30 feet. I have no idea how I'll end up finishing that out. Could actually just go with acid wash and accept living with the cement on that floor ... or .. could put in some sort of underlay with a finished flooring on it. On the floors above, as well, I haven't even begun to consider flooring yet. That's one of the elements of building for yourself ... you don't have to show anyone every single final thing before the project begins as things can be decided as it evolves. I'm not a commercial builder.
Thanks again.
T.
Hmmm...I understand your position, but obviously that complicates the door situation. If it were an interior door, it would be a clear-cut choice: leave the door installation until after the floors are decided and installed. Exterior doors obviously need to be in before working on the rest of the interior.
Is it a remodel? Are there already doors in place now that you are replacing? or is this from scratch?
If you have to install the new doors before deciding on the floor, you could always just take a ballpark guess at the height of the floor. If you lay down a 2x on the flat across the bottom of the door opening, then install the prehung exterior door on top, you would have a little bit of wiggle room to install the flooring afterwards. Then it's just a matter of choosing how you detail the borders of the floor where it meets the 2x "filler". Shoe molding might be all you need, in many cases. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
You probably don't want to hear this, but I'm another vote for going to a "real" lumber yard, not HD.
For a 2x4 door in a 2x6 wall, any extension jambs should really be installed on the exterior side of the door. The casings need to be removed, sill and jamb extensions installed, and casings replaced.
This can be easily orderd at a regular yard, but I'm not sure about HD. I've never taken the chance there.
You might be able to order the metal sill extension, and do the rest of the work yourself. And if time is less important than money, it could work for you. I'd rather order the door set up and ready to install.
About the floor- most of the new doors come with about a 1" to 1-1/4" high threshold, if memory serves. Like Justin said, you should decide, or at least anticipate, what finish floor you want. No sense in doing things twice if you don't have to.
Good luck with the house.
As an owner-builder, I did a lot of pricing, but when it came to doors, and after pricing at Creepo, the difference in price, plus I think better quality, was marginal at most. Then, given I had the doors hung with the help of the salesman's planning where there would be no need for extenders and what not, I think I came out ahead using the local door company here in town.
Plus, they pre-hung some doors for me that weren't even theirs for sale. I had to get a manager's approval, but given that I was spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars with them, it became a non-issue and really helped me out.
Ohhhh--you didn't say this was for your own house. In that case...go to a real lumberyard.
Or make your own. That's what I'll be doing for my own front door.
Regarding door height--unless you anticipate extra-high flooring, just set the door on the subfloor (plywood or osb) or concrete. If you anticipate extra-high flooring, shim the door up 1/2" or 3/4" or whatever you think you might need.
Those last few mssgs are to the point and helpful. I greatly appreciate it.
I'll truly attempt to bear in mind NOT to mention the box stores in my questions. I value this place for clarification from those with more experience than I -- have no intention of 'stirring things up'.
Thanks again to all who responded with helpful care -
T.
Don't get me wrong.
HD and Lowe's have their place.
But, IMO, getting anything from them that's not a stock item isn't a good idea.
I have a customer who I'll be installing an entry door for, to replace the old one. They found the same door from the same maker, at HD and at a local yard. The price was for a slab door, unhung and unbored. This is a Simpson Mastermark, mahogany with 3 skinny lites. The real yard got them a price in a day. HD took a week. HD's price on the door was $500 MORE than the other place. Customer was thrilled that I insisted he go to the local yard even after finding a pretty door at HD.So shop around. I use HD a lot, but not for traditional millwork. The service, quality, and pricing are all worse. Best of luck on your home.Bill
This from my response, #3 in this thread:
These type of doors typically have a sill high enough on the inside to accomodate most floor coverings
Your mileage may vary._______________________________________________________________
"Man," said Terl, "is an endangered species."
If you're just doing standard hardwood, carpet, or tile on top of a concrete or plywood subfloor, you will just set your door on the slab or subfloor. Then you'll just run your flooring into the threshold. You'll have at least an inch of height at the back of the threshold into which you can butt your flooring. If you're doing something really thick, though, you might have to bring the door up a quarter or half.
For interior doors, you will need to worry about how high the actual swinging door is above your finished floor height. You don't want to have 1/2" clearance from the subfloor to the door if you're putting carpet in the room. (Door height above the subfloor will depend on how the door was hung and how long the jambs are.)
You can still set your interior doors before flooring if you want to cut the jambs/casing or if you want to cut your tile to fit around a jamb/casing. It's certainly up to you and there isn't really a WRONG way...just more efficient ways, which you'll find out along the way.
Newb,
If you insist on HD doors, why don't you just buy the door without the frame. Then go to a real door store and get your frames and sills. At a real door store, they're going to ask the right questions, make the right suggestions, and may even come out to the house and measure for you!
I don't think you'll pay a nickel more than HD would charge, and you may pay LESS.
As far as the height of the sill, most aluminum sills are adjustable anyway, so you won't need to give it too much thought. This is just my opinion, but if you are already thinking about doors, you should already be thinking about your finished floors.
"Roger Staubach for President"
Good luck trying to get an exterior slab at HD, I don't believe they stock them.
NB,
Not yet knowing for certain what the final flooring will be is there a way to position the doors, heighth-wise so as to perfectly accomodate the final flooring to come? Or do you just take your best shot at guessing?(bold my emphasis)
Re-read your statement above. I don't think this is at all possible for you to do.
However, I would say that unless you are building a ADA compliant/wheelchair accessible house, the final height of the threshold isn't that critical. Better to have it an inch too high than to have the door rub on the floor mat every time you open the door. If you are considering tile or hardwood, install a min. 3/4" additional onto the subfloor and then set the PH door unit on top of that. As for carpet, laminate, vinyl or nothing a typ. PH door can sit on the subfloor/concrete w/o problem.
I have been in your situation when framing and not knowing what the finished floor will be. I usually put my headers at the top of the wall and frame down to the opening. That way if you have to adjust the opening due to flooring, you are only cutting out a 2x4 not trying to trim a header or rip it out and replace it. BTDT.
I also understand that your labor doesn't directly impact the checkbook so you may be willing to expend more time to install/modify a less expensive product rather than spending more $$ to save yourself time.
As a carpenter who charges for my time, I/we look to products that can save time during installation, not necessarily the cheapest material. Spending an extra hour to modify the jambs is likely to cost more in labor than just ordering the correct size door. Thus, the overwhelming response to go to a lumber yard who can supply what you need.
In Seattle, surely you have other options beyond HD. Maybe the other BB stores stock 6 9/16 jambs. If not, install your ext. jambs on the exterior.
Best of luck
not to beat up on you to much, but you posted and asked.. "I can rip those jamb extenders myself, so now where do you keep the threshhold extenders?" Of course .. they don't sell them so you have to buy the whole dumb kit for 35 bucks; three thin pieces of wood and one small strip of aluminum. Any suggestions on how I might get around this clearly intentional, minor, but irritatingly obvious rip-off?
The answer is.... go to a door supplier or local lumber yard, not HD.
Look at it this way, the less time (and money, gas, and headaches) you spend F**ng around w/jamb extensions and sill extenders, the more time you can put into earning more $ to finish the house!
Geoff
Check your local codes. Our code requires interior doors to have 3/4" clear from the top of any flooring to the bottom of the door, for air circulation. Most pre-hung doors come with 1 1/2" of jamb below the door that you must cut down or shim depending on which flooring you use.
Do it once, do it right, after all, it's YOUR house.
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